Electric Shock from bad water heater element

jimtoo

Moderator
I know our RV's are put to a test or supposed to be made to meet certain specifications, which is good and for our protection. Now if the RV parks could be subjected to a ,, maybe inspection each year to make sure things are maintained correctly. I think it would eliminate a lot of burned fuses, microwaves, TV's and other electrical problems and serious accidents. Just a thought... I know we would end up paying more for camping... but .. how much is a life worth.

Electricity is nothing to mess with, you can't see it, you can't hear it and when you feel it,,,,, it's usually to late.

Jim M
 

jmsokol

Active Member
Mike - will you have a booth?
No, but I'll be doing a guest appearance with Gary Bunzer (the RV Doctor) and will be presenting a short hot-skin demonstration (small scale) during his AC electricity class on Thursday. I could also do a full-scale hot-skin demonstration during the day if there's room for it and a RV to use. As you all can imagine it's a pretty dangerous stunt, so I'll only do it in a roped off area or enclosed shop.

I'll also be around the Hershey show all day kicking tires and hanging out with Chuck Woodbury (RVtravel.com) and Gary B.
 

jmsokol

Active Member
I know our RV's are put to a test or supposed to be made to meet certain specifications, which is good and for our protection. Now if the RV parks could be subjected to a ,, maybe inspection each year to make sure things are maintained correctly. I think it would eliminate a lot of burned fuses, microwaves, TV's and other electrical problems and serious accidents. Just a thought... I know we would end up paying more for camping... but .. how much is a life worth.

Electricity is nothing to mess with, you can't see it, you can't hear it and when you feel it,,,,, it's usually to late.

Jim M
I agree... and have pitched the idea of RV park electrical inspections to a lot of park organizations and franchises, but nobody wants me to look at their pedestals. They're afraid I'm going to find something wrong that would cost money to fix. I do have a pretty robust test that should take less than 5 minutes per pedestal to complete (maybe less). So if there's 200 campsites in an RV park that's basically 10 hours of work to check the entire park if you're moving it. I'm not sure how much a certified RV tech or retired Master Electrician costs per hour ($25 to $50 off book, maybe) so that's a minimum of $250 to $500 for an inspection once a year. Smaller RV parks could be done in half a day. You could amortize that inspection cost over the rentals all year, and it would add less than a dollar per day to your camping day-rate (a lot less in most instances).
 
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rick_debbie_gallant

Well-known member
I agree... and have pitched the idea of RV park electrical inspections to a lot of park organizations and franchises, but nobody wants me to look at their pedestals. They're afraid I'm going to find something wrong that would cost money to fix. I do have a pretty robust test that should take less than 5 minutes per pedestal to complete (maybe less). So if there's 200 campsites in an RV park that's basically 10 hours of work to check the entire park if you're moving it. I'm not sure how much a certified RV tech or retired Master Electrician costs per hour ($25 to $50 off book, maybe) so that's a minimum of $250 to $500 for an inspection once a year. Smaller RV parks could be done in half a day. You could amortize that inspection cost over the rentals all year, and it would add less than a dollar per day to your camping day-rate (a lot less in most instances).

I am very surprised that A: the parks liability insurance does not require it. B: The local code enforcement agency does not require it. C: The state does not require it. I am talking about some sort of electrical certification. And while I am at it, make sure the sanitary system is up to par as well as the fresh water source.

Yes I am sure it would increase the cost of staying at a given place, but what is a life or lives worth? Just my nickles worth.
 

jbeletti

Well-known member
No, but I'll be doing a guest appearance with Gary Bunzer (the RV Doctor) and will be presenting a short hot-skin demonstration (small scale) during his AC electricity class on Thursday. I could also do a full-scale hot-skin demonstration during the day if there's room for it and a RV to use. As you all can imagine it's a pretty dangerous stunt, so I'll only do it in a roped off area or enclosed shop.

I'll also be around the Hershey show all day kicking tires and hanging out with Chuck Woodbury (RVtravel.com) and Gary B.

Mike,

Gary B is cool, so I am sure you are too :)

I'll plan to sit in on your presentation. Replied to your email with my contact into. I'll be at the show all week.
 

wdk450

Well-known member
Sorry to keep adding to the pile of posts on this thread, but two ideas occurred to me. First of all, we should establish some period of time to proactively change out the RV water heater element - Maybe every 5 years? An electrical test to see if they are electrically leaky is a little involved, and a visual inspection might miss the tiny pinholes that can cause electrical current leakage. This scheduled replacement is not as important in a home electric water heater, because its wiring is permanent and fixed.

The second idea is that this electrical leakage hazard cannot exist if there is no hot electric power to the water heater. Specifically keep the red water heater switch turned off unless you really need it. Think about just making hot water with propane.
 

evolvingpowercat

Well-known member
Who knows, there may be hundreds or thousands of RV hot water heaters with electric heating elements that have the pin hole failures that can cause electricty to be in contact with the water in the tank. If the RV is connected to a good ground one would never know it was occurring as the current flow thru the water would never be enough to trip the hot water heater non-GFCI type circuit breaker. There might be some minor voltage on the RV metal body parts due to some voltage rise due to the resistance of the saftey ground path to the power panel where neutral and saftey ground were bonded and tied to earth ground but it likely would not even be enough to trigger a non-contact voltage tester.

I think only a camper disconnected from all AC power resistance measurement from the heating element terminals to ground would indicate that the hot water heating element insulation to water had failed. I am sure there is some manufacturer's spec that it should read "higher than X" if all is good.

All the more reason that RV electric hot water heaters should have GFCI protection built into them like the AC hot water heaters in hot tubs have to have.
 
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wdk450

Well-known member
I think only a camper disconnected from all AC power resistance measurement from the heating element terminals to ground would indicate that the hot water heating element insulation to water had failed. I am sure there is some manufacturer's spec that it should read "higher than X" if all is good.

Actually there is a piece of test equipment that is used at every hospital, and is available to electrical equipment manufacturers. It is called an Electrical Safety Tester. The U.S. version is for 110 Volt A.C., 20 amp maximum line cord equipments. The tester has an outlet into which the device to be tested is plugged in, and a single wire testing cable with a clip connector. The clip connector is connected to a device under test's external grounded point, either a metal chassis point, or a ground post specifically for this testing. By manipulating the switches on the tester you can read the resistance of the device's power cord ground circuit to the test outlet, open the ground circuit going to the test outlet and simultaneously read the leakage current present on the now ungrounded equipment case. You can do these tests with both a normally wired (hot and neutral) and reverse wired testing outlet (to simulate the device being plugged into a reverse wired wall outlet).

We used this same tester in a different configuration along with some saline solution in a basin to check TransEsophogeal Ultrasound probes (put down the throat) for the same sort of pinholes like those in water heater elements that could cause excessive electrical leakage. BTW the fail spec for this leakage used at a point within the body near the heart is 20/100000 of an ampere. (20uA) We are currently talking here about external shock currents of about 5 milliamperes - about 250 times as much.


The ultrasound probes were usually damaged by patients biting them. Repair/replacement was $10,000 and up, each.
 

jmsokol

Active Member
Sorry to keep adding to the pile of posts on this thread, but two ideas occurred to me. First of all, we should establish some period of time to proactively change out the RV water heater element - Maybe every 5 years? An electrical test to see if they are electrically leaky is a little involved, and a visual inspection might miss the tiny pinholes that can cause electrical current leakage. This scheduled replacement is not as important in a home electric water heater, because its wiring is permanent and fixed.

The second idea is that this electrical leakage hazard cannot exist if there is no hot electric power to the water heater. Specifically keep the red water heater switch turned off unless you really need it. Think about just making hot water with propane.
You're tending to fixate on the hot-water heater failure, when that's not the real issue here. The primary problem is that the RV has obviously lost its safety ground bonding thru the power outlet. This allows the RV's chassis and body to float to whatever voltage ANY appliance connected to its electrical system will create. So if the safety-ground bond is broken, either from corroded/loose bonding screw in the RV's panel, a broken ground wire in the shore power cable/pigtail/dog-bone, or a loose/corroded/missing safety-ground wire in the power outlet it's plugged into, then replacing the water heater element pro-actively is like putting a band-aid on a bullet wound without removing the lead. If you don't have a continuous, low-impedance ground-fault path back to the campground's or house's service panel grounding-bond point, then the next time your microwave, toaster oven, fridge, stereo system, battery inverter/charger (anything, really) develops an internal electrical leakage with a fault-to-ground, your RV's chassis/skin will once again rise to 60 or 120 volts and present a shock hazard to anybody touching it.

If you have a properly grounded/bonded RV (via its shore power connection, NOT a ground rod driven in the earth next to it), then it should be impossible for any internal leakage failure of the RV's appliances or electrical system to create a hot-skin condition. Just can't happen.

Of course, GFCI's are supposed to detect fault currents that result from a person touching an energized object while "earthing" it, but remember at campgrounds GFCI's are typically only required on the 20 amp service, NOT the 30 and 50 amp services. That's means the pedestal won't offer you any active hot-skin safety on the 30/50 outlet. It only creates a passive ground/bond system that will drain away any currents created by appliance failure. Break that passive ground/bond connection FOR ANY REASON and you're now playing Russian Roulette the next time any appliance has an internal hot-to-chassis wiring condition from heat, vibration, or a wire pinched under a bolt. Since you can't replace and test the entire RV's electrical system and appliance every few years, then you're depending on the safety ground/bond to protect your life.

This is exactly how the electrical code was designed and written, and if it's followed then you should always be safe when touching your RV. But if you violate the code with non-existent safety grounds in your shore power outlet (the original OP's problem, I would guess) then you're risking the lives of your family and friends who touch your RV.

I'm sorry if this sounds like something nobody wants to worry about or that it seems too complicated, but when you plug your RV into ANYTHING, you personally become a junior electrician of sorts, and need to verify that the voltage and grounding is correct. Yes, if the campground's electrician (or the DIY guy who wired your garage outlet) did it correctly, and your shore power cords and adapters are regularly inspected and maintained, it shouldn't be an issue. But it only takes that 1 in a 1,000 chance to create the right conditions for an RV hot-skin. You can stretch those odds in your favor by visibly inspecting and quickly testing outlets for grounds and incorrect voltages before you plug in, and knowing that your should NEVER feel a shock from your RV. Electrical knowledge is power.

Much more on this later after the Hershey show. :cool:
 
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jmsokol

Active Member
Actually there is a piece of test equipment that is used at every hospital, and is available to electrical equipment manufacturers. It is called an Electrical Safety Tester.
Yup, I actually have four different testers for my grounding experiments. Originally called a GLIT (Ground Loop Impedance Tester) my first Circuit Tester from the 70's was made by a UK company called Woodhead. I now also have an Ideal SureTest, an Amprobe INSP-3, and an Extech CT-70 on my test bench. These are all in the $200 to $300 range and do a good job of testing for ground continuity (low impedance) but all can be fooled by an RPBG outlet (read my description of testing for an RPBG earlier in this thread).

The quickest and simplest way to detect an RV hot-skin condition is by using a NCVT (Non Contact Voltage Tester) as I've described earlier. It's safe, quick, and should detect 99% of all RV hot-skin conditions. See picture below. Yes, your RV might be a little bigger, but this is my Class B- example. :)

And while a Surge/Voltage protector on your RV will protect you from MANY or even MOST electrical failure conditions, it simply can't protect you from ALL failure conditions, especially a reflected hot-skin condition. If that occurs a Surge/Voltage protector will disconnect you from the pedestal circuit breakers, but your RV skin could still be electrified from another RV's hot-skin condition on the same campground loop as you. Of course, if the RV campground's pedestals are properly wired and bonded to the incoming safety-ground/neutral point, you will NEVER develop a reflected hot-skin condition. Separate ground rods at each campsite are not only next to useless, they're a violation of the National Electrical Code if not double-bonded back to the service entrance ground/bond point.

Staying safe around electricity takes personal training and safety awareness.
 

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jmsokol

Active Member
If any of you will be at the Hershey RV show next month, I'll be making a guest appearance with Gary Bunzer (the RV Doctor) at his AC voltage seminar on Saturday Sept 15th where I'll be demonstrating hot-skin testing. I'll also be hanging around the show all day kicking tires, so if you see my name badge (Mike Sokol) give me a shout. :cool:
 

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jmsokol

Active Member
No, but I'll be doing a guest appearance with Gary Bunzer (the RV Doctor) and will be presenting a short hot-skin demonstration (small scale) during his AC electricity class on Thursday. I could also do a full-scale hot-skin demonstration during the day if there's room for it and a RV to use. As you all can imagine it's a pretty dangerous stunt, so I'll only do it in a roped off area or enclosed shop.

I'll also be around the Hershey show all day kicking tires and hanging out with Chuck Woodbury (RVtravel.com) and Gary B.

My day at the Hershey RV show with Gary Bunzer has changed to Saturday. I'll be doing a No~Shock~Zone presentation sometime during his 5 PM to 7 PM time slot on AC power.

Are any of you going to be there? If so, say hello if you see me. :D
 

jbeletti

Well-known member
My day at the Hershey RV show with Gary Bunzer has changed to Saturday. I'll be doing a No~Shock~Zone presentation sometime during his 5 PM to 7 PM time slot on AC power.

Are any of you going to be there? If so, say hello if you see me. :D


Sorry to hear your slot changed. Do Show attendees stay that late for seminars?
 

jmsokol

Active Member
I'll be around the Hershey show all day on Saturday, and Gary B. says the Saturday seminars are the best attended. However, if anybody else has a booth at the show and would like me to do a 15 minute No~Shock~Zone demonstration sometime during the day, send me a PM.
 

jmsokol

Active Member
I'll be around the Hershey show all day on Saturday, and Gary B. says the Saturday seminars are the best attended. However, if anybody else has a booth at the show and would like me to do a 15 minute No~Shock~Zone demonstration sometime during the day, send me a PM.
I see there was another electrocution death in the news. This happened to a women who jumped into an irrigation ditch shile trying to save a dog being shocked by bad irrigation pump wiring. Then the two men who tried to save her were electrocuted and died as well. http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/3-electrocuted-in-idaho-ditch;-1-tried-to-save-dog

I'm thinking about adding a pet electrical safety module to my No~Shock~Zone seminar since there's been a lot of pet deaths from hot-skin shocks recently.
 
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