In motor vehicles, the gross trailer weight rating (GTWR) is the total mass of a road trailer that is loaded to capacity, including the weight of the trailer itself
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In motor vehicles, the gross trailer weight rating (GTWR) is the total mass of a road trailer that is loaded to capacity, including the weight of the trailer itself
branson4020
Icantre Member
So is it a rating, like GVWR, or a measured value, like GVW?
DW_Gray
Well-known member
Sure Paul,
It can be confusing and I hope I can help you with that.
The answer for GTWR under the "Hitch Information" (as shown on FifthWheelSt.com) is the maximum weight that the hitch is allowed to tow. The hitch GTWR is provided by the manufacturer and it's usually stamped on the hitch or located on a label attached to the hitch. When purchasing a 5th wheel hitch, the minimum hitch GTWR should be no less than equal to or greater than the 5th wheel trailer's GVWR. (Example: The 5th wheel trailer's GVWR is 18,000 pounds. The 5th wheel hitch's GTWR should be no less than 18,000 pounds. Personally, I would recommend a 5th wheel hitch with 15-20 percent added GTWR, such as 20K to 22K GTWR.)
Now, as for the Sundance and all 5th wheels, "Hitch Weight" shown on websites and in brochures is the same as the 5th wheel's pin weight. This is the amount of weight that is applied to the 5th wheel on your hitch from the trailer's pin box. This is the actual measurement taken just before the trailer leaves the factory. Therefore when you load your trailer, the hitch weight or pin weight will be different than what is published.
It is a rating
The way I undestand it is that is the total weight you can scale for the unit. The hitch should be rated for that amount. TT plus added weight should be less than the 16,000 or whatever the number is on the sticker which should reflect the properly installed hitch to match that amount of weight. Someone else has some thoughts chime in.
Gotcha. So when trying to see how close you will be to the GVWR for your tow vehicle, you don't use GTWR of the hitch, you use "hitch weight" along with actual gross truck weight keeping in mind that hitch weight can be a variable number based on the actual weight of the loaded trailer. Thanks!
pegmikef
Well-known member
That's an understatement, the part about confusing.
We are looking to go from a TT to a small fiver and I am looking at the BH3055RL or the BH3070RL because of their size. The specs say that the dry weight of each is just under 11,000 pounds and 14,000 pounds loaded. The hitch weight (pin weight) is 2,000 and 2,300 pounds respectively, not loaded. I looked at the calculator towing guide and it says I can tow a fiver weighing a little over 16,000 pounds. So on the surface this looks ok to me.
I have a 2011 F250, 6.7 L, 3.31 rearend, crew cab. The GAWR (front) is 5200, GAWR (rear) 6100, and GVWR 10,000. I don't really understand all of these numbers, but I do understand the label "The total weight of occupants and cargo should never exceed 2404 pounds" so I guess my question is how can I have a pin weight of 2300 pounds on an occupied truck and that doesn't even include the weight of the hitch . . . or is there a different measurement for that? Help, because I would really like to keep this truck even if I have to add air bags or some other modification. Thanks
DW_Gray
Well-known member
Mike,
First of all let me make it clear, the Fifth Wheel St. Calculator was not designed for nor should be used as a what if calculator to learn what you can tow. The Fifth Wheel St. Calculator sole purpose is to weigh what you have and verify that the rig is not over weight or to learn what section of the rig is overweight.
I know the answer to your question. But if you will bear with me for a little while I'd like you to use the correct resources on FifthWheelSt.com.
First, read my article, "Before You Buy - It's not rocket science."
Second, read one of the worksheets and it will explain the GAWR, GVWR, etc.
After you've completed that, please respond and let me know if you were able to reach your answer and understand. If I failed provide enough information to answer your questions, I want to know about it. I will make any necessary improvements.
pegmikef
Well-known member
Dave,
Thanks for the response and your articles and site are very informative and helpful (not that I am thrilled with the results). I didn't weigh the rear axle (I should have read your article yesterday), but I did weigh my truck today with a full tank and a camper cap. I figure the cap weight is about the same as a hitch would be so that's a wash. The weight empty is 7600 pounds, so adding DW and I, dog and stuff, it will be 8200 pounds while the GVWR is 10000 pounds. If the pin weight is added to the 8200 pounds then I'm already over the GVWR with either BH before I even put a salt shaker in the coach, let alone a couple of generators and stuff. On the other hand, assuming we load the coach to its max (14000 pounds) then I would only be a little over 1000 pounds under the GCWR 23500 pounds (not a big margin).
At my age I'm more into overkill than I am to marginal when it comes to functional capabilities, so to me I have three options:
1) Stick with the North Trail and ignore complaints about small bedroom.
2) Wait for the new Big Horn Silverado to be available, but I understand that there might be a quality issue (when compared to Big Horn quality)
3) Pursue plan to get Big Horn 3055 or 3070 and bite the bullet and get a bigger TV.
Do you think I am correct or do I have to go weigh my rear axle and look at that separately?
Thanks again for the education.
DW_Gray
Well-known member
You're correct with your assessment although some may disagree. You could weigh the rear axle if you want to but I'm confident that there is not enough room for the BH pin weight. You have a truck with good tow rating but it is designed for a different style of trailer. [Trailers,] if I recall correctly, are designed so that 60% of the [trailer length is in front of the center-line of the axle system.] You could easily tow a heavy trailer that [will allow you to shift the load to the rear so that the pin weight will decrease.] I suppose if you loaded all your gear in the rear of the BH, you may be able to decrease the pin weight some. But I don't foresee you trying that.
I commend you for considering all the issues with towing safety.
Note: After considerable discussion in the background, I revised my statement above to reflect an accurate response.
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DW_Gray
Well-known member
Mike, there is still one other option you could do. You can add air bags and or springs to increase the load capacity on the rear axle. Doing so will add additional weight to the rear end so you have to take that into consideration. Many owners have done this. If you decide to increase the load capacity keep in mind too the GCWR. I can't be sure but I think you'll be fine if you did this. BUT, like I've said before, increasing the rear axle load capacity will not legally change the certification label for the truck. So that would be your legal risk.
Also as I've said before, according to CHP (CA), as long as they have no reason to believe you're in violation of the CERT label or you don't appear to be over your load capacity, they will not stop you. I'm sure thousands are getting away with this.
Travel safe.
Also as I've said before, according to CHP (CA), as long as they have no reason to believe you're in violation of the CERT label or you don't appear to be over your load capacity, they will not stop you. I'm sure thousands are getting away with this.
Travel safe.
pegmikef
Well-known member
Thanks Dave, now I know what questions to ask when I start looking for the new TV.
Oops, looks like we crossed there. I thought about air bags, but since they would not change the GVWR, I kind of thought they would be more useful for leveling rather than defeating the manufacturer's weight bearing capabilities. I don't know if this is correct from a safety standpoint.
Oops, looks like we crossed there. I thought about air bags, but since they would not change the GVWR, I kind of thought they would be more useful for leveling rather than defeating the manufacturer's weight bearing capabilities. I don't know if this is correct from a safety standpoint.
DW_Gray
Well-known member
You're welcome Mike. With the new load capacities of the late 2011s and new 2012 3500/350 model trucks, you can't go wrong. You're biggest decision will most likely be SRW or DRW.
hcriddle
Well-known member
Mike and Dave,
I don't know if this will help in your calculations but when I weighed at the rally in June I was at 13775 on the trailer. I have a 2002 F250 diesel and my GAWR are similar to yours, 4800 on the front and 6048 on the rear. My pin weight was 2900 and the axles weights with the trailer came out to 4725 front and 6000 rear. I am over on the GVWR and the GCWR and my GVWR is 8800 with GCWR at 20000. Hope this gives you a little help in what yours might come out to. If you were fully loaded on the 3070 at 14000 you might have a problem but you might be within limits if you were pulling without anything in the tanks and loaded for shorter trips. Just thought I would give you guys some more numbers to look at.
I don't know if this will help in your calculations but when I weighed at the rally in June I was at 13775 on the trailer. I have a 2002 F250 diesel and my GAWR are similar to yours, 4800 on the front and 6048 on the rear. My pin weight was 2900 and the axles weights with the trailer came out to 4725 front and 6000 rear. I am over on the GVWR and the GCWR and my GVWR is 8800 with GCWR at 20000. Hope this gives you a little help in what yours might come out to. If you were fully loaded on the 3070 at 14000 you might have a problem but you might be within limits if you were pulling without anything in the tanks and loaded for shorter trips. Just thought I would give you guys some more numbers to look at.
DW_Gray
Well-known member
Mike, I thought of one other issue with your truck. The springs may be a small issue or not an issue at all. I think the real issue with your current truck is the axle ratio. If you could change the ratio to 3.73 or better, that would make a world of difference. I noticed that Ford does not offer that as a option on the 2500. Shame on them. And to make matters worse for you is you have new truck still under warranty. I've, "Been there, done that."
As you see, there is so much to consider when matching up a vehicle to an RV.
As you see, there is so much to consider when matching up a vehicle to an RV.
It's a great tool to use Dave but I think you need to change the way the formulas calculate so that they so are a little less confusing. What I mean by that is once you have entered all your weight data and clicked the Process Button the report shows the Safety Margin vs. Overload number backwards.
My front axle rating is 4800 and scaled weight at 4980; report shows that I'm -180 which to me means I'm 180 lbs under rating. Of course I'm not. The same is true for all the weights/ratings that I'm under; they are positive numbers. Meaning I'm over. See what I'm saying. The green and red color code is OK but you need to print it out on a color printer for them to show. Then when you try to explain the numbers and what they all mean to others they are confused that a negative weight is bad and a positive weight is good.
My front axle rating is 4800 and scaled weight at 4980; report shows that I'm -180 which to me means I'm 180 lbs under rating. Of course I'm not. The same is true for all the weights/ratings that I'm under; they are positive numbers. Meaning I'm over. See what I'm saying. The green and red color code is OK but you need to print it out on a color printer for them to show. Then when you try to explain the numbers and what they all mean to others they are confused that a negative weight is bad and a positive weight is good.
DW_Gray
Well-known member
John, Thank you for your feedback. I will take that into consideration. When I developed this report, I choose to mirror the similar report that the RVSEF produces. They also use the -180 as an overweight number. Maybe I should just eliminate the negative sign and just show it as green or red. Do you think that would clear up any confusion?
pegmikef
Well-known member
Yep, but I am kind of getting used to it since I traded in my 2010 F150 off on my current truck when we moved from an Edge to the North Trail. We are just getting back into this and are still trying to decide what we really want (by eliminating things we have tried). Hehehe, looking like the kids' inheritance might be fixin to take another hit
TravelTiger
Founding Texas-West Chapter Leaders-Retired
Mike, I wish you could have looked at an ElkRidge at the Rally, we love the space and it's probably more in line with the weights you need for a 2500 truck. Not as much of the "luxury" of the BigHorn, but an upgrade from the NorthTrail (no slam on the NT, we had one and loved it!)
If I were upgrading, it's a tough call... I like parts of each of the Big Horn, Big Country, and Landmark, but none "blow away" the ElkRidge enough for me to shell out the $$$$$!
E
If I were upgrading, it's a tough call... I like parts of each of the Big Horn, Big Country, and Landmark, but none "blow away" the ElkRidge enough for me to shell out the $$$$$!
E
