German Fifth Wheeler need help with brakes

[Filou]

Hi together

Someone maybe remember me on my last thread about a towing vehicle.

Now i'm back in germany with my combination. F350 SC SB and BH 3755FL.
It was quiet a hard fight to get the combination on the streets in germany. But I almost make it.
The F350 is street legal now. It has yellow flashers, full airride, new odometer and what ever it needs. And an air supply system for the trailer brakes.
The hardest fight was to reach the length limitaion of 54ft an 2". I had to push the fifth wheel hitch 1" to the front to reach it. The hole combination was 1" too long.
The rest of the BH 3755FL is nearlly also legal. New electric with 230V 16A 50Hz. Power Inlet is a 230V 16A with out the ACs or 380V 32A with both AC's. New gassystem, because plastic tubes are not allowd here for gas. New TV System with autotrack Sat-Dish and other parts.
At least I spend 17000$ for the conversions.

But the is one last thing do. The brakes of the Fifth Wheel. I had done the EoH Conversion in the USA an it works really fine. But it don't reach the german rules.
I must build in air brakes. And not any kind of air brakes. I must build in a 2-Line Disc airbrake with Antilock and automatic loadsensing brake valve. Like in every commercial huch semi-trailer.
Of curse i can go to the next Truck and Trailer Dealer and let a german system build in. But its extremly expensive and they need to cut things away at the frame of the BH. Everthing new. New axles, new suspension, new rims, new tires and so long. In germany is the Disc, Hub and Rim-center one unit. The truck rims has a boldpattern of 250-300mm diameters.

Is over there in the USA a airbrakesystem with Discs, Backplate and Caliper the will fit into the Hispec 07 8 Spoke 17.5x6.75 Rims?

Greetings Filou

 

[wdk450]

I have never heard of Air brakes on an RV trailer. Your EOH Disk(?) brakes are as good as I know of for RV trailers.
You might try talking to Eastern Marine, who have a listing of air brake parts with all of their other all size trailer brake parts. http://www.easternmarine.com/em_store/trailerbrakes/air_brakes.html

I spent 18 months in rural Schwesig-Holstien at a tiny Naval Security Group/Bundeswher combined base on the Baltic sea in the early 1970s. I doubt if the narrow two lane roads everywhere (including through the middle of the villages) has improved much. Good luck with a Bighorn on those!

I hope you can make this work.

 

[Filou]

It doesn't matter how good the brakes are. The brakes have to full fill the rules. The BH is too heavy to drive without ABS/Antilock and is too heavy to have brakes with brakefluides. Vehicles of any kind with more than 7716lbs must have airpowered brakes and over 11000lbs it must have the Antilock/ABS system. And it must have a automatic loadsensing brakevalve.
Thats just the rules.

The TBC in the USA have the manualsettings to compensate loads on the trailer. Here the trailer must do it by itsself. A trailer with leafsprings for example has a brakevalve on the Frame with a connection to the axle. When the load compress the leafsprings, the connection opens the brakevalve more and more air pressure is send to the brakes.
When i get it right, you Americans need a extra airbrake license to drive vehicles or combinations with airbrakes. Here its included in the licenses for vehicles over 7716lbs.

And don't be worried about the sizes of the streets and the BH. I will jump from campingground to campingground. They are nearlly all outside the villages and towns. I can take every street that a normal truck with trailer can take and that are 90% of all streets. Okay, narrow residental citystreets are not made for those vehicles but all mainstreets, overlandstreets and autobahn.
Just keep watching your vehicle and the surrounding area.
When there is a problem, than at the bridges. Not every bridge is 13ft 2" high.
The possible dimensions of the comination are pretty maxed out. Maximum length and height, and 2" left in the wide.

 

[Filou]

Maybe i have an idea.
The bracket can be custom made. And i found a airbrake caliper that can be build in without cutting into the frame. The Wabco Maxx 17.
What i now need is a 13x1.34 inch Disc with a 8x6.5 inch Boltpattern.
I found many 13inch discs but noone tell me the thickness of the discs.
Can you help me?

 

[jnbhobe]

Did you look at Kodiak and Dexter?

 

[marvmarcy]

There is an air disk brake conversion for recreation trailers called Blue Dot. You can find information on the internet, but email me (marvmarcy@me.com) and I'll get you in contact with the experts. There is a group of us with heavy duty road trucks that keep in touch. Many of this group with very heavy fifth wheel trailers have the done the Blue Dot air brake conversion, most did it themselves or with help of others in our group.

 

[cookie]

Here is a link to the Bludot system. (LINK)
Air/Hydraulic with ABS.

Peace
Dave

 

[porthole]

Here is a link to the Bludot system. (LINK)
Air/Hydraulic with ABS.

Peace
Dave

So, if you are not running a MD or HD truck with air brakes, what is the benefit of air over hydraulic versus electric over hydraulic?
The only thing that comes to mind is that with air, the loss of air supply applies the brakes. With electric the loss of DC power results in the loss of brakes. Air over brakes will fail applied, electric over will fail released.
I see with the kit Dave linked to that you will need to supplement the air over hydraulic with mechanical parking brakes.

 

[Filou]

The BH will get a System similar to the TA8242. 4S/2M ABS with brakevalve for airrides. A bigger airtank to supply the brakes and the air suspension. The F350 has a 2.5KW compressor with an airtank to supply the brakes of the trailer and the airride in the F350.
At least i will have 3 trailer plugs in the bed and the Air brake plugs. One 4 pin plug for the ABS with control line. A Jaeger 13 pin plug for the trailer lights and one charge line for the batteries in the trailer. And a third plug for the second charge line, the rearview camera and other needed controls and lines.

Why should i choose AoH brakes when i have air all around in the vehicles. And of course the BH is here to heavy for AoH or EoH brakes.
Just try to get a european TT on american Streets and you will see what i mean.

 

[marvmarcy]

The Blue Dot is only part of the whole braking system, and it can be installed several ways. Those with hdts can use the the truck air or not. The trailer onboard system consists of hydraulic disc brakes, such as those made by Dexter, Kodiak or others; a Blue Dot proportional air actuation system to apply the hydraulic brakes; and an air holding tank for pressure to apply the brakes and for the emergency/parking brake. The trailer air source can be an onboard pump or the truck air. Actuation is usually by electric signal from a proportional brake controller in the truck.

To the U.S. folks: This isn't normally used with ldts with trailers under 20,000#, but by the mdt/hdt owners that pull much heavier trailers with hydraulic disc brakes. The Blue Dots affords a significant improvement in braking.

 

[Filou]

Thats the effective Problem here in germany. The direct power to run the brakes must be come from the TV. The compressor build in the trailer is not legal.
But othercountries, other rules.

But my problem is still to find Discs with 330x34mm with a boltpattern of 8x6.5

 

[wdk450]

But my problem is still to find Discs with 330x34mm with a boltpattern of 8x6.5

Could a machine shop alter something existing to fit your requirements?

 

[Filou]

I'm looking around to find a manufacturer with raw discs without a boltpattern. But with the allowance of the BAM and STVZO, our governmental instances for vehicle parts.
Every brake part is a high safety part and must have this surveys.

Thought in the USA would exist a matching Disc. Wabco and Meritor are european manufacturers and they are also selling parts in the USA.
13x1.34 inch is the standard disc for 17.5 inch rims on mid duty trucks.

 

[porthole]

FIlou, seeing if I get this correct. You need air operated disc brakes. But, the air brakes have to be true air brakes like OTR trucks, not an air brake system applying hydraulic pressure to operate. Is this correct?

 

[Filou]

Yes, you are right. I need them on the BH.
But actual i just need Discs/Rotor in 300×34mm with a Boltpattern of 8x6.5. I have 8000lbs Dexter axles with hubs and Hispec 17.5" Rims with 225/75R17.5 Michelins. It has air suspension. It will get Wabco Maxx 17 calipers with tristop cylinders and custom brackets.
If i can find those Discs.