Never Lube wheel bearings
- Thread starter Bob Vaughn
- Start date
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
Porthole; you are thinking that this "double roller" bearing is an inner and outer bearing. It is not. It is a single bearing commonly know as a double tapered roller bearing. Timken calls it a 2 row non adjustable, or a two row double outer race. The bore is identical on both sides.
It most definitely takes the place of a traditional wheel bearing assembly, but it is a compromise between ease of manufacturing, less machine work and puts the onus of replacement on the user. It is much easier to get a common wheel bearing and hub/drum set on the Alcan hwy than it will be to get a "never lube" bearing and hub/drum.
I posted a similar illustration when I made the comment you are referring to. And my comment stays the same. The cartridge is a single unit called double roller bearing and there is no inner and outer wheel bearing. If one of the rollers burns out the whole bearing is gone which is not the case with a traditional bearing set up. This bearing design is sensitive to overhung load, this why the dexter literature explains that you have to pay particular attention to the offset on wheel replacements when using this bearing. Because the double roller bearings are a compromise between the traditionally larger inner bearing and smaller outer bearing. The traditional inner /outer bearing arrangement is more capable of handeling the overhung load because of the spacing between teh bearings in the hub.
As a matter of practicality, one must accept the fact that the lube in the bearing cartridge is not magic, you can accomplish the same thing by packing your bearings and hubs with a quality grease and just resign yourself to "never lubing" your bearing again. You would most definitely have a axle system capable of more overhung load, and you would get the same bearing life.
But why do we grease bearing anyway? We grease them because heat from our brakes breaks down the grease, and the grease also oxidizes. Because of this we must purge our bearings of old grease. It does not require much. Just pump a little grease through the zerk and stop. In this manner you will not blow the seal out of the hub.
This cartridge is expected to travel 100,000 miles on a single lube, with the same lubrication that you and I use. And Im sure it does have that capability. I just think the tried and true method is better.
It most definitely takes the place of a traditional wheel bearing assembly, but it is a compromise between ease of manufacturing, less machine work and puts the onus of replacement on the user. It is much easier to get a common wheel bearing and hub/drum set on the Alcan hwy than it will be to get a "never lube" bearing and hub/drum.
I posted a similar illustration when I made the comment you are referring to. And my comment stays the same. The cartridge is a single unit called double roller bearing and there is no inner and outer wheel bearing. If one of the rollers burns out the whole bearing is gone which is not the case with a traditional bearing set up. This bearing design is sensitive to overhung load, this why the dexter literature explains that you have to pay particular attention to the offset on wheel replacements when using this bearing. Because the double roller bearings are a compromise between the traditionally larger inner bearing and smaller outer bearing. The traditional inner /outer bearing arrangement is more capable of handeling the overhung load because of the spacing between teh bearings in the hub.
As a matter of practicality, one must accept the fact that the lube in the bearing cartridge is not magic, you can accomplish the same thing by packing your bearings and hubs with a quality grease and just resign yourself to "never lubing" your bearing again. You would most definitely have a axle system capable of more overhung load, and you would get the same bearing life.
But why do we grease bearing anyway? We grease them because heat from our brakes breaks down the grease, and the grease also oxidizes. Because of this we must purge our bearings of old grease. It does not require much. Just pump a little grease through the zerk and stop. In this manner you will not blow the seal out of the hub.
This cartridge is expected to travel 100,000 miles on a single lube, with the same lubrication that you and I use. And Im sure it does have that capability. I just think the tried and true method is better.
JanAndBill
Well-known member
Because the seals leak - frequently. Requiring maintenance.
dave10a
Well-known member
It is true the seal can leak, but I don't think the potential of leaks is any larger concern than the problems that can occur with grease bearing. The truckers think oil is better than greased bearing when the trailers are used for extensive traveling. Does anyone have any real reliability data between greased and oiled bearing?
JanAndBill
Well-known member
25 years of owning an over the road trucking company and thousands of seals later, it's not "can" but "will" eventually. Some trailers have "grease filled" hubs. The reason we used oil filled hubs was supposedly more mileage capability (considering a trailer could average over 150K per year, and easier to visually check the oil level on a pretrip. The downside is they don't like to sit still for a long time. The oil drains off the bearing, condensation occurs, and you get pitting on the bearing. You also would not believe how often the plastic inspection window cracks. I'll gladly stay with the grease filled hubs on my 5th wheel.
dave10a
Well-known member
Jan thanks, your real world experience is good to have. I had oil bearings on the front wheels of my 10 year old diesel pusher that I put 5k miles per year and was in storage for 3-5 months a year. I never had problems with those bearing, and I have not seen or heard of motor home with oil bearings having problems. However, I have blown a bearing on my Landmark a month ago in the Nevada desert. I was not a fun experience and cost me a lot money to have it fixed. I have easy lube bearings that I maintained per mfg recommendations. That is why I am looking for alternatives. The bearing burn out occurred after 15k miles on my trailer and was not because of improper maintenance, but simply decided to go bad while driving 62mph on the Interstate. As far as I can determine oil bearings are not for boat trailers because water is not a friend to oil. Also grease bearings will hold up longer than an oil bearing when they fail and can provide a warning(if one is observant to the smoke cloud following them) to shut down before the spindle is chewed up. However, oil bearings do offer better reliability than grease bearings and do not require as short of maintenance schedule according to the trailer shops that service both. If they start leaking, the usually seep and provide a warning to get the seals repaired before if becomes a disaster. However most seals do not leak or seep. And as you pointed out oil bearings are for more long distance travel. I have mixed emotions and are considering alternatives. Oil bearings cost a little more, but that is a small difference. BTY the never lube idea is not time tested, so I am passing on that one for now. Marketing always seems to get ahead of itself.
porthole
Retired
Jim, I know what the bearing type is, had conversations with the MOR/ryde engineers about design, concept and use. I posted the link to have "cartridge" bearing because your own post said you were not sure.
Either way, not something I would use in a heavy 5th wheel.
porthole
Retired
There is at least one upper level trailer company that equips their 5th wheels with oil filled bearings.
I have always considered switching to oil filled as my hubs are already equipped for it (caps and seals).
But after seeing what my bearings looked like after 4 years 20k+ I decided to just leave them alone.
All if our fire trucks are equipped with oil filled hubs and we don't have a leak issue.
I have always considered switching to oil filled as my hubs are already equipped for it (caps and seals).
But after seeing what my bearings looked like after 4 years 20k+ I decided to just leave them alone.
All if our fire trucks are equipped with oil filled hubs and we don't have a leak issue.
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
Sorry, my bad I get it now. I thought you and I were in disagreement. But I see what you mean by the cartridge bearing.
I not sure but it does not look like you can convert to this bearing by simply changing drums. Would one have to change the axle too? Then what would you have? I think just an invitation to problems. might be good for small trailers, but, like you, I think the returns diminish toward the 6 and 7000 lb axles.
I not sure but it does not look like you can convert to this bearing by simply changing drums. Would one have to change the axle too? Then what would you have? I think just an invitation to problems. might be good for small trailers, but, like you, I think the returns diminish toward the 6 and 7000 lb axles.
porthole
Retired
When you have MOR/ryde IS with disc brakes installed, you either order Kodiak disc brakes with standard bearings or Dexter disc brakes with never lubes bearings. And they have to know in advance because of the spindles. MOR/ryde IS is semi preassembled before your coach arrives.
So................. my guess is the hubs are completely different.
This is a crude graphic, but gives a general idea of the difference with spacing.
Attachments
JanAndBill
Well-known member
Dave, there are several reasons for bearing failure, that can occur with both oil filled and grease. Using the wrong lubricant, mixing incompatible lubricants, and contamination either water or grit, can cause failure. One big bearing killer is improper preload. Lot of unskilled mechanics have a tendency to go to heavy on the preload, thinking a little tighter is better, and sometimes you just have a bad bearing. Dexter uses both Chinese bearings and seals, (at least on my Big Horn) not sure that the quality is as good as American mfg regardless of what lubrication method is used. When it comes time to replace them I'll go back with Timken. On my Easy Lube hubs, I tried to lube them via the instructions with a grease gun, and my arm wore out before I ever had any grease forced out the front. I finally pulled them, cleaned and repacked the bearings by hand. Surprisingly all of the bearings looked great, with no discoloration or pitting on any of them. I did find that most of the grease was confined to the areas around the bearings and most of the center of the hub was empty. It would have taken most of a tube of grease to fill the empty space before any was forced out the end. Lastly I always make it a habit that when I stop to stretch the legs, I do a walk around checking tires and laying hands on the wheel/hub.
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
dave10a
Well-known member
I am now a believer that the easy lube is a big mistake. To thnk one can lube the bearings with the easy lube method and think things are good is a big mistake. It is best to inspect and lube the bearing at 5000 miles or once a year using the time honored method of packing the bearings by hand. I lost a bearing thinking things were good because I followed Dexter's easy lube service routine. I suspect the preload got loose and pitted the outer bearing which became a smoking disaster on I-80 in Nevada. The easy lube grease made a real mess and I was lucky the axle spindle didn't get damaged. Life is full of lessons..... also after repacking my wheels I found another loose bearing that was pitted. I am not sure if the wheels get loose over time or they were simply not installed properly in the first place.
JanAndBill
Well-known member
I am not sure if the wheels get loose over time or they were simply not installed properly in the first place.
If yours uses the snap on retainer, there's no way that the nut can back off if the retainer is installed properly, or the spring clips break. If yours uses the kind that requires a cotter key, again unless it comes out the nut can not back off. By loose are you saying you could move the wheel? Or, are you saying the nut was loose, because a properly installed hub with the correct preload means that after first torquing the spindle nut to 50 ftlbs. you back the nut off then go back finger tight. Once you install the retainer you should be able to freely "wiggle"the nut slightly. The pitted bearings still sound like contamination either from water, grit or heat. To much preload, lack of grease or possibly incompatible grease could cause the bearing to gall. The Lithium Grease used may not be compatible with the thickener used in other grease, which can result in diminished lubrication. If you look at my previous comment, the center section of my hubs are now sufficiently packed with grease that I should be able to add additional grease using a grease gun. However, I will still follow Dexter's recommendation to inspect, clean and repack at 12,000 mile intervals.
If yours uses the snap on retainer, there's no way that the nut can back off if the retainer is installed properly, or the spring clips break. If yours uses the kind that requires a cotter key, again unless it comes out the nut can not back off. By loose are you saying you could move the wheel? Or, are you saying the nut was loose, because a properly installed hub with the correct preload means that after first torquing the spindle nut to 50 ftlbs. you back the nut off then go back finger tight. Once you install the retainer you should be able to freely "wiggle"the nut slightly. The pitted bearings still sound like contamination either from water, grit or heat. To much preload, lack of grease or possibly incompatible grease could cause the bearing to gall. The Lithium Grease used may not be compatible with the thickener used in other grease, which can result in diminished lubrication. If you look at my previous comment, the center section of my hubs are now sufficiently packed with grease that I should be able to add additional grease using a grease gun. However, I will still follow Dexter's recommendation to inspect, clean and repack at 12,000 mile intervals.
dave10a
Well-known member
I took my bearings to a wheel bearing genius and he felt there was nothing wrong with the grease I use, which was recommended by Dexter, and the problem was most likely to much free play/too light of pre-load which shows up as galling on the outside bearing. Evidently, they were not installed properly in the first place and after time they fail. So now that my trailer is a year out of the 1 year warrenty, I guess I have an expensive lesson learned.
porthole
Retired
You can get disc brake kits from several vendors, including Kodiak.
There are several threads on the site detailing the installation.
If you can install a genny - you can install disc brakes and save a grand or more.
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jdamude
Well-known member
Just an FYI. I had a Gentleman from Kentuckey wih a 2009 Cedar Creek come into our shop this week with a bad wheel bearing. The coach had Never Lube axles in it. When I started looking for parts it became a challenge. I then called Lippart trying to get parts and was informed that they no longer service or supply parts for the Never Lube Axles. I was quickly referred up to the warranty department. After supplying all the coach information and axle serial numbers they without hesitation decided to ship two new axles, hubs,brakes and u bolts. They should be arriving tomorrow. We have the customer in a local campground and we will exchange his axles on site.
Westwind
Well-known member
My experience - I had a 2002 Sunnybrook Original, Model 26FK (No slideouts) aluminum trailer, yes it was light, about 6200 lbs. It came equipped with Dexter Never Lube axles and we traveled about 4K per year. Sold the trailer after 10 years and didn't have any problems with the axles. I'm sure at some point I would have a problem and I don't know how they would function on a heavier trailer.
