Not a very happy camper right now

[PandBStandiford]

Our 2010 Bighorn 3670RL normally does not get towed. We use it at a members only private campground and it stays in storage except when we are using it. Recently I had to tow it to the dealer to get the ODS jack replaced. And that's when the problems began. The dealer did a fine job and I went and picked it up and towed it back and put it back in storage. This last weekend we used it for the first time. When I opened the door to the large storage area I noticed that the floor looked strange but did not have time for a thourough inspection. Saturday morning I pulled everything out and discovered that the floor slopes from both sides towards the center. Total slope is approximately 4 - 5 inches. It appears that there are no supports under the floor. I called the dealer and asked them to check if the extended warranty would cover this. (When I got home I checked the papers I had on the extended warranty and decided that it was not covered. This has since been confirmed by the dealer.) Today, I called Heartland Customer Support and was referred to service. I explained the issue and asked if there are supports under the floor. There are not. I did make the comment that this seems like poor design and was told that "If the floor gets wet this will destroy the structural integrity of the flooring material." DUH!!. So here is my complaint. (And don't get me wrong, we love our RV.) The basement area of an RV has large doors on either side with rubber seals that may or may not be prone to leakage. In addition, the area to the rear of the basement is full of PEX pipes with thousands of PEX fittings. (OK, maybe not a thousand, but a lot.) These fittings can develop leaks. (Although we have not found any). Does it make sense to use flooring material in which the structural integrity of the floor can be destroyed by water? With no supports under it. I am told that the reason there are no supports is that the holding tanks are under the floor. Does that mean the floor sits directly on the holding tanks? I don't think so because the floor in the center is sunk down at least 4 - 5 inches. So, it looks like this weekend will be spent removing the floor to find out exactly what I've got under the floor. Do any of your Heartlanders out there know what I can expect to find under the floor?

 

[danemayer]

I think the holding tanks are further to the rear on most models. There's probably not much underneath the basement storage floor.

 

[PandBStandiford]

I think the holding tanks are further to the rear on most models. There's probably not much underneath the basement storage floor.

Really not sure at this point. I'm just going by what the guy at Heartland sevice told me. One thing you can be sure of is that I will find some way to put supports in and I don't think I will use particle board. Probably marine grade plywood that will not have the structural integrity "destroyed" by water. Seems odd that they wouldn't put supports under it if there is room. (Probably concerned about weight. But since the add says over 140 cubic feet of storage you would think they would make it strong enough to support that 140 cubic feet of storage.)

 

[TandT]

PandB
Sorry for your situation. Not sure what you will find there.
We have a 2011 3670 with the storage area loaded to the gills. I would estimate there is probably about 300+lbs stored in there. It's hard to believe it is not supported underneath, because with all that weight, there is absolutely no sag in the floor. It is as solid as a rock.

We have had a few water leaks from behind the UDC which caused water to run to the area you are talking about.
Because we fulltime, the leaks were found and repaired within a week or two. The water did not sit there long term. That being said, our storage has a rubber like coating on the floor to protect it from minor dampness, etc.
If you end up replacing the floor surface, I would recommend putting a bedliner type spray on coating on the surface. I have purchased it at Walmart for other reasons.
Trace

 

[aatauses]

We have a BH 3670 and had to have the floor beefed up from underneath. Yes, there are wood supports supposed to be there, but ours were not there. I had a dealer put in a piece or 2" square stock going from frame to frame and it solved the problem.
al
currently in Graham, WA

 

[JohnDar]

Gray #1 is partially under the floor. Other than that, it's a big open space with some wiring passing through it. It does not have any plumbing lines in that space. I would recommend you pull the basement walls while connected to city water and look for leaks behind the UDC that might be putting water onto the hidden areas behind it. But I've crawled into my basement on several occasions and found the floor to be very sturdy.

 

[PandBStandiford]

PandB
That being said, our storage has a rubber like coating on the floor to protect it from minor dampness, etc.
Trace

We have a rubber diamond plate type cover on the floor that keeps water from getting down to the particle board. I have found some water on the top of it before and have pulled the wall and inspected all of the plumbing and have not been able to find a plumbing leak. We did find quite an accumulation of rust under the bottom of the u-shaped rubber seal for the ODS basement door. That makes me think that the water may have been migrating in during a rain and running under the rubber mat. I have been in the basement numerous times and always found it solid... until this time. Keep in mind that this all occured while towing it approximately 70 miles. It was fine when I left the campground and apparently was not fine when it was at the RV dealers for the jack replacement because they later told me that they noticed that it was sloping in towards the center but assumed I knew about it. We don't have much down there. I would expect maybe 100 - 150 lbs of stuff max. I'll find out more this weekend when I take out the rubber diamond plate and inspect it. I'll keep you all informed. Thanks to all for the feedback.

 

[JohnDar]

Hmmm.. Fine, you say when you took it to the dealer and not so fine when you got it back. How did it look/feel while you we're unloading it to take it in?

 

[Rickhansen]

PandBStandiford,
We have a 2009 3670RL, built in late 2007. Our basement floor began sagging when our rig was about 6 - 9 months old. The sag got progressively worse over the past 5 years. We also got a soft spot directly inside the Off-Door-Side compartment door. The whole situation got progressively worse, I knew it, and ignored it as long as I could because it was causing no immediate issues for me, and being full-time having it repaired by someone else would be expensive and difficult. I had read somewhere on the forums that there was no support under the laminate floor, but cannot re-locate that post. I recently started replacement on my own. Here is what I can tell you.

First off, there is indeed a wooden structure under our floor. Mine was constructed from 2"x2" lumber (very light pine). The perimeter sits on and across the frame rails, and in the inside of a frame member that divides the front storage compartment and the basement. It has about 4 joists running front-to-back. The rear cross brace is not supported in the middle and is forward of the holding tanks.

During tear out, I found that the particle board (3/8" or 1/2"?) had indeed been wet and deteriorated from the back of the UDC and the rot had migrated toward the ODS door. The framing on that side, and along the front frame member, had also softened and the joists had pulled loose. They were only secured by staples. I opted to replace the entire new framing and joists using 2" x 2" lumber. The only exception was that I left the rear frame near the tanks and under the water heater as I didn't want to remove the water heater and such. I glued and screwed all joints. I increased the number of front to back joists to 6, These also got cross-braces between the joists. I replaced the decking with 1" x 6" pine boards rather than particle board, again glued and screwed. I purchased a (12 ft) 3/8" x 4 foot wide rolled rubber mat from Tractor Supply. This will overlay the wood floor.

My reasoning in going with pine lumber for the decking was that it was much easier to install than particle board, and might be more moisture resistant, and not as prone to sagging. Total cost for the repair, about $175. Not including about 2.5 days of my labor. It might weigh about 10 lbs more than the original.

Sorry, I don't have any pictures. Oh, yes I did re-caulk the UDC.

 

[PandBStandiford]

Hmmm.. Fine, you say when you took it to the dealer and not so fine when you got it back. How did it look/feel while you we're unloading it to take it in?

I did not unload it to take it to the dealer. It is only about 90 minutes from our campground where we store the coach and since I didn't think that they would need to get into the basement I didn't unload it. We have not removed everything from the basement for several years. I did look in the basement several times while we were trying to get the coach hooked up with a broken jack and it looked fine. As opposed to when I got it back. The damage and slope towards the center was very noticable. The dealer did say that they noticed the floor had a slope but "assumed" that I knew about it so they didn't say anything. BTW, this dealer is no longer a Heartland dealer (their loss). I'll find out more tomorrow when I start to take out the floor.

 

[mountainlovers76]

I had the same thing happen in our previous 2009 Bighorn. The front storage floor began to sag in the center due to no support underneath. The floor was never wet yet over time just the weight of the items stored there made it sag. I removed the bottom and found no support at all, just a large floor area supported only by the frame at the sides. I purchased 2" channel iron and ran two supports evenly spaced from I-beam to I-beam to support the floor. I had to use a hydraulic bottle jack to raise the floor enough to level it. That is how bad it was.

 

[PandBStandiford]

Rick and Jan, Thanks for the feedback. I have given some thought to using 1 x 6 treated deck boards but won't know for sure until I open it up.

 

[PandBStandiford]

over time just the weight of the items stored there made it sag. I purchased 2" channel iron and ran two supports evenly spaced from I-beam to I-beam to support the floor

Ours did not occur over time. It went from no sag to 4 - 5 inches of sag in a 90 minutes trip. Were you concerned the weight of the channel iron?

 

[Rickhansen]

Rick and Jan, Thanks for the feedback. I have given some thought to using 1 x 6 treated deck boards but won't know for sure until I open it up.

Be careful of deck boards. Most are treated, you'll find that they are very heavy compared to untreated pine. I looked at 5/4" decking and the weight would have been a huge consideration.

 

[jbeletti]

Paul,

Sorry to hear about your storage floor issue. I believe there are supports under the floor decking. Michael Barnett (2psnapod2) on this forum had numerous leaks in his Landmark over the last 2 years of full-timing and found that his storage floor was getting soft. He began to peel up the rubber floor covering and found the floor decking was saturated, disintegrating, moldy and mushy.

While in Goshen, IN after the rally for several weeks, he took his time and did the repair himself. When replacing the supports under the floor, he made his beefier and used more of them.

Nothing anyone can say now will change what has happened to your unit. But know that it has happened to others and is usually caused by water penetration into the wood, usually due to one or more leaks behind the utility wall. How soon it shows up is likely a function of how soft the floor has gotten and how much weight is on it.

While you are certainly not overloading your storage floor, the dynamic load you may have put on the floor during transport may have been just enough to cause the mushiest area of the floor to cave in.

You will want to determine the source of the moisture and take care of that before completing the restoration. Both can be done at the same time. I'm just saying, before restoration is done, you will want to know that you have nipped any source of leaks back there.

Many also take the time to rearrange things back there and on the wall as they would like them to be. I've seen people move converters, add inverters, add EMS, relocate the water pump, move water, sewer and vent lines, move electrical wiring. All in an effort to free up some additional storage space, clean the place up and protect certain items better.

Jim

 

[PandBStandiford]

Thanks for the feedback Jim. I have read the complete saga of Michael and Kelly on their blog. (BTW - It is great reading. Kelly does a fabulous job.) The blog has a day to day account of Michael's repairs. I do plan to try to find the leak. We did have water in the basement approximately two years ago and detrmined that it was a door seal on door side of the coach. We repaired that and the leak disappeared. (Or maybe we just didn't see it.) We also found quite a bit of rust in the door seal on the ODS of the coach. Looks like there was water getting in there also. I have removed the wall in the past and have to agree that the area could stand some clean-up. I like PEX tubing but not with so many fittings in it. Regardless, it is what it is and we'll get past it and hopefully the basement will be water tite and stronger then before. BTW, Heartland support told me that there were NOT supports under the floor. Time will tell.

 

[JohnDar]

Methinks next time I get bored I'll drop the coroplast up front and have another look-see at mine. Fortunately, my basement has remained dry since we got it and it feels sound when I've worked inside.

 

[PandBStandiford]

We pulled the rubber cover off the floor on Saturday. The OSB was completly soaked. We were able to simply break pieces off and throw it away. There were supports but they were also rotten. We could break the 2 x 2 supports with our bare hands. Water had accumulated under the floor on the vapor barrier. There were some large puddles under there. The problem as I see it is that the water could not evaporate. There was vapor barrier on the bottom and rubber on the top. The water was not going to evaporate. Over time the entire basement floor simply got saturated with water and began deteriorating. We got most of the floor out. Still have some clean up to do. We have checked all the water lines and could not find a leak. We did find that the overflow / vent line for the city water tank was loose and hanging down behind the wall but that was not the source of the water because 1). we seldom use the city water tank and when we have we only put a few gallons in and 2) if that was the source of the water it would have been on top of the rubber and not below the rubber. We are quite certain that the source of the water is from the UDC. The area around the large opening for hoses, satellite feed, etc was especially rotten. It was like wet sawdust. I believe over time the hose connection leaked and would run down the hose or over the lip of the large opening in the bottom of the UDC. The basement floor is exposed at that point and would easily absorb water. It is hard to believe that the water could infiltrate to the entire basement floor but that was the case and the UDC is the most likely candidate at this point. I hope to begin putting the floor back in next weekend. I am going to run them across the basement instead of the length of the basement. It will be a shorter span. In addition, I am not going to put rubber on the top of the plywood. I am going to put indoor / outdoor carpet down and leave it loose so that I can pull it up and inspect the floor. We had abosolutely no idea that there was water penetration because it was not visible on the top of the rubber floor but instead was between the rubber floor and the OSB. It was not visible at all. Again, thanks for all the feedback and support.

 

[jbeletti]

Thanks for the update Paul. Do you leave your water line on when you are not at camp and do you know what the water pressure is at the park? Wondering of water is breaching from the city water connection behind the UDC. Unless you found no evidence of water on the backside of the UDC itself. Another theory that ties in with yours is if the city water connection was leaking on the front side of the UDC with a trickle running down the white laminated wall of the UDC, maybe that was the leak source.

Anyway, you're on a good track in terms of repairs and on leak source determination. Good idea on the carpet but I'd keep the rubber floor rolled up at home for when you want to put it back, after you have confidence that the leak source if taken care of.

 

[JohnDar]

With all the work you plan and since you'll have the basement walls out anyways, might I suggest you put some removable access panels in them something like mine?. That way you can easily inspect back there and maybe find a leak before it gets out of hand. When I'm running my tank flush or just nosing around, I like to open them up and have a look-see and run my hands over the plumbing at the back of the UDC. One is behind the UDC, the other provides access to my suppressor and relocated converter.

It's a pretty simple job and I used 1/2" Baltic Birch plywood for it. Decide how big you want the openings and then cut an X in the black fabric within the perimeter of the opening. Peel it out of the way and then cut the plywood. Fold the fabric back into the opening and glue or staple it to the backside of the plywood. Screw a frame around the opening leaving a lip of the original plywood, fit the panel to the inside dimensions of the frame, and use barrel bolts to hold it in place. Initially (in photo), I just used small wood strips to hold it, but changed to the bolts. For esthetics, you could paint or stain the wood black or whatever you fancy. The grill in the one panel was originally mounted in the basement wall.

Personal choice, but I prefer the removable panels over hinged doors or walls because I don't have to empty the basement or move much to open them up for a quick inspection. Naturally, if some maintenance were required, the walls would have to come out.

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