Ladiver
Well-known member
Yep, reconnected the fuel tank and no more clicking. Thanks.
Onan 5500 not starting...partially solved
- Thread starter Ladiver
- Start date
Yep, reconnected the fuel tank and no more clicking. Thanks.
Ladiver
Well-known member
So frustrated. I think I am almost ready to throw in the towel and have a service center look at it.
What have I done to this point?
Completely cleaned the carb.
Verified fuel pump is working.
Verified fuel filter is not clogged.
Verified fuel is not bad/contaminated.
Verified that the auto gen start is not causing problems (I disconnected it)
Last thing I am going to do is check for loose wires at the converter.
What have I done to this point?
Completely cleaned the carb.
Verified fuel pump is working.
Verified fuel filter is not clogged.
Verified fuel is not bad/contaminated.
Verified that the auto gen start is not causing problems (I disconnected it)
Last thing I am going to do is check for loose wires at the converter.
Last edited:
danemayer
Well-known member
Why are you checking the power converter? Also, I didn't understand why you had video of the Magnum Controller.
What failure symptoms do you still have?
Ladiver
Well-known member
Dan,
I am going to check the converter and transfer switch. Basically make sure all connections "behind the wall" are secure. This is based on a comment from NWilson to check the transfer switch.
The video of the Magnum controller was to show that when there was no load, the inverter/charger was getting a pretty constant load of power (amps). When the generator was acting up, you can see the amps jumping up and down. These fluctuations were in line with the surging of the generator. You could also see the amps remaining constant when the other power loads were constant and the generator was remaining constant.
The symptom I am running into right now are that when a significant load (a/c) is being applied, the generator surges for a while, then the power from the generator kicks out. The generator does not shut down, but the power to the coach is disconnected. You can also see that in the video of the Magnum controller. When the power cuts out, the generator is still running, but the transfer switch has decided not to pass power from the generator to the coach.
danemayer
Well-known member
The Power Converter changes 110V AC to 12V DC, so I don't know what that would have to do with anything.
If you have a loose or high resistance connection coming into the transfer switch (or at the junction box between generator and transfer switch), that might be causing a problem. If voltage on the L1 wire at the transfer switch connection drop to around 104V, the circuit board will interpret that as the generator shutting down and will drop the transfer switch contactors.
Be very cautious working on an open transfer switch. If you make a mistake, there's enough power there to seriously injure or kill. You might find it worth using a $20 non-contact voltage tester before getting your hands on the box, just in case the box itself is carrying current due to a malfunction. While unlikely, for $20 you can be safe. Non-contact testers are available at most hardware stores. Skip the $10 tester and go for the better $20 unit.
Also, as a good safety practice, since you don't have any lockouts, make sure you know who else is around the RV and that they know not to push any buttons while you're working.
If you have a loose or high resistance connection coming into the transfer switch (or at the junction box between generator and transfer switch), that might be causing a problem. If voltage on the L1 wire at the transfer switch connection drop to around 104V, the circuit board will interpret that as the generator shutting down and will drop the transfer switch contactors.
Be very cautious working on an open transfer switch. If you make a mistake, there's enough power there to seriously injure or kill. You might find it worth using a $20 non-contact voltage tester before getting your hands on the box, just in case the box itself is carrying current due to a malfunction. While unlikely, for $20 you can be safe. Non-contact testers are available at most hardware stores. Skip the $10 tester and go for the better $20 unit.
Also, as a good safety practice, since you don't have any lockouts, make sure you know who else is around the RV and that they know not to push any buttons while you're working.
Ladiver
Well-known member
Thanks Dan,
That explains why the power to the coach is shut off during the surge of the generator, but that still does not address the generator surge in the first place. To me, it sound like the transfer switch is doing exactly what it is supposed to do.
Jim's boogeyman was the carburetor, mine is electricity. I know that it will kill you if you don't respect it. I think this is where I may draw my own personal comfort line. Luckily, I can disconnect shore power, make sure the generator is not running and disconnect the battery. I have the RV at the house, and it is only my wife and I. I know for sure I am the only one working in the coach and I don't have to worry about someone else trying something. I haven't taught the dogs to turn things on and off yet.
I like the idea of a non-contact voltage tester. I do not have that in my toolbox, but I am sure a quick trip to Home Depot will remedy that situation. Thanks, I did not even think of that.
danemayer
Well-known member
Jeff,
The open question is whether the generator surge is the cause or the effect.
I wouldn't be surprised if you open the transfer switch and find damaged wire.
There should be a junction box near the generator where the wires to the transfer switch are connected to the generator. That's another possible trouble spot.
Ladiver
Well-known member
This is why it is so frustrating. But I have learned a lot more about my coach and how things work.
I will tear apart underneath later. I have the house to myself this week and my honey-do list is pretty short, so I should have plenty of time. Now that I say that, I bet next week at work is going to be a LONG one.
I will post back here with what I find underneath.
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
One of two things
Make sure your inverter is on. Power will not pass through the inverter unless it is on. The charger will work but anything on the sub panel will not work. So check that.
If the transfer switch is engaging and disengaging then you should hear it "clunk" each time it engages. It may also rattle or chatter while trying to re engage.
Here is a typical Inverter/charger installation, compare it to yours.
1) Both shore power and generator power lead into the transfer switch,
2) out of the transfer switch, power goes to the main panel,
3) from there either one leg or both legs (optional) goes to the inverter and then passes through the inverter to a sub panel.
4) which in turn, runs what ever appliances are controlled by that sub panel.
5) The inverter charges the batteries with its internal charger with electricity it is receiving from the main panel and passing through to the sub panel.
7) When the transfer switch drops out (for whatever reason) the power to the inverter is interrupted.
8) Since there is no power to the inverter there is no pass through. or charging
9) No matter which leg the inverter is on L1, L2 or both, the inverter cannot direct power to the charger OR feed the air conditioner or any other appliance.
10) The only relationship between the inverter charger and the air conditioner fan unit is the transfer switch and the main panel. (or the inverter if the AC fan runs off the Pass through).
11) What you have here is the airconditioner and the inverter quitting simultaneously and independently from one another because the power from the generator is not getting past the main breaker panel.
12) since you are not having to reset breakers, that tells me that the transfer switch is the problem.
Question? My xantrex monitor has a readout that tells me if my AC electricity is valid and how many volts and hertz the power is, regardless of the source. Do you have such a read out? and if so what is it telling you with the generator running and no appliances running. And are you sure that the breakers in your main panel and your sub panel are not tripped?
Make sure your inverter is on. Power will not pass through the inverter unless it is on. The charger will work but anything on the sub panel will not work. So check that.
If the transfer switch is engaging and disengaging then you should hear it "clunk" each time it engages. It may also rattle or chatter while trying to re engage.
Here is a typical Inverter/charger installation, compare it to yours.
1) Both shore power and generator power lead into the transfer switch,
2) out of the transfer switch, power goes to the main panel,
3) from there either one leg or both legs (optional) goes to the inverter and then passes through the inverter to a sub panel.
4) which in turn, runs what ever appliances are controlled by that sub panel.
5) The inverter charges the batteries with its internal charger with electricity it is receiving from the main panel and passing through to the sub panel.
7) When the transfer switch drops out (for whatever reason) the power to the inverter is interrupted.
8) Since there is no power to the inverter there is no pass through. or charging
9) No matter which leg the inverter is on L1, L2 or both, the inverter cannot direct power to the charger OR feed the air conditioner or any other appliance.
10) The only relationship between the inverter charger and the air conditioner fan unit is the transfer switch and the main panel. (or the inverter if the AC fan runs off the Pass through).
11) What you have here is the airconditioner and the inverter quitting simultaneously and independently from one another because the power from the generator is not getting past the main breaker panel.
12) since you are not having to reset breakers, that tells me that the transfer switch is the problem.
Question? My xantrex monitor has a readout that tells me if my AC electricity is valid and how many volts and hertz the power is, regardless of the source. Do you have such a read out? and if so what is it telling you with the generator running and no appliances running. And are you sure that the breakers in your main panel and your sub panel are not tripped?
Ladiver
Well-known member
I know I hear the clunk when I plug into shore power. I really don't remember hearing the clunk when the generator kicks in. I am sure it does because I go from no having power to having power.
I will check the junction box at the generator and the transfer switch. I do have a display from the Progressive Industries EMS. I will monitor that on L1 and L2. I have verified that all breakers are solid and none are tripped.
Ladiver
Well-known member
My setup is about the same.
1) Both shore power and generator power lead into the transfer switch,
2) out of the transfer switch, power goes to Progressive EMS
3) EMS to the main panel,
4) from there either one leg goes to the inverter and passes through the inverter to a sub panel.
5) The inverter charges the batteries with its internal charger with electricity it is receiving from the main panel and passing through to the sub panel.
Tonight I cleaned out my storage. I checked the junction box at the generator and everything looks good there. No melted wires and the wire-nuts are holding everything tight. Went behind the wall and checked the transfer switch. Everything appeared to be sold and there was no sign of melted wires or any other damage.
Since it was after 9pm, I decided against firing up the generator for more testing, but from shore power with nothing running other than the charger, I am seeing L-1 121v 0A, L-2 118v 4A, 60Hz. I will post the result of shore under load and genny with/without load.
Ladiver
Well-known member
SOLUTION FOUND! (I think)
After all of my trouble shooting, I figured it was a generator problem. I took the rig to the shop and had them test everything and see if they could find the problem. What they found was that the EMS was the culprit for preventing power to the rig. This was happening when the power draw of the rig was greater than what the generator could supply. When the generator was running, it not only was supplying power to the rig, but also the battery charger. This caused too much draw and caused the EMS to kick in (< 20 amps).
After speaking with Progressive, they said there was another customer with a very similar setup that had similar problems when their battery was too low. I have been able to replicate the problem with a low battery. When the batteries are full, I can run 2 air conditioners and the microwave at the same time and not lose power.
The solution is to keep the batteries topped off, or make sure the charger is Off (standby), when trying to run heavy loads off the generator. I am not sure why this happens, and I don't think I like that solution, but at least I now know what the cause is. If I am dry camping and using the inverter for power. I just need to make sure to re-charge the batteries first, before using the air conditioner.
After all of my trouble shooting, I figured it was a generator problem. I took the rig to the shop and had them test everything and see if they could find the problem. What they found was that the EMS was the culprit for preventing power to the rig. This was happening when the power draw of the rig was greater than what the generator could supply. When the generator was running, it not only was supplying power to the rig, but also the battery charger. This caused too much draw and caused the EMS to kick in (< 20 amps).
After speaking with Progressive, they said there was another customer with a very similar setup that had similar problems when their battery was too low. I have been able to replicate the problem with a low battery. When the batteries are full, I can run 2 air conditioners and the microwave at the same time and not lose power.
The solution is to keep the batteries topped off, or make sure the charger is Off (standby), when trying to run heavy loads off the generator. I am not sure why this happens, and I don't think I like that solution, but at least I now know what the cause is. If I am dry camping and using the inverter for power. I just need to make sure to re-charge the batteries first, before using the air conditioner.
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
EMS should only protect your system from shore power problems. When I installed mine, the instructions stated to put it on the shore power line.
Ladiver
Well-known member
Jim,
When I was doing all of the wiring, Duane had mentioned that installing after the transfer switch would be a good idea (link), as it would provide protection in the event you lose neutral or ground from the generator. Even talking with Progressive Industries engineers, they did not see an issue with doing it this way.
All that being said, I think I remember seeing something that said to wire it before the transfer switch to the shore power. The only big concern was to make sure the inverter was installed AFTER the EMS.
When I was doing all of the wiring, Duane had mentioned that installing after the transfer switch would be a good idea (link), as it would provide protection in the event you lose neutral or ground from the generator. Even talking with Progressive Industries engineers, they did not see an issue with doing it this way.
All that being said, I think I remember seeing something that said to wire it before the transfer switch to the shore power. The only big concern was to make sure the inverter was installed AFTER the EMS.
porthole
Retired
I'm only guessing, but when I think my batteries were low enough and the charger ramped up enough to cause a problem running on the genny, the only issue I had was the EMS relays would start chattering. Turn off the charger and let the AC"s settle in and then no issues.
Don't forget our toy haulers have 80 amp converters, 50% bigger then the average converter installed in these rigs.
I would do the install the same on the next rig, after the transfer switch and before the inverter (if an inverter was to be wired in that way)
But - your issue was a running problem. How did the genny run before the transfer switches over?
We just did our first genny test of the year. Ran it and the AC's and hot water over night at a rest stop. No hiccups.
Don't forget our toy haulers have 80 amp converters, 50% bigger then the average converter installed in these rigs.
I would do the install the same on the next rig, after the transfer switch and before the inverter (if an inverter was to be wired in that way)
But - your issue was a running problem. How did the genny run before the transfer switches over?
We just did our first genny test of the year. Ran it and the AC's and hot water over night at a rest stop. No hiccups.
danemayer
Well-known member
I'm wondering is the problem is simply that you have enough other things running concurrently so as to exceed available generator power on one of the legs. If the EMS or ATS is a bit more sensitive to over current than the breakers on the genny, you might get problems showing up at one of those devices.
Two A/C units, microwave, and Power Converter might put you close to the limit. And depending on how they're split across L1 and L2, and whether the generator has two 30 amp lines, or a 30 and 20, that might also be a factor.
Two A/C units, microwave, and Power Converter might put you close to the limit. And depending on how they're split across L1 and L2, and whether the generator has two 30 amp lines, or a 30 and 20, that might also be a factor.
Ladiver
Well-known member
Dan,
While the batteries were not fully charged, I would run into issues with ONLY the main a/c running. I made sure no other devices were turned on and I also set the inverter/charger to standby. Sometimes the main a/c would not replicate the problem, but as soon as something as small as the DVD play was added, the problem would show up.
After the batteries were fully charged, I was able to run 2 air conditioners, microwave and some other items. I will spend some time later laying out exactly what is on L1 and L2. I find it odd that my larger loads are on L2.
While the batteries were not fully charged, I would run into issues with ONLY the main a/c running. I made sure no other devices were turned on and I also set the inverter/charger to standby. Sometimes the main a/c would not replicate the problem, but as soon as something as small as the DVD play was added, the problem would show up.
After the batteries were fully charged, I was able to run 2 air conditioners, microwave and some other items. I will spend some time later laying out exactly what is on L1 and L2. I find it odd that my larger loads are on L2.
danemayer
Well-known member
Jeff,
While low battery charge may be the trigger, it's not at all clear to me how it could be the root cause. The only involvement that I can see is by way of the Power Converter. Since that is spec'd at 1300 watts (or less) it shouldn't be able to cause a problem even when it goes into the higher output mode.
If there's an error code on the EMS readout, perhaps that would be helpful in figuring it out.
While low battery charge may be the trigger, it's not at all clear to me how it could be the root cause. The only involvement that I can see is by way of the Power Converter. Since that is spec'd at 1300 watts (or less) it shouldn't be able to cause a problem even when it goes into the higher output mode.
If there's an error code on the EMS readout, perhaps that would be helpful in figuring it out.
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