Poor Brakes

[CrazyCooter]

OK, got it all back together.

It feels much stronger, but should improve with more use. Not hydraulic disk brakes, but feels safer now. One of the right backing plates was damaged in shipping as one of the shoes was bent....guess we'll have to pull it down one more time. I had to get a new lug nut set this morning since they were shot as many times as I've had the tires off for repairs!

One strange thing I did notice was changes in current draw. My 6K brakes were drawing 11A. I expected an increase as the resistance in the 7K magnets was .3 less. When I left for the road test, the 7K's were drawing 13A and stayed there for about 10 miles and many stops. I noticed one of my last stops the brake were starting to squeak a little and the current dropped to 10A. I figured one had failed so I checked the temps with an infrared gun.....all right around 350 deg. Guess we'll see what happened there next hook up.

I machined the magnet surface as well as the brake area because they had some pretty good grooves worn. I usually don't do it on customer rigs as it's not really needed, but I guess with the brakes running WFO all the time, things were bound to be worn. The seals were leaking again too! I have never owned a trailer that has had so many grease seal issues. This time I installed the heavier seals for use with oil bath hubs....see how that works. Every wheel position has had a grease leak on this rigs at one time or another....

 

[BarneyFife]

OK, got it all back together.

It feels much stronger, but should improve with more use. Not hydraulic disk brakes, but feels safer now. One of the right backing plates was damaged in shipping as one of the shoes was bent....guess we'll have to pull it down one more time. I had to get a new lug nut set this morning since they were shot as many times as I've had the tires off for repairs!

One strange thing I did notice was changes in current draw. My 6K brakes were drawing 11A. I expected an increase as the resistance in the 7K magnets was .3 less. When I left for the road test, the 7K's were drawing 13A and stayed there for about 10 miles and many stops. I noticed one of my last stops the brake were starting to squeak a little and the current dropped to 10A. I figured one had failed so I checked the temps with an infrared gun.....all right around 350 deg. Guess we'll see what happened there next hook up.

I machined the magnet surface as well as the brake area because they had some pretty good grooves worn. I usually don't do it on customer rigs as it's not really needed, but I guess with the brakes running WFO all the time, things were bound to be worn. The seals were leaking again too! I have never owned a trailer that has had so many grease seal issues. This time I installed the heavier seals for use with oil bath hubs....see how that works. Every wheel position has had a grease leak on this rigs at one time or another....

Good to hear. Hope things continue to improve.

By the way, my seals did the exact same thing. All three times RV Outlet pulled my wheels to work on the brakes, they would then ask if I had pumped grease into the zerks. I told them "No" and they said grease was everywhere. Three times, three failures with the grease seals.

 

[CrazyCooter]

Good to hear. Hope things continue to improve.

By the way, my seals did the exact same thing. All three times RV Outlet pulled my wheels to work on the brakes, they would then ask if I had pumped grease into the zerks. I told them "No" and they said grease was everywhere. Three times, three failures with the grease seals.

I have to assume that the seal bores have been machine too large as the seals have fallen out every time. The fit driving them in seemed tight enough as to not alert me to a problem, never the less, they always popped out.....

I hope that the use of this other style seal will fix that issue.

 

[Ray LeTourneau]

Good to hear. Hope things continue to improve.

By the way, my seals did the exact same thing. All three times RV Outlet pulled my wheels to work on the brakes, they would then ask if I had pumped grease into the zerks. I told them "No" and they said grease was everywhere. Three times, three failures with the grease seals.

Since the very first time I repacked my bearings, I replaced the OEM seals with CR seals. Never had a problem. There is a world of difference between OEM and CR in the construction of the seals and the metal frame of the seal. More $$$ too but it's worth it. The last time I did the bearings they were beginning to look worn but still OK to use. Next time it's new bearings.

 

[TeJay]

This may not be an issue with your particular situation but I do believe it is a contributing factor. The E-Z-Lube system (or any system that used that design) opens you up to unnecessary servicing and possible problems. First of all the E-Z system is a rollover from the boating industry and intended to make lubing the bearings every 12 months or 12,000 miles easier. I don't adhere to those figures because cars and trucks don't service the bearings that often. Why are TT any different??? The E-Z-Lube system uses small holes drilled into the axle to allow grease into or inner bearing. Here's the problem. Regular bearing grease is to high of a viscosity (thicker) to pass through the small holes easily so they make it thinner. I noticed that the first time I packed my camper bearings. The thinner grease makes it easier to get out especially past the inferior cheap seals and exacerbates your problem. You've noted that the seals are inferior and replaced with better ones.

Here's why I service every other year or at 30,000 miles. Evey time you remove wheels, (lug nut torque) axle nuts, (correct bearing adjustment) and cotter pins you open yourself up to a possible mistake and more serious problems. When you complete a job and put 500-1000 miles on it, have had no problems you've completed it correctly. Now you're good for another 30,000 plus miles. It's even worse when you pay to have it done as many do. That's an extra expense. If you trust your local repair facility OK, but if you're still searching for one then you're creating another opportunity for mistakes.

No everyone agrees with me on this issue and that's OK. Wheel bearing issues were almost never a problem in my 35 years as a classroom teacher. We serviced them as needed and that was that. The only time I ever had a problem was when someone else failed to observe proper service procedures.

I share this information because I don't like to see or hear of people spending $$$$ unnecessarily. I don't like to hear of good retired folks (or anybody) getting stuck away from home with a mechanical issue that they had recently paid somebody to perform. I have done this for others over the years and I offer it now. If anybody has a question regarding mechanical issues repair concerns or you're stuck away from home and you're not sure the repair place is telling you the real story PM me anytime and I'll give you my phone #. Maybe I can assist you in making a better informed decision.

TeJay

 

[CrazyCooter]

This may not be an issue with your particular situation but I do believe it is a contributing factor. The E-Z-Lube system (or any system that used that design) opens you up to unnecessary servicing and possible problems. First of all the E-Z system is a rollover from the boating industry and intended to make lubing the bearings every 12 months or 12,000 miles easier. I don't adhere to those figures because cars and trucks don't service the bearings that often. Why are TT any different??? The E-Z-Lube system uses small holes drilled into the axle to allow grease into or inner bearing. Here's the problem. Regular bearing grease is to high of a viscosity (thicker) to pass through the small holes easily so they make it thinner. I noticed that the first time I packed my camper bearings. The thinner grease makes it easier to get out especially past the inferior cheap seals and exacerbates your problem. You've noted that the seals are inferior and replaced with better ones.

Here's why I service every other year or at 30,000 miles. Evey time you remove wheels, (lug nut torque) axle nuts, (correct bearing adjustment) and cotter pins you open yourself up to a possible mistake and more serious problems. When you complete a job and put 500-1000 miles on it, have had no problems you've completed it correctly. Now you're good for another 30,000 plus miles. It's even worse when you pay to have it done as many do. That's an extra expense. If you trust your local repair facility OK, but if you're still searching for one then you're creating another opportunity for mistakes.

No everyone agrees with me on this issue and that's OK. Wheel bearing issues were almost never a problem in my 35 years as a classroom teacher. We serviced them as needed and that was that. The only time I ever had a problem was when someone else failed to observe proper service procedures.

I share this information because I don't like to see or hear of people spending $$$$ unnecessarily. I don't like to hear of good retired folks (or anybody) getting stuck away from home with a mechanical issue that they had recently paid somebody to perform. I have done this for others over the years and I offer it now. If anybody has a question regarding mechanical issues repair concerns or you're stuck away from home and you're not sure the repair place is telling you the real story PM me anytime and I'll give you my phone #. Maybe I can assist you in making a better informed decision.

TeJay

Those EZ Lube axles are a joke in my opinion. I would never grease that way for the reasons you have listed above. I tore down this rig the week it was delivered to inspect, pack the bearings, surface drums, and do suspension upgrades. It has been 10K miles and the grease still looked new (Amsoil).

Thick high temp grease isn't really the ticket in our application as the drums shouldn't get warm enough to melt the high temp stuff. The Amsoil #2 that I use is borderline oily in the summer after a run down to the shop.....this lubes the bearings!

I agree after seeing the brake wear rate and grease condition, 30K would be a good service interval. I always jack up the wheels and spin to check for smooth bearings and runout before a trip anyway. This can tell you a lot about what is happening inside or what is to come.

 

[TeJay]

Thanks for the come back. Finally someone that agrees with my thoughts. I also use Amzoil but I can't remember if it's #2 or what. It was recommended by the local rep as the best wheel bearing grease. There are some others that are probably as good. As long as it's one of the best I don't care. Years ago we had a Bear wheel alignment machine installed in our shop and the rep spent a lot of time at the Indy track during the month of the 500. I asked him for the best procedure for adjusting the wheel bearings. This is what is done at the track so it should be good. 1. Over tighten the axle nut about 1/8th a 1/4 of a turn. This assures that all races and seals are properly seated. 2. Back the nut off and wiggle the wheel by grabbing the tire at 12 and 6 o'clock. While wiggling hand tighten the axle nut until the movement just goes away. That should get you between .001 & .003 bearing clearance. That's enough to allow for heat expansion. Most would be very hard pressed to feel .001 movement. That's what I taught for the next 30 years and it never came back to bight me. You seem knowledgeable and probably already knew the procedure but others reading may not.

We should be getting our new TT in the next 4-6 weeks and again I'll be doing the bearings, packing and tire upgrade. What brand of bearing do you use??? We have a lot of trucking (P.A.M, J.B. Hunt, Tysons, George's and chicken industries around here and there are also several bearing companies that service them. The local bearing dealer recommended Toyo. I could have gotten Timken but the guy was not sure where they were made.

TeJay

 

[CrazyCooter]

You are likely using the red #2 grease as the #1 would be for really cold climates. I have been an Amsoil dealer for about 8 years and with the exception of the EA air filters, I use and sell anything they have available....Good stuff for the money.

I adjust my bearings the same way with the exception of spinning the hub after your #1 step before backing it off. I figure it's one more step in the seating process. An old timer taught me back in the day that a bearing that is a little loose will last 100,000 miles and one too tight will burn up shortly after the road test.

My preference in bearings for the cost vs. value is Koyo with Timken being the more expensive "Premium" option. Koyo is what I find in almost every OE differential...Imported or domestic!

I still have the OE bearings on the trailer hubs, but over the years of running an drivetrain shop, I have found the "Import junk" that is shipped in the trailer axles haven't really been much of a problem. Good maintenance is the key. All nine of my personally owned trailers have import bearings without a single failure in the last 20 years......No sense in replacing them yet.

I just realized that you were the ones who had their trailer totaled by the dump truck..... Glad to read that it all came out OK and a new one is on the way. On the road again soon!

 

[TeJay]

Tony,
Since you said #2 Red I knew what I used was it was white so I had to check. I got the Series 2000 Racing Grease as recommended by the local dealer. It doesn't say anything about very cold temperatures so should I still use it or change to the #2 red??? You've got the experience and are a dealer I'll go by what you recommend. I'm always up for learning new stuff and I do like to use the best.

About 33 years ago I read about Mobil 1. All reports that I read were great so taking their advice I switched. I have used nothing but Mobil 1 in everything I've ever owned. The reports have not changed. It still comes highly recommended and many others have jumped on the band wagon. When I first heard about Mobil 1 around 1975 they advertised 25,000 mile oil changes. It would work but that was such a shift very few people would ever consider leaving their oil in that long. Their initial advertising campaign started them off on a bad foot. It took some time for that to change some. Even today it's hard to get guys to believe in the extended oil changes.

Good information concerning the OE bearings and the Toyo's. I changed mine to Toyo I guess because of all the bad publicity on the forums regarding the china bombs and scorched wheel bearings. It's not an expensive upgrade and extra insurance against failures. I figured if I'm going to change the lube, adjust correctly then I might as well change them. It cost $130 all bearings and seals. In the camper settlement the insurance company paid us for the upgrade so I guess I'll do it again. Since you've had no bearing failures over 9 units and who knows how many miles it would be my guess if there are an inordinate number of ruined bearings on campers it's probably due to improper wheel bearing adjustment.

I also spin the tire to distribute the lube around the rollers and races. I guess I forgot to put that info in my post.

Please let me know about the grease and thanks for all the information. If I need to change bearing lube PM me the information so I can order it from you. Going to Canada fishing tomorrow but will be back on the 11th.

TeJay

 

[CrazyCooter]

The Series 2000 grease is awesome.

I gave some to a circle track racing buddy of mine to try because he wouldn't buy it.......He was packing his front bearings every race because he was burning the generic grease he was using. This guy is an engine builder by trade, but is scared to try newer technology and prefers to stick with what others have done for years for the reason of an "expected" outcome. It has been three years since I gave him that ONE tube. He has used it to service two cars through nearly 3 seasons! I asked him why he didn't have me order some sooner, to which he replied "I don't need to pack my bearings but once a season now"! So now I have him converted to Amsoil grease and gear oil, but still working on him for the motor oil.....

The Series 2000 is a lithium complex base which offers excellent water resistance, multi-grease compatibility, better oil separation resistance (extended storage) ,and higher drop point(heat resistance). The #2 Multi-Purpose grease is a calcium sulfonate complex. It has a lower drop point, lower oil separation rating, and a lower 4 ball wear result for less wear(extreme pressure).

Bottom line there is either will work fine! I have both on the shelf and could install either, but:I don't let my rig sit for longer than 60 days, I don't tow it through deep water, generally don't overheat brakes, and the grease isn't mixed with anything pre-existing, so the #2 is the ticket for me. If you have the Series 2000, by all means use it! If you are doing a new order, you might consider the #2.

I too have use Mobil 1 over the years. What I experienced made me try Amsoil when it was offered up. Mobil 1 motor oil leaked out my engine seals and smoked out the tailpipe of my Suzuki between shifts. Pretty annoying and smelly! I switched back to a conventional oil and it was magically fixed! Years later when I was introduced to Amsoil, I tried it in the Suzuki once again......to my surprise no oil consumption!

The gear lube was also questionable...... I have built hundreds if not thousands or rear ends over the years, but three of those came back with differential problems. They were Ford Superdutys that required synthetic lube....Mobil 1 is what I was using at that time. Although well out of warranty, I really didn't think should have been back that soon for another build. The bearings and gears looked like they were cooked at 500 deg. in an oven with the oil. I quit using Mobil 1 gear oil and swapped to Amsoil just after the second on came back. I run my personal Cummins truck well north of 500 RWHP rolling over 28K GCVW and have the Amsoil in my gear boxes still look like new after 60K miles! I was SOLD!

I also service a few fleets who trucks go 25K+ between oil changes with oil sampling. 310K mile Powerstrokes and 620K mile Cummins trucks! These are vehicles still running and counting up the miles.....and the fleet saves $1000's in oil changes every year and our buddies in the middle east don't benefit!

I wonder how many of these bearing failures are due to mixing of incompatible greases as well as adjustment? I always worry about RV mechanics doing axle/brake service......I can fix a refrigerator or almost anything in my RV, but how qualified is on of those guys to work on the under chassis of a vehicle? Almost all of the RV techs I personally know of couldn't/wouldn't ever make it in my field.

 

[TeJay]

Tony,
There's nothing like putting something to the test to prove a point. Excellent information. Any time you want to share stuff that you know just shoot me a message. I'm always up for learning.

You are correct concerning the techs and what it takes to survive in these fields. Every successful student that I had could have been doctors or lawyers or just about anything else they wanted to be but they chose the technical field. People look down on them because they don't have college degrees. I guess it's their loss.

I had a 95 Isuzu pick-up that I switched the gear lube and differential lube to Mercon 5 synthetic hydraulic fluid. My V-10 Ford motor home differential used a synthetic so I thought why not. I probably could have used some Amzoil product but didn't realize they had one or just didn't check. I think I put another 60-K miles on the truck before I sold it in 2010 and never had any problems.

Thanks again,
TeJay

 

[CrazyCooter]

UPDATE!!

After installing the 7K brake backing plates, we finally got to go on a trip and get everything bedded in. At first the brakes didn't feel like a huge improvement while loaded up, but got better with more use. When we got back home, I stopped by the shop and unloaded the RZR and motorcycle before heading to the house. Since the brakes were always inadequate, I never turned the brake controller down EVER........ Well, when pulling off the highway, I got lockup on both wheels on the rear axle.

Still not disk brakes, but at least I feel safer towing the unit now.