Tire Changing
- Thread starter totosparents
- Start date
danemayer
Well-known member
If you have the auto-leveling system, you can get the necessary lift. If the front is also supported by the truck, you have some protection in case of an equipment failure. You do need to be careful to not lift the truck.
If you have only the front hydraulic landing gear, you won't be able to lift the wheels with the front gear. The rear stabilizers are not strong enough to lift the wheels off the ground.
GWRam
Well-known member
Had the trailer aid when I had my TT works great.
BUT on my Gateway there is so much flexibility in the suspension that when the one good wheel is on the trailer aid the other wheel is still on the ground. Its usefulness depends on your suspension.
GOTTOYS
Well-known member
I just use a hydraulic jack and place it just ahead or behind the wheel on the spring right next to the axle. Works just fine. You only need to lift it an inch or so to get the wheel off. There is nothing there it can damage. Why take a chance on balancing the whole rig way up in the air when lifting one wheel an inch will get the job done....Don
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
I think the nuances are moot. I believe these technical writings have information and meaning that has become lost along the way.
There is no practical reason, and infact many reasons not to lift a trailer frame to change a tire. To service the rig, yes, lifting and supporting the frame is not only a good idea its a safe idea. But no-one one is going to lift a rig by the frame on the way to Disneyland for a simple tire change. A 7000 lb axle should and can take 3500 lbs of vertical force at the axle spring mount location, I know it can because I have done it. In fact I raised my axle to change a blowmax, on the tube, beside the the leaf spring with a screw type bottle jack from my Ram truck and did not even scratch the paint on the axle tube and it took no effort and very little force from the jack. There should be no problem at the spring/frame attach points because With the dexter torque flex system all you are doing is relieving the extra load on the mating tandem caused by the deflated tire. If anything is violating the design parameters it is not the jack but rather the entire load being supported by the remaining axle.
It is true that Lippert and Dexter both clearly state that the rig should be lifted to service the axles. I cannot understand this highly technical method of simply raising a single axle with an opposing vertical force equal to the load supported by that axle already + x lbs to raise it an additional 1.5 inches. The 3500 pounds then being distributed equally to the spring attach points at 1750 lbs each.
Raising the frame would necessarily increase the length of travel, and the amount of force required to raise the wheel off the ground by really having to lift the entire side of the rig inducing tremendous loads (at least twice what is necessary) into the work effort and in the single jacking point on the frame as described by Lippert and Dexter. If I were to use the frame, I would use at least four jacks evenly spaced down the side of the rig and apply equal force among them.
I'm no engineer, but looking at the frame, I would be concerned with torquing the frame with this method and/or having the i beam roll over from the force. Where are the reinforced jacking pads on the frame? If this is the technique they really want you to use then there should be two plates installed to assist you in placing your jacks and to reinforce the jacking location.
Lifting a single wheel off the ground using vertical force at the axle pad cannot induce any load that is foreign to the spring, axle or trailer.
I will give a warning that no-one has brought up yet; If you lift your trailer by the frame as directed by Heartland owners manual, to simply change a tire, use caution and place your jack directly under the I-beam web. You may want to consider using wooden blocks to spread the load out onto the flanges but the jack must be placed directly under the web, and only a perfect vertical load should be used. The I-beam can roll or the flange can bend, it is not designed to be lifted by a single jack. IMHO
Lippert says in part:
Jack up the frame, not the axle.
Dexter makes the axles and suspension on many trailers.
Dexter says in part:
Dexter recommends that you do not jack up the trailer on the suspension components because there is always the potential for damage. Bent hangers, leaf springs, or axle tubes can cause bad axle alignment with bad tire wear resulting. Also, many trailer builders do not use Dexter hangers and we have no idea how strong these hangers may or may not be. Therefore, we take the conservative approach and recommend jacking up only on the trailer frame.
The Heartland Trailer Manual says in part:
- Position a hydraulic jack on the frame close to the spring hanger.
- Raise the trailer until the tire clears the ground.[/QUOTE]
There is no practical reason, and infact many reasons not to lift a trailer frame to change a tire. To service the rig, yes, lifting and supporting the frame is not only a good idea its a safe idea. But no-one one is going to lift a rig by the frame on the way to Disneyland for a simple tire change. A 7000 lb axle should and can take 3500 lbs of vertical force at the axle spring mount location, I know it can because I have done it. In fact I raised my axle to change a blowmax, on the tube, beside the the leaf spring with a screw type bottle jack from my Ram truck and did not even scratch the paint on the axle tube and it took no effort and very little force from the jack. There should be no problem at the spring/frame attach points because With the dexter torque flex system all you are doing is relieving the extra load on the mating tandem caused by the deflated tire. If anything is violating the design parameters it is not the jack but rather the entire load being supported by the remaining axle.
It is true that Lippert and Dexter both clearly state that the rig should be lifted to service the axles. I cannot understand this highly technical method of simply raising a single axle with an opposing vertical force equal to the load supported by that axle already + x lbs to raise it an additional 1.5 inches. The 3500 pounds then being distributed equally to the spring attach points at 1750 lbs each.
Raising the frame would necessarily increase the length of travel, and the amount of force required to raise the wheel off the ground by really having to lift the entire side of the rig inducing tremendous loads (at least twice what is necessary) into the work effort and in the single jacking point on the frame as described by Lippert and Dexter. If I were to use the frame, I would use at least four jacks evenly spaced down the side of the rig and apply equal force among them.
I'm no engineer, but looking at the frame, I would be concerned with torquing the frame with this method and/or having the i beam roll over from the force. Where are the reinforced jacking pads on the frame? If this is the technique they really want you to use then there should be two plates installed to assist you in placing your jacks and to reinforce the jacking location.
Lifting a single wheel off the ground using vertical force at the axle pad cannot induce any load that is foreign to the spring, axle or trailer.
I will give a warning that no-one has brought up yet; If you lift your trailer by the frame as directed by Heartland owners manual, to simply change a tire, use caution and place your jack directly under the I-beam web. You may want to consider using wooden blocks to spread the load out onto the flanges but the jack must be placed directly under the web, and only a perfect vertical load should be used. The I-beam can roll or the flange can bend, it is not designed to be lifted by a single jack. IMHO
Lippert says in part:
Jack up the frame, not the axle.
Dexter makes the axles and suspension on many trailers.
Dexter says in part:
Dexter recommends that you do not jack up the trailer on the suspension components because there is always the potential for damage. Bent hangers, leaf springs, or axle tubes can cause bad axle alignment with bad tire wear resulting. Also, many trailer builders do not use Dexter hangers and we have no idea how strong these hangers may or may not be. Therefore, we take the conservative approach and recommend jacking up only on the trailer frame.
The Heartland Trailer Manual says in part:
- Position a hydraulic jack on the frame close to the spring hanger.
- Raise the trailer until the tire clears the ground.[/QUOTE]
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totosparents
Member
Feel kind of bad I started this thread. I figured on a few answers not 3 pages worth.........LOL
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
Threads go where they go, we all learn from the question. I do not understand why we want to limit responses to questions, we are all in it to learn what to do when we are faced with this. I did not even know this was an issue when you posted, now I do. I would have never thought that lippert or dexter would recommend jacking up by the frame. Although I disagree, I will be on the lookout for the reason why. And it is because of your question that I might avert damaging my rig. Thanks for asking and providing such an interesting topic. It is only lengthy because it induces so much information. Question? when you posted did you know all this? I certainly did not, now I do. Thanks for the post.
GOTTOYS
Well-known member
Unless you have a Level Up system the rear jacks are stabilizers. They are not designed to hold very much weight. You want to leave it attached to the truck so it can't roll or move when it's up in the air....Don
GOTTOYS
Well-known member
At the 2011 Goshen Rally this subject was brought up. The Lippert guys said not to lift by the axles. Period. The Dexter guy said even though it was stated otherwise in their manual..it is okay to lift it by placing a jack directly under the u-bolts on their axles. If I remember correctly he said to use a board between the axle and the jack. I know the axle tube is pretty thin and could be damaged from lifting it with a jack. That's why I chose my method of lifting by placing it next to the axle on the spring. There is absolutely nothing there you can damage...Don
caissiel
Senior Member
I have been jacking all my trailers by placing the jack under the axle for 40 years. There is surely an axle problem if the tube is crushed using this method. I would not drive one more mile with such an axle.
Be aware that placing a jack under a round tube is very dangerous due to possible slippage of the jack. I feel that it's a strong reason not to recommend placing the jack under the axle. Also some service dept will possibly place the jack away from the spring u-bolts causing additional stresses.
Be aware that placing a jack under a round tube is very dangerous due to possible slippage of the jack. I feel that it's a strong reason not to recommend placing the jack under the axle. Also some service dept will possibly place the jack away from the spring u-bolts causing additional stresses.
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
The OP wants a recommendation/source for a cradle for his bottle jack. my recommendation to him is to get a screw type bottle jack with a cradle on it already. One for a 1 ton truck would be more than adequate. Another comment pictured angle iron welded to the top of a hydraulic bottle jack to form a cradle to prevent the slippage you describe, it looked like a really good solution. I personally found my OEM bottle jack from my truck works great and the head is shaped to prevent the slippage you described.
Where did you get your jack and what keeps it from slipping off the axle as you described?
Where did you get your jack and what keeps it from slipping off the axle as you described?
porthole
Retired
Nowhere in ANY of the literature by lippert, dexter or heartland do they give you instructions on actually how to change the tires.
Why is that?
For the same reason they print the warnings listed above.
The jacks are physically too small and extended too much on an unstable surface - and on top of that, by your own description, on un-level ground.
The wood blocking is not oriented correctly and the plastic should not even be used.
The only time I have ever seen recreational 5th wheels properly jacked using hydraulics or "bottle jacks" is at MOR/ryde.
They use 4 hydraulic jacks, linked together to lift the frame equally - and they start on a flat, level concrete surface. I do not recall the size of the jacks, but they have a base diameter of about 16"
View attachment 32025
It is easy to not get the necessary lift if still attached to the truck. But, that said, for a tire change, I would always try first with the trailer hooked up.
Just don't go under the trailer
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TravelTiger
Founding Texas-West Chapter Leaders-Retired
I disagree with your assessment of our jacking. But I'm not going to argue.
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porthole
Retired
Disagreement is fine and not going to argue the point.
For anyone else looking at those pics - they should know that is an unstable lift.
porthole
Retired
Some good ideas these guys came up with.
Although the "railroad jack" pictured in the video at :38 is a highly unstable jack and should not be used for anything other then it's original purpose. When I was hired by Caterpillar years ago I was replacing, unbeknownst to me, a mechanic who was killed by using the wrong jack for the wrong job.
The above type of "jacks" work pretty good on smaller trailers. EZ-Jack is another similar type that the USCG uses on their small boat trailers, even the triple axle trailers.
http://www.highcountryplastics.com/.../locks-trailer-jacks/ez-jack-wheel-chock.html
I have used the EZ-jack and it works well. Never tried it on the Cyclone though, even if it does have a 20K rating I see no reason to risk fate when I have LevelUP.
I Also use a 3 board ramp for my motorcycle trailer for tire changes. Using boards can assist even on a 5th wheel if you were to jack by the axle (with a proper cradle).
Even if an item like Trailer-aid or EZ-Jack or just plain boards doesn't get you off the off ground, you will still gain an advantage by not having to jack the flat tire as high as you would without boards.
I thought the same thing until I tried lifting the Cyclone for a tire change (before LevelUp). Wanted to make sure I could actually change a tire on the road.
For starters, it was a good thing I tried. Since I had MOR/ryde IS I had nothing at the house that would allow me to lift on the outer plate of the IS (to low).
Stopped at a Tractor Supply on the way to the Hatteras rally and the only jack they had that would work was a "lo-profile" 20 ton bottle jack. As it turns out it was a great choice. Only $10 or so more then a 10 ton version, was the right height and it was very easy to lift the axle.
At the 2:12 mark in the BMI Hydraulics video, the hefty young buck is "working" to use the jack. A 20 ton is twice as easy to pump up as a 10 ton, maybe even easier. The model I have is a 2 stage. The base of the 20 ton is probably twice the surface area of smaller bottle jacks.
There are a couple of tricks to using it on the side of the road, especially if you have "grade issues".
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TravelTiger
Founding Texas-West Chapter Leaders-Retired
If you're going to call it unsafe, can you be more specific then about your statements, so we can learn why? You mentioned wrong blocking, and not to use plastic, but why? And how is using two 12 ton jacks less stable than one 20 ton, with the same footprint?
What will happen to make this unsafe?
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TravelTiger
Founding Texas-West Chapter Leaders-Retired
I just realized what may be concerning folks that this is unsafe. This is only ONE SiDE of the coach, not the whole coach up on jacks!
The other side, the tires are on the ground. The pin is hitched to the truck. So we are only raising (pivoting) the side of the coach about a foot. The blocks are ones all of us use under our landing gear or level/drive on, so I think they can handle the weight. That's two pressure-treated 6x6, screwed together.
When we've changed a tire using this method, we slightly loosen the lug nuts before raising, so not a lot of torque needed once the wheel is up.
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The other side, the tires are on the ground. The pin is hitched to the truck. So we are only raising (pivoting) the side of the coach about a foot. The blocks are ones all of us use under our landing gear or level/drive on, so I think they can handle the weight. That's two pressure-treated 6x6, screwed together.
When we've changed a tire using this method, we slightly loosen the lug nuts before raising, so not a lot of torque needed once the wheel is up.
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