Tow Max Blowout and Cyclone Damage
- Thread starter BarneyFife
- Start date
BarneyFife
Well-known member
HOC Newsletter? Heartland Highlights?
Is this available via the web?
Is this available via the web?
Lynn1130
Well-known member
I posted a thread much the same as this, at least concerning a failed Power King, several months back. This was on a new trailer with about 3000 miles on it. I no longer have any of those tires on or near my trailer.
I have a acquaintance who runs the local Discount Tire Internet warehouse. We were discussing my changing tires just as soon as I could reach the nearest Discount after the blowout. He said that the RV industry is the only industry he knows, including autos, boats etc. that under tire their products. One of the main factors is that they weigh the trailer empty and tire it for that weight. Guess what? It never weighs that light again in it's life. Too bad that most all of us did not know that when purchasing our RV or we could have demanded proper tires before signing the bottom line.
I have been pretty happy with Heartland Customer Service through our ownership, so far, but I honestly think they have dropped the ball on this one for all of us.
I have a acquaintance who runs the local Discount Tire Internet warehouse. We were discussing my changing tires just as soon as I could reach the nearest Discount after the blowout. He said that the RV industry is the only industry he knows, including autos, boats etc. that under tire their products. One of the main factors is that they weigh the trailer empty and tire it for that weight. Guess what? It never weighs that light again in it's life. Too bad that most all of us did not know that when purchasing our RV or we could have demanded proper tires before signing the bottom line.
I have been pretty happy with Heartland Customer Service through our ownership, so far, but I honestly think they have dropped the ball on this one for all of us.
danemayer
Well-known member
I don't know how your friend reaches that conclusion. The tires are rated for a max weight at a specified inflation.
The trailer Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) is the max trailer weight, not the empty weight, and tires are matched to GVWR.
As an example, our Landmark has a GVWR of 16,200. The empty weight is quite a bit less. Each of the 4 tires has a weight rating of 3750 when inflated properly. 4 x 3750 = 15,000. Now that is less than the GVWR, but that's because there's at least 2600 pounds of the 16,200 that sits on the hitch. So as long as I don't exceed GVWR, the max weight on the tires is 16,200 - 2,600 = 13,600, which is less than the tire capacity of 15,000.
Having weighed the trailer at the 2011 Heartland Rally, I know that my loaded trailer actually weighs 15,000 and 3,500 of that is on the hitch. So the tires are really carrying 11,500 vs a capacity of 15,000.
I also know the weight is not distributed evenly on each tire, but since the weight was measured at each wheel, I also know that there's a 300 pound margin on the rear ODS tire, which is the one carrying the most weight.
My point is that if you want to find out what's really going on, check the specs on your tires, inflate them properly, and get your rig weighed with and without tow vehicle, getting individual wheel weight.
scottyb
Well-known member
Maybe what Lynn1130's friend meant by "under tired" was not the tires load rating but the tires inferiority. All you have to do is read about a dozen topics on this forum as well as a few other forums to see where their quality stands. There are enough reports like this, that I was willing to spend $2K to get them off my trailer before it ever left my driveway.
danemayer
Well-known member
The post was pretty specific about tire failures being caused by manufacturers selecting tire capacity to match empty trailer weight.
I understand that Lynn1130 was probably just repeating what his friend in the business told him. Because the friend is in the tire business, it's easy to assume he knows more on this subject than the average person. Trouble is, the friend's information is demonstrably wrong and shows that the friend lacks understanding on the subject.
There are plenty of real reasons that tires fail - we don't need made-up reasons confusing the subject.
TXBobcat
Fulltime
I have had great service from Heartland. I have had my problems, but not all are caused by Heartland.
I had read this forum, Escapees forum, RV.net iRV2, 5thwheel and other forums before I purchased my Bighorn. When I bought my 2008 3400 I went to Discount Tire and had Michelin XPS Ribs installed all the way around. To this date I have had one XPS Rib blowout on me and I believe it was my fault for inflating above 80psi. I have had no other blowouts. I am looking to go to 17.5 rims and tires by next year.
I had, I believe, one of the first set of springs break on 10/10/2008 that was posted on the forum. The 3400 had 6k axles and springs. Replace the axles and springs with the help of Lippert. I still didn't like the way the trailer rode and I didn't like the drum brakes. So I put Mor/ryde 7k Independent Suspension and Kodiak 8k Disk Brakes.
I didn't like the way the dependability of the front landing gear so I had Quadra Bigfoot auto leveling system installed.
If Heartland had provided the trailer with all the changes I have made I could not have afforded the trailer and would have gone to another brand probably. Most people that buy an RV does not do a lot of research. Those that do know the downside of what they can afford. This is what I knew, but over a period of time, I can change the things I don't like to improve what I have.
This is why I will probably never sell my Bighorn. I could not afford a different trailer with all the changes I have made, so I will keep mine in as good condition as possible. That is why I am looking at 17.5" new rims. It will be even more dependable.
I think we all purchase what we can afford. Some that purchase what they can afford find out there are problems, they gripe, moan and groan about why it is so bad. Well they should have waited, saved more money and purchased the one that has everything they wanted. Who knows you could end up with a Prevost. It only cost a little bit more.
My opinion, you bought the best you could afford and from a good Mfgr, quit *****ing and fix it the way you want it, keep going and start to have fun. If you buy another brand what do you think you will get if you only buy what you can afford?
Heartland has done me fair, in fact they have gone above and beyond what I believe any other Mfgr would have.
Also by the way... This forum is outstanding. You get fair information from users and Heartland. I do have a number of friends on RV.net and other forums but the overall demeanor of the forums are completely different. I also post on the Escapees forum which is another great forum. I like the other forums, but Heartland and Escapees forums are my main places.
FWIW
BC
I had read this forum, Escapees forum, RV.net iRV2, 5thwheel and other forums before I purchased my Bighorn. When I bought my 2008 3400 I went to Discount Tire and had Michelin XPS Ribs installed all the way around. To this date I have had one XPS Rib blowout on me and I believe it was my fault for inflating above 80psi. I have had no other blowouts. I am looking to go to 17.5 rims and tires by next year.
I had, I believe, one of the first set of springs break on 10/10/2008 that was posted on the forum. The 3400 had 6k axles and springs. Replace the axles and springs with the help of Lippert. I still didn't like the way the trailer rode and I didn't like the drum brakes. So I put Mor/ryde 7k Independent Suspension and Kodiak 8k Disk Brakes.
I didn't like the way the dependability of the front landing gear so I had Quadra Bigfoot auto leveling system installed.
If Heartland had provided the trailer with all the changes I have made I could not have afforded the trailer and would have gone to another brand probably. Most people that buy an RV does not do a lot of research. Those that do know the downside of what they can afford. This is what I knew, but over a period of time, I can change the things I don't like to improve what I have.
This is why I will probably never sell my Bighorn. I could not afford a different trailer with all the changes I have made, so I will keep mine in as good condition as possible. That is why I am looking at 17.5" new rims. It will be even more dependable.
I think we all purchase what we can afford. Some that purchase what they can afford find out there are problems, they gripe, moan and groan about why it is so bad. Well they should have waited, saved more money and purchased the one that has everything they wanted. Who knows you could end up with a Prevost. It only cost a little bit more.
My opinion, you bought the best you could afford and from a good Mfgr, quit *****ing and fix it the way you want it, keep going and start to have fun. If you buy another brand what do you think you will get if you only buy what you can afford?
Heartland has done me fair, in fact they have gone above and beyond what I believe any other Mfgr would have.
Also by the way... This forum is outstanding. You get fair information from users and Heartland. I do have a number of friends on RV.net and other forums but the overall demeanor of the forums are completely different. I also post on the Escapees forum which is another great forum. I like the other forums, but Heartland and Escapees forums are my main places.
FWIW
BC
TXBobcat
Fulltime
Thanks Jim...
I just had a great idea..
Take the Cyclone and sell it. Yep.. Put new XPS Ribs on it. Add a second A/C if it only has one. Put Levelup on it. Put a TrailAir TriGlide Pin Box on it and include the TV so the new owners will have a TV.
Now sell it at the wholesale price. No?
Ok, put a set of cheap tires on it, make sure the landing gear is working and sell it at the best price you can get. When the new owner has a blowout you can replace the tires because of a blowout. Be sure to buy him a new set of tires even though he may have it overloaded or not. Now he may be angry with you because his F150 has trouble pulling it. You should have included your TV.
I would like to hear that conversation. Do you think it would sound familiar??
Don't get upset.. I am just pulling your chain and only mean this in jest, but is there any difference?
I really hope you get your Cyclone fixed and have a great time. This to shall pass.
God Bless and travel safe.
BC
I just had a great idea..
Take the Cyclone and sell it. Yep.. Put new XPS Ribs on it. Add a second A/C if it only has one. Put Levelup on it. Put a TrailAir TriGlide Pin Box on it and include the TV so the new owners will have a TV.
Now sell it at the wholesale price. No?
Ok, put a set of cheap tires on it, make sure the landing gear is working and sell it at the best price you can get. When the new owner has a blowout you can replace the tires because of a blowout. Be sure to buy him a new set of tires even though he may have it overloaded or not. Now he may be angry with you because his F150 has trouble pulling it. You should have included your TV.
I would like to hear that conversation. Do you think it would sound familiar??
Don't get upset.. I am just pulling your chain and only mean this in jest, but is there any difference?
I really hope you get your Cyclone fixed and have a great time. This to shall pass.
God Bless and travel safe.
BC
BarneyFife
Well-known member
I must disagree completely with you there Bobcat. I spend $55,000 on a darn camper. In the 15 months of ownership we have these issues to repair:
1. Return it to the dealership for brake failure.(two months after purchase)
2. Return it to the dealership again for brake failure. (Heartland says "Its Dexter's brakes, call Dexter")
3. Return it to the dealership AGAIN for brake failure. Dexter decides to replace the braking system to the 7K system.
4. Trim molding on both outside doors and garage door coming apart.
5. Wallpaper peeling in living room.
6. Water pump failure.
7. Black tank flush not hooked up. (First time we used it, it flooded the pass-through storage area.)
8. Winterization hose incorrectly installed. Hose could not be pulled out to use.
9. Plastic fenders cracking and coming off camper.
10. Second water pump failed.
11. Tow Max tire tread separation and subsequent damage. (Heartland tells me these are "some of the best trailer tires on the market.")
Some can sing Heartland praises all they want here. You can also "try" to convince me I should buy a $55,000 camper and then spend another boatload of money changing things like landing gear, suspension, and $2000 tires right away. I think you're crazy. As I've said before and I'll say again, I'll never slander Heartland ever. But whenever people ask me "How do you like that Cyclone?", I think I do a pretty good job of convincing them to buy a different brand. I know I'm in the minority here and that's actually a good thing for you folks. But the three times I've spoken with Heartland, they couldn't care less and were just interested in getting me off the phone.
No "gripe, moan, and groan" here. Just stating the facts. You take it how you want to.
1. Return it to the dealership for brake failure.(two months after purchase)
2. Return it to the dealership again for brake failure. (Heartland says "Its Dexter's brakes, call Dexter")
3. Return it to the dealership AGAIN for brake failure. Dexter decides to replace the braking system to the 7K system.
4. Trim molding on both outside doors and garage door coming apart.
5. Wallpaper peeling in living room.
6. Water pump failure.
7. Black tank flush not hooked up. (First time we used it, it flooded the pass-through storage area.)
8. Winterization hose incorrectly installed. Hose could not be pulled out to use.
9. Plastic fenders cracking and coming off camper.
10. Second water pump failed.
11. Tow Max tire tread separation and subsequent damage. (Heartland tells me these are "some of the best trailer tires on the market.")
Some can sing Heartland praises all they want here. You can also "try" to convince me I should buy a $55,000 camper and then spend another boatload of money changing things like landing gear, suspension, and $2000 tires right away. I think you're crazy. As I've said before and I'll say again, I'll never slander Heartland ever. But whenever people ask me "How do you like that Cyclone?", I think I do a pretty good job of convincing them to buy a different brand. I know I'm in the minority here and that's actually a good thing for you folks. But the three times I've spoken with Heartland, they couldn't care less and were just interested in getting me off the phone.
No "gripe, moan, and groan" here. Just stating the facts. You take it how you want to.
TravelTiger
Founding Texas-West Chapter Leaders-Retired
I'm not trying to be snarky, but I think our perception of value needs to be reconsidered. $55k for a (rolling) house with garage. Sounds like a real deal! The products the "builder" (Heartland) used in construction were intended to keep the price down, while giving us the luxury of a much pricier home. It happens that some of these products, most not mfg by Heartland, fail earlier than expected. Would you have paid $65k for this house/garage, if it had better brakes, better water pump, better wall boarder, better fenders?
If we want long-lasting, better quality, less headaches.... in a capitalistic society, we probably have to spend $$ to get it... And it seems it's always more than we can afford.... LOL!
Overall, the trailer does what it's intended... Let's you have a roof over your head, with water, electric, sewer, and a place to haul your toys, wherever you so desire, anywhere in this great country! I hope you can find a way to enjoy it, because that's what it's all about!!!
E
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If we want long-lasting, better quality, less headaches.... in a capitalistic society, we probably have to spend $$ to get it... And it seems it's always more than we can afford.... LOL!
Overall, the trailer does what it's intended... Let's you have a roof over your head, with water, electric, sewer, and a place to haul your toys, wherever you so desire, anywhere in this great country! I hope you can find a way to enjoy it, because that's what it's all about!!!
E
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
danemayer
Well-known member
Hi BarneyFife,
Your list of repairs is longer than anyone would want, and it's understandable that having to deal with a long list of problems takes a toll and robs you of the joy you'd expect to come from buying an expensive, new RV. I think we can all also understand that when disappointed, most people have to vent a bit.
I'll bet TXBobcat wasn't too happy last February when a blowout damaged his RV on the way to the Sweetheart Rally in Kerrville. But I noticed he had parts shipped to him at the rally and got some help from another Heartland owner to fix his RV right then and there. I think that set an example for all of us at the rally that we can get past the bad things that happen.
I hope your problems are behind you and after you vent a bit, that you can enjoy your Cyclone from here on out. Maybe you'll even get to a point where you've enjoyed your Cyclone enough that you form a different opinion.
jmgratz
Original Owners Club Member
I am just wondering out of all of those things listed wrong with the Cyclone how many were fixed for free under warranty? If they were then what is the problem other than the aggravation of having it in the shop. If you wanted to see my issues I wont have enough room on this page to list them, but on the other hand Heartland has stood behind their product. Also if I am correct the list price on that Cyclone is close to $80000 and you got it for $55000. Wow that is quite a discount. Did you complain when you got that discount? I think not. Just saying we have all had various items fail on our units and they will continue to fail due to the way we use them, the condition of the road, what we carry in them, how often we maintain them etc. Just keep in mind nothing made by machine or man is trouble free, especially RVs. I have talked to many RVers, from those that own pop-ups to those with Beavers and Prevosts and when you get in an honest conversation with them they will all admit to issues with their units. So, like my Dad used to say, we have to learn to 'Bend with the wind, like a tree" and hope the wind is not so strong it breaks us. Lets smile, be happy and go go go RVing enjoying the time we have left on this good ole earth. Happy Travels!!
Lynn1130
Well-known member
Danemayer,
All good points with the "under tire" issue and as was said I am just repeating what someone with a lot more knowledge of tires than I had said. I do know that when my PowerKing threw the tread and I went directly to the nearest Discount (Sierra Vista, AZ) the man there pointed out the weak, papery sidewall of the PowerKings compared to the Coopers that I put on (and he was not trying to sell as I had already made up my mind and they were being mounted). A tire may be rated for "XXX" what-ever but consider all of the stress and flex on the tires on a trailer. There is no differential in those axles to keep the tires from the stress of turns.
Considering all of the thrown tread, and blown tires on new RVs I would just hazard an uneducated guess that there is something out of the ordinary going on. In 55 years of driving I can count on one hand the number of tire failures on all of my cars, trucks and trailers except the RVs I have owned. Not a scientific poll but it does cause one to ponder the issue.
I am very happy with my Cyclone and with the service and help that Heartland has given. When we bought this house that we are in we had a punch-list three pages long. I expect that new things will have some issues so a few repairs on the trailer did not bother me.
All good points with the "under tire" issue and as was said I am just repeating what someone with a lot more knowledge of tires than I had said. I do know that when my PowerKing threw the tread and I went directly to the nearest Discount (Sierra Vista, AZ) the man there pointed out the weak, papery sidewall of the PowerKings compared to the Coopers that I put on (and he was not trying to sell as I had already made up my mind and they were being mounted). A tire may be rated for "XXX" what-ever but consider all of the stress and flex on the tires on a trailer. There is no differential in those axles to keep the tires from the stress of turns.
Considering all of the thrown tread, and blown tires on new RVs I would just hazard an uneducated guess that there is something out of the ordinary going on. In 55 years of driving I can count on one hand the number of tire failures on all of my cars, trucks and trailers except the RVs I have owned. Not a scientific poll but it does cause one to ponder the issue.
I am very happy with my Cyclone and with the service and help that Heartland has given. When we bought this house that we are in we had a punch-list three pages long. I expect that new things will have some issues so a few repairs on the trailer did not bother me.
danemayer
Well-known member
I agree with you that we see too many failures on RV tires. My unscientific opinion is that we could use additional margin to make it less likely that we exceed the design capabilities of the tire. On our rig, with only 300 pounds of margin on one of the tires, I'm not completely comfortable.
The Goodyear load limits data sheet shows that if I allow the tire pressure to drop from 110 to 100 lbs, I lose most of my load margin. I know that my moderately priced tire gauge is probably not accurate, so I air up to 115 on the gauge and trust that my TPMS is more accurate when it then reads 110. The point is, if I trusted the gauge, I'd be starting out at 105 and could easily get below the load limit needed for that tire. And of course the TPMS provides constant monitoring so that I know when air is needed.
I also know from the Goodyear data sheet that the load rating is for 65mph. I limit my speed to between 55 and 57 mph. That gives me some additional margin.
Will the TPMS, slower driving, and Goodyear name keep me from a blowout? Who knows.
codycarver
Founding Wyoming Chapter Leader-retired
The thing with our RV tires is they are always "LOADED" near or over their max rating. Add to that folks traveling down the interstate 75+ MPH on tires rated at 65 MPH max and your just asking for trouble. I have lots of tires on lots of things but none of them carry loads like that so it's not surprising to me that I hardly ever see a failure on those vehicles.
David Grey had an excellent article on tire safety in the 3rd quarter of the Heartland Highlights. The online quarterly news letter is one of the perks available to all HOC members.
David Grey had an excellent article on tire safety in the 3rd quarter of the Heartland Highlights. The online quarterly news letter is one of the perks available to all HOC members.
RCF
Active Member
Dan, the info I found on Goodyear's website shows the "G" rated G614 tires are rated for 75mph - hopefully that adds to your comfort level a little bit!
DW_Gray
Well-known member
Dan, the info I found on Goodyear's website shows the "G" rated G614 tires are rated for 75mph - hopefully that adds to your comfort level a little bit!
When RVers towing their trailers pass me at 75mph, that makes my comfort level extremely uncomfortable. It's okay for the truckers but I don't think our houses on wheel were built for that kind of speed. Consider additional stress that is caused on the mechanical parts of the suspension alone.
danemayer
Well-known member
RCF,Dan, the info I found on Goodyear's website shows the "G" rated G614 tires are rated for 75mph - hopefully that adds to your comfort level a little bit!
If I'm reading the tables correctly, although the G614 is rated at up to 75, the nominal speed is 65. To safely carry the max load at 75mph, you have to increase the tire pressure by 10psi - from 110 to 120 psi. BUT, you can't increase it to a value higher than the rating of the wheel/rim which I believe is 110 psi on our rigs. So if I understand it correctly, driving with G614s at 75 mph with a max load and tires at 110 psi means you're effectively overloading the tire, weakening it and setting up a future failure.
And even if you had wheels that allowed you to increase tire pressure to 120, the load tables don't give you any increase in load capacity. So I think I just get the improvement of dropping from 65 to 55, which looks like it might be around 5% (maybe as much as 9%). But I'll hazard a guess that my 300 pound weight margin (8% of 3750) might be additive with the 5% reduced speed margin. I'll take it.
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