Towing 2013 3010 with Lifted truck ????

[EandJ]

As Jim mentioned, the only option to tow and keep the lift is to use a tow dolly (drop axle) like the Automated Safety Hitch System. Currently it's the only system on the market. Otherwise, you'll need to remove the lift from you truck.

I looked at the website for this and was starting to get all excited. Maybe I could someday graduate to a 5er! (We have to have a eight-seat vehicle for kids). They even had a picture of an Excursion towing one!

But then I started thinking and reading about it more - could I even pull a fifth wheel? My 2003 Excursion has a max towing of 12,000 lbs. The tow dolly probably weighs 1000-1500 lbs. So in reality that would leave me with just over 10,000 lbs of fifth wheel and no cushion. Aren't most of the Heartland fifth wheels 14,000 lbs and up? Or am I calculating wrong here?

Guess I'm stuck in travel trailer realm for a while.

 

[DW_Gray]

You need to keep reading. It increases tow capacity by 50 percent.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[EandJ]

I saw that after I posted. But it still did not make sense. What does it magically do to make my Excursion that much more capable?

Nothing about my engine, drivetrain, frame is improved - the only improvement I saw was additional braking power. Are brakes the only thing limiting my towing capacity to 12,000 lbs? (Or 11,000 lbs - I've seen both listed for my TV)

This seems like marketing speak. I would love for it to be this easy (albeit expensive) but I'm still skeptical.

 

[DW_Gray]

You guessed it. The primary limiting factor for towing is the braking ability. Engine and drivetrain does come into play as far as the ability to tow well uphill. That depends upon the amount of engine torque and gear ratio in the rear axle. I don't know what the history is for Excursions transmission. No matter, the Excursion will tow. I don't know what engine you have. If it's the diesel, you should have plenty of torque. If it's the V10 with the 4.30 axle ratio, you're in good shape. The GCWR is 20,000 pounds. I recommend you weigh the SUV fully loaded without the trailer. Then subtract the weight from the GCWR. That will give you your true towing capacity. Add 50% to the true towing capacity and you could tow up to that amount using the Automated Safety Hitch System. Personally, if it were me, I'd consider adding only 40% just to be a little conservative for the gas engine.

 

[EandJ]

I have the 7.3L diesel with I belive the 3.73 rearend. I knew CGWR was 20,000 lbs. That pretty much works out to somewhere between 11,000-12000 lbs towing as the door sticker (FWIW) says 7800 lb curb weight. Add the 150 lb driver and that gets to the 12000 lbs listed in my manual and on my factory receiver hitch. I know there are variables like my wife and kids, my belly and the firewood I usually load in back - so I kinda go with the 11000 that is in the towing guide. the GVWR on my trailer is 8600 lbs - so even its not entirely accurate - I should be a couple thousand lbs under in total weight. (Still need to weigh the individual axles, etc). So I'm probably good with current rig. We could just use the space of something like one of the big Cyclones with the loft beds and drop down queens in back.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around a 40-50% increase in towing capacity by adding braking power. Would the same be possible by upgrading my Excursion brakes to the best out there? It seems like that would be a lot cheaper than the Automated Hitch. (although in my particular case - I need the other functionality of it to tow a fifth wheel since no pickup I can afford seats 8)

FYI - I'm not trying to be difficult - really trying to figure out what I'm missing here. I read a long thread on this product on another forum populated mainly by RV's with HD trucks. They seemed to think it might be helpful in very specific situations - but mostly for gooseneck trailers, not fifth wheels due to the stresses involved.

 

[EandJ]

One other quick question I did not see about the Safety Hitch. Since it stays attached to your 5er when you park - how do you level front to back?

 

[DW_Gray]

In the nicest way possible with a smiling face , I say, after what you just shared, you really need to weigh the Excursion fully loaded. I suspect you may be underestimating the weight. Upgrading the brake pads on any vehicle won't improve the towing capacity by 40%. If it were possible, I suppose one could install a bigger brake system on all four wheels. Unless a DIY person knew how to do that, I don't think there would be that big of savings. In your situation that wouldn't help you for reason you can't attach a fifth wheel hitch to the Excursion. The Safety Hitch will add safety features you'll not get with bigger brakes or a bigger truck.

I have read several forums, including the thread you mentioned. I spent two days totaling about 4 hours with Joe Jamieson, the hitch inventor. From what I've leaned, a lot of those opinions on those forums are just opinions based on ignorance. That's all I say for now. My article will be published in the next Heartland Highlights.

You can leave the hitch attached and level as normal even if the hitch is picked up off the ground. Now it may be a problem for the single motor electric landing gear because of the weight. Leaving it attached is a nice feature because it can be easily be swung out of the way, clearing space in the front. There is the possibility that the hitch may have to be removed if the trailer hitch pin has to be lowered more than the hitch will allow. That should be rare.

 

[EandJ]

Just now getting back to this thread - Dave - I had a brain fart in my previous post. I gave you the GVWR of my wife's vehicle (never will tow) not the Excursion. It is 9200 lbs. Thats where I'm underestimating the weight by a good 1400 lbs.

I mentioned that one thread because it was the only one I found anywhere where there was any real discussion at all on the Safety Hitch even with the extreme dose of skepticism. All the other threads I found on it basically were - "It's illegal in some states cause it's double-trailering" - (false) or flat out "It will never work" with no discussion as to why/why not. There were at least a couple of the HD truck guys trying to understand it and give it a chance even though they didn't need it.

Hurry up and finish your article. I want to read it and that convinced me to use the introductory membership and join the HOC.

 

[DW_Gray]

EandJ, I'm not sure we are on the same page of music, so to speak. GVWR is the maximum weight your vehicle is allowed to carry. That is listed on your vehicle's certification label near your front driver side door. You'll also find the front and rear GAWR which is the maximum weight allowed on each of the axles. GCWR is the maximum recommended combined weight of both the tow vehicle and the trailer including all the contents carried. Never pay any attention to any listed curb weight of the tow vehicle.

The only way to know the true and correct towing capacity is to weigh the tow vehicle with it fully loaded with everything in it just as if you were going camping. Once the tow vehicle is weighed, subtract that weight from the GCWR. In your case that is 20,000 pounds.

Example:
GCWR: 20,000
Tow Veh. Wt. -8,360
True Tow Cap. 11,640

I hope I didn't insult your intelligence. Without the benefit of a phone conversation, this is our only limited from of communication that's available.

 

[EandJ]

Not at all. Most of the problem has been my imprecise typing. Usually due to posting at work (shhh!) in a hurry. And giving you the wrong vehicle information. I agree that this is not the best medium for discussion. Plus right now my enter key is not working - sorry for the run-on paragraph. You are correct - GCWR : 20,000. GVWR: 9200. I have not weighed my truck yet. But for discussion purposes - I've read 7688 dry weight for diesel engine. Add about 725 for my family. about 315 for full tank. And about 250 for what I usually stuff in the back of the Excursion (4 boxes of firewood - no spare tire, not much else) + 50 for misc. That would run me at about 9028 lbs. So I've got about 10972 lbs towing capacity which means I should be OK with the NorthTrail. But one problem is my GVWR leaves me only 172 lbs for hitch + tongue weight. Am I thinking this through correctly - assuming actual Excursion weight comes out somewhere close to what I just figured?

 

[DW_Gray]

You are thinking it through very well. The other issue that you want to consider is the weight on the rear axle of your Excursion while towing the NorthTrail. There are couple of resources that may help you. 1. The free Before You Buy RV app and 2. The Conventional Towing Weight Safety Report. If you're overloading the rear axle, that could lead to some problems, depending on how much it may be overloaded. The more you put in the SUV, the less available weight you have for the tongue weight. I've learned this has been a problem on some of the other forums. You also need to make sure you have the right tires to carry the load.

 

[EandJ]

Hmmm. Not good. Even if I move the firewood (250lbs) to inside the trailer, we would still probably be too heavy. So what is the purpose of a 3/4 ton SUV that can't metaphorically tow itself out of a paper bag? I believe you (and the numbers). But with basically there is under 500 lbs tongue weight available with a full tank and all our seats filled. And my kids don't weigh much at all . If I had porkers, we would have no tongue weight at all. From what I understand, the only difference between the Excursion and the F350's was basically they pulled one of the leaf springs out to make it ride better. Is that correct? If so - could I replace it and gain additional weight on the rear axle (total vehicle). Or a set of air bags? What is interesting is I have a 97 F350 with the same engine (7.3) and a 4.10 axle vs the 3.73 in the Excursion. It has the same GVWR. The Excursion actually pulls the trailer better as far as acceleration and going up mountains, etc. It did however have a problem with swaying (especially when passed by 18-wheelers) that did not happen in the F350. I'm pretty sure that was attributable to me going to a shorter wheelbase with the Excursion vs. the CrewCab Long bed. I solved that problem by replacing my regular WD hitch (with sway bar) with a ProPride. The rig is rock-solid now. I know to get final answers I need to weigh everything. But that will have to wait till I get my trailer back - its back at dealer for warranty work. The leaking wardrobe slide that was fixed actually wasn't.

 

[DW_Gray]

Okay. I think it's time to slow down a bit. Take a breather. I don't want to be a contributory of you going to the ER for an anxiety attack. (Or your wife hitting you over the head with a frying pan.)

At this point, I recommend that when you get the North Trail back, go to the scale, get the three weigh-ins completed and then complete the report. Post the report here or send me copy to my email address. Then we'll be able to discuss your options. Note: There is a printable worksheet available at Step 1 to guide you with the weighing.

Hang in there. We'll get through this methodically and ensure the safety for your family.

 

[EandJ]

LOL. I wasn't hyperventilating although it probably looks like it from my typing. I couldn't make paragraphs last night. Still can't. Enter key is still not working for me???? I am going to stick with this set up for quite some time as there is no money for anything else. I was trying to convey too many thoughts without the ability to space/separate them coherently. I realize I am probably overweight on rear axle/GVRW. Just trying to figure out the best path out with constraints I have. (Money, # of seats needed). Will definitely get back to you when Ihave hard data. The Safety Hitch is what originally got me all excited thinking in a few years of maybe replacing my TT with a toy hauler that has the double queens in back and loft beds and still being able to pull it with the Excursion. I'm still intrigued/curious about how the GCWR can effectively get bumped up by 40-50% with the Safety Hitch. Would there also be a corresponding increase in my "effective GVRW"?

 

[DW_Gray]

Would there also be a corresponding increase in my "effective GVRW"?

That's a good question. Maybe and maybe not. You still want to avoid overloading the axle springs. I think that would be the weakest link. But you could add air bags if needed. If you're carrying your family load fine now, I'm not sure there is need to attempt to carry more in your SUV. From what you have said, it sounds full already. Maybe you could carry more, but do you really want to push the envelope? Consider the safety for your family. Like you noted, you're towing a long trailer with a short wheelbase vehicle. Once you get all the weighing completed, we'll know what we are working with.

 

[DW_Gray]

Anybody towing a Cyclone with a lifted truck ? I have a 6" lift with 35's. I have seen quite a few people towing with lifts ??? Any help ? Thanks

Here is a pic of lifted truck I received today that uses the Automated Safety Hitch System.

 

[porthole]

Here is a pic of lifted truck I received today that uses the Automated Safety Hitch System.
View attachment 24408

That setup would double the tolls here on the right coast

 

[DW_Gray]

That setup would double the tolls here on the right coast

I don't think the lift/drop axle would count. But I'll check on that to be sure.

 

[DW_Gray]

I don't think the lift/drop axle would count. But I'll check on that to be sure.

Well, I was wrong. The lift/drop axle on the ground will count as a chargeable axle for toll fees.

So, the best thing to do is avoid the toll roads and take the scenic route. I did that going though Oklahoma.

 

[DW_Gray]

Here is pic of a lifted truck towing with the Automated Safety Hitch System.