Towing a Cyclone 4200

[cdensomnia]

Hello All, As I am patiently waiting on my trailer to be completed and delivered to the dealer I am trying to decide between two trucks. Hoping some of you might have some opinions. I am looking at a 2011 F450 or a 2013 F350 DRW. The price difference is around 4k. The F350 is a Kind Ranch and pretty much has every option imaginable. The F450 is a lariat so still has all the options I really care about. They both have roughly the same mileage on them. In everything I read for the 2011 and up F450's are really just a F350 with a wider axle in the front. I like the tighter turning radius you get with the F450 and that wider front axle. The F350 given thats its newer has the 14k gvwr package. The F450 says 13300 gvwr. Given the year difference there really isn't much difference between the trucks as I can see. Which do you all think will hold its value better and be the better truck for towing the Cyclone 4200?

 

[BLHFUN]

Great choice on both the truck and trailer. The 350 DRW is enough truck, but barely enough. It my exact set up and you are pushing 30, to 31k with full tanks and ready to dry camp. ( also depending on what you are carrying in the garage. If I had it all to do again, I would have bought the 450. It's not my daily driver, so gear ratio was not an issue for me. The 430 gears and heavier breaking system would be my choice. The 350 can handle way more trailer, but not legally.

Congrats on the new 4200!

 

[DW_Gray]

Congratulations on you new 4200. I'm sure you'll like it. One tool that may help you decide between the two trucks is the RV Tow Check app. Plug in the truck's numbers to help you discover the one that may have the best towing capacity for your needs.

 

[cdensomnia]

Thanks Bart, the crazy thing is between the 2011 and 2013 years it actually appears the numbers are better on the F350 since its newer. It actually has the higher GVWR. Kind of crazy! We actually wont be putting anything in the garage except some lightweight computer equipment as I will be working out of the garage when we are camping. We also wont be dry camping anywhere so I don't plan on carrying with tanks full. I really love your full body paint but just couldn't quite convince myself to spend the money on the paint job.

 

[BLHFUN]

Thanks Bart, the crazy thing is between the 2011 and 2013 years it actually appears the numbers are better on the F350 since its newer. It actually has the higher GVWR. Kind of crazy! We actually wont be putting anything in the garage except some lightweight computer equipment as I will be working out of the garage when we are camping. We also wont be dry camping anywhere so I don't plan on carrying with tanks full. I really love your full body paint but just couldn't quite convince myself to spend the money on the paint job.

The 350 will be plenty of truck then. I'm on the extreme side with weight (I think). But even with my Harley and trailer in the garage, my 350 pulled this thing up to Estes Park last year zero issues. We also visited the smokies and had no troubles with the mountains. Post some pictures once you take delivery!

 

[scottyb]

The GCWR of the 2013 F350 w 14K GVWR is 30500. We weighed in at 30350 with our fully loaded 4100 w 2K in the garage. Your 4200 weighs a little more but I doubt you will have as much in your garage as we did, since the garage is smaller. The 2013 F350 handled it with ease, including mountains out west. The only down side was the lack of a useful exhaust brake. You will have to go to a 2015 or to a Ram or GM for that. I also agree that if it is only to tow the Cyclone, go with the 4.30 gears.

 

[porthole]

A agree with Scotty on the 450, but in your case I would go with the newer truck for the reasons I mentioned in the other thread you asked that question in.

Personally I would look at the overall picture as well. If you are financing, rates are usually lower on new.
Sometimes the used trucks really are not that much of a bargain compared to new once you factor in remaining warranty, book value, features etc.

 

[BLHFUN]

Scotty, I see you had the same truck that I have now. Not sure I totally agree with your "Useful" exhaust brake comment. The Tow Mode activates the brake - as you know it's Back pressure to the Turbo - As I was coming down from Estes last year, I backed down to 40 and set the cruise control. - I'm not sure I touched my brakes one time. ( As long as your in tow mode of course ) - I don't have working knowledge of the Cummins or the Dura Max EB's, But I have been really happy with the 13' and the EB in tow mode.

Were you not happy with the EB, or just bouncing against an earlier model?

 

[scottyb]

Bart, I am aware of how the Tow Mode was supposed to work and the RPM's needed to be up. The F350 was an every day driver and work truck for me and I put 68K mi on it in 22 months. I tried it every which way with and w/o the Cyclone behind it. I am now driving our other truck, a 2013 F250, and it is the same. Here's a video from Ford explaining how it was supposed to function.

 

[porthole]

And that video is the Mike Rowe propaganda video that explains how EGR, exhaust gas recirculation works.
There is nothing in that video that shows an exhaust brake, and for a good reason.

 

[Dryer]

I have a 09 f450. When I purchased it 2 years ago we had trouble getting financing do to the truck not having a nada value. It has a kbb value but no nada because the 450 is considered a commercial vehicle. We had to use a credit union or ford finance and it was a extremely high rate. You have to go threw ford commercial credit. That's the only thing to to consider.

 

[scottyb]

And that video is the Mike Rowe propaganda video that explains how EGR, exhaust gas recirculation works.
There is nothing in that video that shows an exhaust brake, and for a good reason.

I believe we had this conversation once. Although Mike Rowe did refer to it as an "exhaust brake function", it's certainly not a Jacobs brake. I found it to be totally ineffective and didn't feel any different to me than my 07 Chevy/Duramaz did with only engine braking. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Ford go to to turbo back pressure method in 2015, along with the larger turbo?

 

[BLHFUN]

I guess I misunderstood the engine break all together. My last F350 was a 99 and would pull a house off the foundation at 21 MPG, but the lack of anything other than the break pedal, the new 13 in tow mode feels like a dream. Appreciate the lesson.

 

[Bob&Patty]

Dont know about Ford or Dodge, but the GM exhaust brake works with the turbo vains and transmission without having to be in tow/haul mode. It does not have a valve of any kind in the exhaust pipes. I am a little confused about the new Dodge (cummins) exhaust brake. Do they now have real "Jacob's brake rocker boxes" now like big 'ol trucks have??

 

[porthole]

Dont know about Ford or Dodge, but the GM exhaust brake works with the turbo vains and transmission without having to be in tow/haul mode. It does not have a valve of any kind in the exhaust pipes. I am a little confused about the new Dodge (cummins) exhaust brake. Do they now have real "Jacob's brake rocker boxes" now like big 'ol trucks have??

No "Jake brake" Bob. Did you know the the "Jacobs aka Jake Brake" actually came about after Mr. Cummins, the Father of Cummins Diesel, almost hit a train, back in the 30's? Took him some time to develop it and by then ironically he ended up leaving the company he started. So, Jacobs ended up being the manufacturer, a marriage in more ways then one.

The big three all now use the turbo outer vane manipulation to control both boost and turbo braking, and it is very effective. Side benefits to the VGT variable vane turbo or VNT variable nozzle turbo as Ram calls it, is a waste gate is not necessary and by closing the vanes in a coast mode we get turbo-engine braking. And, the technology is already there so it is just some programming to add the turbo brake feature.

Fords new for 2015 larger turbo takes advantage of the VGT and resulted in several pluses. The two stage sequential compressor (it is not a "twin turbo") was replaced with a single larger compressor and full VGT manipulation.
The VGT allows the larger compressor to act like a small compressor at low speeds (throttle response - turbo lag) and being larger allows higher flows at higher RPMS and loads. The smaller sequential turbo was the achilles heel when the Ford's were compared to the GMC and Ram in the tow off challenges.

There was a reason GMC or Ram centric tow tests were done at plus 10,000 feet of elevation. At that altitude the Scorpion started to choke for air.


GM was the first IIRC to use the VGT technology and then Banks Performance took it a step further when they figured out you could manipulate those vanes to help you slow down, as well as accelerate.
I had the Banks "Speed Brake" on my 06 GMC. I had some issues with it and between myself and Banks Engineering we were never able to solve the problem with my truck so I had to remove it. But, when the brake worked correctly, it was awesome. On level 3 (of 3) and with no trailer, it felt as though and anchor was dropped out of the bed. It was so effective you could not just drive around with no load on level 3.

One of the techniques to get the most effectiveness out of the various engine "slowing" methods is the tow haul mode. Typical in tow haul is increased transmission line pressures, higher rpm up and downshifts and lower speed and gear range of torque converter lockup. My GMC locked the converter in 2-6 gears in T/H.

For anyone that is interested there are plenty of decent videos on you tube.

This first, the Ram engineer Dave Connor in this video is the brother of my partner at work.
http://blog.ramtrucks.com/ram-technology/cummins-6-7s-biggest-fan-pt-6-no-feet-with-exhaust-brake/

A white board explanation of VGT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdjsNPeCLQs&sns=em

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AROIRu6tm4&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc2awh0O0Bc&feature=youtu.be

I believe we had this conversation once.

or twice
or thrice