Water supply protection for sub-freezing temps

[TravelTiger]

Hi all,

I’d like to get some suggestions to help the management of the park we are living in. It’s a brand new park and they are not well-prepared for continuous sub-freezing temps that we are about to experience this week.

Their solution is to cut all water off for the next few days, including the bathhouse. Eeeek! How do you have an rv park with no running water?

I’m looking for some ideas that could help them in the future.

Each of the sites have a water supply spigot. That spigot is fed by a pex line, that comes up out of the ground and through a 2” square metal tube. Then the spigot is attached to the tube. The tube is then filled with spray foam.

The rv park management is fearful that these will freeze when temps get into the 20s and below. They have wrapped the square tube with pipe insulation and covered the spigot with a bucket, but they don’t trust this.

What can I suggest that will protect these water supplies, yet keep them operational for users? Even if we have to fill tanks only during sub freezing weather that would be ok, if we could be assured the spigot would not freeze.

The park has about 65 sites, and none of the square pipes are the same height. Some are taller, some are shorter.

Any constructive suggestions are appreciated!


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[TravelTiger]

Moderators, change the title to SUB-freezing, not Sun-freezing. It’s going to be cold but not THAT cold.


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[cookie]

Your wish is my command.

Peace
Dave

 

[danemayer]

Wrap the tubing and spigot with heat tape plugged into the pedestal and cover with a bucket that has a small opening at ground level for your hose. Insulate the bucket. The heat from the heat tape will stay within the bucket. That may do the trick.

Tiger Run has a "doghouse" that sits on top of the water riser, with a freeze-proof spigot coming out. The wood structure has thick expanding foam on top and on each side. There's heat tape on the riser and connections in the doghouse. But there, the riser also has a heat probe built in which your park wouldn't have. Of course Tiger Run gets down to -20 and -30 (F) at times. Your park probably stays above 20 (F).

I've also been in a Colorado park in Pagosa Springs that turned water off at night, but they had a freeze proof riser/spigot and were just being extremely cautious. Water would be on during the day so you could fill your fresh tank.

And of course, their planned approach of shutting off the water won't help unless they also drain the system.

Bathhouse? Hard to say.

 

[TravelTiger]

Wrap the tubing and spigot with heat tape plugged into the pedestal and cover with a bucket that has a small opening at ground level for your hose. Insulate the bucket. The heat from the heat tape will stay within the bucket. That may do the trick.

Tiger Run has a "doghouse" that sits on top of the water riser, with a freeze-proof spigot coming out. The wood structure has thick expanding foam on top and on each side. There's heat tape on the riser and connections in the doghouse. But there, the riser also has a heat probe built in which your park wouldn't have. Of course Tiger Run gets down to -20 and -30 (F) at times. Your park probably stays above 20 (F).

I've also been in a Colorado park in Pagosa Springs that turned water off at night, but they had a freeze proof riser/spigot and were just being extremely cautious. Water would be on during the day so you could fill your fresh tank.

And of course, their planned approach of shutting off the water won't help unless they also drain the system.

Bathhouse? Hard to say.

Dan some weather apps show us going to -2 for a low, 12 for a high. I’ve not seen temps this low in my life in Texas. New Mexico at 8,000 feet, yes. But not here. And temps not expected above freezing for 5 days.

Some water supplies are taller than a 5 gallon bucket by 8” or more, so that may not be the right cover for all.

Any suggestions on type of heat tape? I don’t have any knowledge of how best to use it. Some say you need water in the pipe to use, and that won’t work for our scenario as the 2” square pipe just “supports” the 1/2” pex.


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[danemayer]

Dan some weather apps show us going to -2 for a low, 12 for a high. I’ve not seen temps this low in my life in Texas. New Mexico at 8,000 feet, yes. But not here. And temps not expected above freezing for 5 days.

Some water supplies are taller than a 5 gallon bucket by 8” or more, so that may not be the right cover for all.

Any suggestions on type of heat tape? I don’t have any knowledge of how best to use it. Some say you need water in the pipe to use, and that won’t work for our scenario as the 2” square pipe just “supports” the 1/2” pex.


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I think if the heat tape is around the square pipe, and it's all covered, that it won't matter whether there's water in the PEX. The heat tape won't damage the square pipe and not enough heat would be transmitted to the PEX to cause damage. And if the water feed is all PEX, even if it freezes, it should survive. Unless it's a freeze-proof type, the spigot is probably the most vulnerable component.

A bucket is just a quick and inexpensive cover. They could take a kitchen trash can, build a 6X6 or 8x8 square form and fill the space between the can and form with expanding foam. Once thick insulation is in place, it won't take a lot of heat inside to keep the temp inside the form above freezing.

Some heat tape is self regulating. Here's what I've used before.

Might be good to attach some weight to the top of the bucket/can.

 

[Flick]

Dan some weather apps show us going to -2 for a low, 12 for a high. I’ve not seen temps this low in my life in Texas. New Mexico at 8,000 feet, yes. But not here. And temps not expected above freezing for 5 days.

Some water supplies are taller than a 5 gallon bucket by 8” or more, so that may not be the right cover for all.

Any suggestions on type of heat tape? I don’t have any knowledge of how best to use it. Some say you need water in the pipe to use, and that won’t work for our scenario as the 2” square pipe just “supports” the 1/2” pex.


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To get thru this cold snap, you may have to use a combination of the suggestion already offered and anything else that works. Here on the farm, we like to use old comforters or quilts and then cover with plastic sheeting tied on to keep everything dry. When the towels, sheets, etc., get wet they lose their ability to insulate. Most everyone should have something to help out at their site. After the freeze, you reclaim your quilts etc. and nothing lost.
With most folk using water at least every couple hours, it should keep things working. If things do freeze up, the wrap will keep pipes from bursting as we have found that the pipes usually burst on the thaw cycle.

 

[TravelTiger]

Well to follow up, the park wrapped the square pipe in pipe insulation and covered them with buckets, but failed to really insulate the spigots. Many have frozen. We had already wrapped ours well in insulation, blocks of foam from another project, and lined the bucket with silver bubble wrap. Our heated hose was connected. Ours did not freeze. However, the park decided to cut the water off for the whole park, hoping to save anything they can, including the water to the buildings, as the weather continues to stay below freezing and drops to negative temps in the coming days. This is extremely rare for Texas, and I guess the park was not built with this scenario in mind. We’ve disconnected our hose and will run off our tank. We have a fresh tank heat pad, fresh line heat pad and the lines to the kitchen sink have heat cable on them. A drop light behind the basement wall is helping keep the plumbing and pump warmer. A few space heaters supplement our CheapHeat.

Only only issue is that our sewer line is long and likely frozen. The clear section looks like solid ice. Hope we are able to be conservative with our water usage.


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[travelin2]

We’ll be dry camping here in Brownsville later today for the next couple. The low temp for tonight and tomorrow night is to be mid 20’s. Even though tomorrow’s high is forecast for mid 40’s I’ll leave our hose disconnected until Tuesday
We’ve been out numerous nights in the past when temps dip below freezing. Parks have done everything from shutting off water to dripping the faucets. Of course in northern parks “frost proof” hydrants are the norm but specific practices need followed to prevent freeze up.
Around the clock below freezing temps add a different wrinkle to the situation to provide running water. IMO without initial plans in the construction it’d be difficult to overcome.
The heat tape wrap, with a wrap around the spigot, wrapped again with insulation then covered with a bucket or foam “rose cone” is a good suggestion but few campers are equipped to hook up their water anyway so shutting off the water supply appears appropriate


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[jayc]

When we worked for a state park, we were instructed to turn the water on in an empty site and leave it on until the temperature rose above freezing. I know it's wasteful of a precious resource but nothing froze up in the park. I suppose the money spent in repairs offset any cost for the additional water.