wires on electric heating element

[Tweitekamp]

I have a 2010 Sundance that the electric element was popping the breaker. I disconnected the white wire and wrapped it in tape plus flipped the switch on the hot water heater itself to off just as a safety precaution. We have used the unit 2 times just using the propane to heat the water and that is just fine but wanted to fix the electric element anyway.

This morning I replaced the element and electricuted myself at the same time. I left all the switches (in the rv and on the water heater) in the off position but when I took the electrical tape off the white wire to hook it up, I shocked myself while touching the burner tube. It also sparked when it touched the metal housing when I dropped the wire. I immediately flipped the master breaker in the fuse panel to off along with all the individual breakers AND unplugged the rv from my 30 AMP plug in inside my shed. That ultimately killed the power to the white wire. I hooked the two wired (black and white) back up to the new element but am nervous to turn all power back on.

Question: Why did the white wire have juice going thru it if the on/off switch on the hot water heater itself was OFF? Is something not right on the toggle switch outside the rv? Is this normal to always have juice thru the white wire?

I am afraid to turn power back on to the coach IF I have the chance of messing up the new heating element.

Thoughts???

Todd

 

[danemayer]

The white wire at the element is neutral, if I'm not mistaken. If you got a shock handling it, either neutral is hot or the water heater frame is hot.

Get a non-contact voltage tester from the hardware store so you can figure out what's carrying voltage without touching. They cost <$20. Don't bother with the <$10 tester.

With power disconnected from the pedestal, I'd disconnect that white wire again and retape it. Then turn on power and start testing for power. Check the RV skin, the water heater frame, and the white wire to see if any are hot.


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[cookie]

I would also revisit the wiring in your shed. That may be the start of the problem.
Do you have some sort of electrical management system? That should have caught a mis-wired receptacle.

Peace
Dave

 

[Tweitekamp]

I think the wiring in the shed is good. Brand new.

Is the white wire common?

I think the black is power? If power is supplied, it would complete the circuit?

 

[cookie]

Yes, white is neutral and black is power. Bare copper is ground.
For my own safety I would not 'think' something is good. I want to know. It may be new, but it also may not be wired correctly.
Also would want to look at the origin of the wires that go to the shed.
Don't over look anything.
The problem may be in your coach or elsewhere. At this point it is unknown.

Peace
Dave

 

[Tweitekamp]

Just verified with our service manager in the shop and he said that everything is fine. If white is neutral...it will carry voltage and that is why I got a bite this morning. The switch on the hot water heater breaks the circuit for the black power wire. I will check the building tonight but feel much better about this.

Thanks cookie and danemeyer!

 

[danemayer]

If white is neutral...it will carry voltage and that is why I got a bite this morning.

With power to the water heater OFF, there is no way that you should have gotten a shock. Something else is wrong and it doesn't sound as if you understand electrical wiring well enough to continue working on it without putting yourself into danger.

I'd recommend you call a certified electrician.

 

[RuralPastor]

With power to the water heater OFF, there is no way that you should have gotten a shock. Something else is wrong and it doesn't sound as if you understand electrical wiring well enough to continue working on it without putting yourself into danger.

I'd recommend you call a certified electrician.

Actually, you're wrong. You CAN get shocked from a common neutral (grounded conductor...not grounding conductor) when your body becomes a pathway to ground. With that said, I agree. Get a qualified electrician to verify that the main panel is correctly bonded to a grounding source. The neutral will take the easiest path to ground--either the bond, or your body.

 

[JohnDar]

A non-contact current detector might alert you to a hazard before you touch it. For the record, while at the Goshen South camp area, I got a tone from my detector off my rig, as well as the one next to me. Here at our CG, no tone from my rig.

 

[Tweitekamp]

If there is something else on the same circuit as the hot water heating element could I have picked up voltage off the white wire? If heartland is piggy backing neutral with something else that is the only other way I can see getting juice on that wire.

I will admit I am confused but heartland wired it up!!! If something is wrong I would have to say that everybody needs to check their rigs out.

IF there is a wiring issue with my building (which I highly doubt since I hired professionals) how am I picking up voltage on a neutral wire. How do I check with my voltmeter both on my 30A plug ad my I have used the old element several outings successfully until one of the more recent trips. Doubt anything could have happened at the pole that would cause this!

Still open to suggestions

 

[Rickhansen]

I think the wiring in the shed is good. Brand new.

I am ashamed because I giggled a little when I read your original post. Sorry, been there and done that too.

Of course, because of the fact that you were posting this, I knew that your situation had NOT turned out badly. I agree that "new" or "just rewired" is a RED FLAG, rather than tried, proven or known good. Professional only means that they get paid to do things, whereas amateurs do it just for fun. I work in and around the trades, and you would not believe how many folks can pass the tests, serve the apprenticeships, and get licensed and not fully know (or care) about what they are doing.

I agree with Dan and the others, invest in a non-contact voltage tester, and perhaps even a good multimeter. I wouldn't be too concerned with turning power back on for troubleshooting, or with the heating element replacement. You seriously do need to (safely) find the source of the hot skin, neutral, or chassis as it can be deadly in the right conditions.

Please keep us updated as you have questions or find problems, and please be safe.

 

[ParkIt]

If there is something else on the same circuit as the hot water heating element could I have picked up voltage off the white wire? If heartland is piggy backing neutral with something else that is the only other way I can see getting juice on that wire.

I will admit I am confused but heartland wired it up!!! If something is wrong I would have to say that everybody needs to check their rigs out.

It's hard to tell but did you buy this as a used unit? If so you may want to disconnect ALL power sources (even the battery) and trace down the wiring to make sure something wasn't spliced in or is damaged by rodents somewhere along the line. It could be what is causing the ground short.

IF there is a wiring issue with my building (which I highly doubt since I hired professionals) how am I picking up voltage on a neutral wire. How do I check with my voltmeter both on my 30A plug ad my I have used the old element several outings successfully until one of the more recent trips. Doubt anything could have happened at the pole that would cause this!

Still open to suggestions

Unfortunately the water element can be left on with no water or low water in the tank, it burns out rather quickly when that happens and needs to be replaced. There is no warning like you would get from a stick built house.
Another thing to consider is if you have a surge protector. Many campgrounds don't have consistent power to the pole and a spike can short out components and wiring in and to our rigs and chasing that down is not fun but it can be done with time and patience checking all the wiring, inverters, converters and protectors.

 

[wdk450]

One thing to remember about RV AC wiring is that to be compliant with national codes the neutral (white wire) is NOT to be bonded to ground within the RV. There should only be 1 neutral-ground bonding point - at the shore power main electrical feed service panel . If you understand this stuff, check your RV outlet with a multimeter for correct voltages/grounding. Then proceed with what Danemeyer recommended.

 

[marvmarcy]

In my experience, the most common source of voltage on a neutral wire or overvoltage on a circuit is a bad neutral-to-ground bond. As already stated, rvs should not have internal bonding but rely on properly bonded shore power. If both the power pedestal and the rv were bonded, and the shore power had a bad bond, there could be voltage on the chassis that could shock anyone contacting the rv. Grounding at two separate points also can produce ground loop voltage. The electricians among you may think I'm oversimplifying, but I hope most of you will understand the basics.

i've put my Fluke dvom on many rv power pedestals and found poor neutral-ground bonds, usually with improper voltage at the receptacle.

 

[mobilcastle]

What is the voltage reading on the white wire?

 

[Tweitekamp]

Ok so we found out what the problem is........dumb electrician wired up my camper outlet 220 not 120v. We immediately plugged into 120v and everything started working normally. I apologize for doubting some of your guys suggestions about the shed being wired wrong!!! I guess I should have done that wiring with my brother in law who found the problem right away.

So what could be messed up in the camper now?? Converter??? Wiring issues??? Suggestions?

todd

 

[danemayer]

Ok so we found out what the problem is........dumb electrician wired up my camper outlet 220 not 120v. We immediately plugged into 120v and everything started working normally. I apologize for doubting some of your guys suggestions about the shed being wired wrong!!! I guess I should have done that wiring with my brother in law who found the problem right away.

So what could be messed up in the camper now?? Converter??? Wiring issues??? Suggestions?

todd

Todd, sorry to say that some people have fried just about every 110V appliance in their RVs when hooking up to 220V. Definitely check the power converter operation. If you have generator prep, check out the transfer switch. And of course check the refrigerator, icemaker, TVs, microwave/convection oven and fireplace if you have one.

 

[TravelTiger]

The thing that may have been affected first are:

The converter, since its job is to turn AC to DC, it may have blown an internal fuse. This is probably not covered by warranty... But maybe simpler than a complete replacement... Contact the manufacturer, I bet this happens often.

Microwave, since the clock is always on when you're plugged into shore power.

DC items like your stereo and propane detector, water heater since you may have turned it on

Fridge, if it was on

AC possibly? If turned on and run for a while

TV if it has a "standby" light or something drawing current when not "on".

In our case, once brought to the professional electrician's knowledge, he offered to pay for repairs to the coach.

We were lucky and lost only the micro and converter, fridge had other issues so was replaced under warranty.


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[Rickhansen]

Depending on exactly how it was miswired, you may find absolutely nothing is wrong in the RV. Measuring 220V between line1 and line2 is OK, as long as your Neutral was wired correctly to the Neutral bus of your breaker panel. Line1 and Line2 are not mixed in your RV wiring. Measuring 220V on Line1 or Line2 to Neutral would be a very bad thing.

If you find any problems, I'd sure be sending the bills to your "professional" electrician, depending on what exactly you paid him to install.

 

[Tweitekamp]

Miraculously everything SEEMS to be working. I have not tested the converter but can do that later. The microwave display turns on it worked last outing. Camper has been plugged in for 2 months or so and it hasn't burned to the ground yet. But the radio works, microwave works, fridge seems to work properly both on propane and electricity. Haven't had dead battery yet and it would have showed up last weekend since we were camping for 3 days and we used the lights a lot. I guess I am going to consider myself lucky as heck!

I am trying to follow what rickhansens is saying but I know that the neutral wire is connected to the breaker (on the shed) NOT the neutral bar. Once I get the breakers needed repair the panel properly, we are going to install everything correctly along with checking the plug on the wall to make sure it is wired up correctly.

Just wanted to say thank you for all your help!!!!!!!!!!!

Todd