westxsrt10
Perfict Senior Member
The main Hard Start issues discussed are focused on " starting AC with a generator".
A generator question
- Thread starter Bobby A
- Start date
The main Hard Start issues discussed are focused on " starting AC with a generator".
danemayer
Well-known member
You know, by the time you become eligible for Social Security, you've picked up quite a bit of trivia on many different subjects. I might remember 15% of all the trivia I ever knew. It's a complete mystery to me where I might have picked up any particular item now that I can barely remember them at all...
But in this case, I probably first heard it the summer I turned 16, working as an assistant to an A/C tech. Again, I don't know for sure it's true, but I'd check it out before trying to solve a genny load issue this way.
porthole
Retired
Yeah, and...............
evolvingpowercat
Well-known member
I have continued to research today and I have decided that going from the default Dometic pctr and starting capacitor in series to the Supco E class integrated Starting Capacitor with Electronic version of the PCTR function is a definite upgrade from OEM and I am doing it in the near future. It should make my experience with my Yamaha 2400iSHC generator go better and also my experience in those occasional campground spaces with lots of voltage drop when putting AC starting load on their 30 Amp outlet go better. The E class seems to be designed to avoid all the bad things that the basic hard start upgrade kits could cause.
Got my supco spp6 today and will install over next day or so, however all the ad's I saw with this indicated they had a blue and red wire so just disconnect the oem capacitor which also has red and blue wires and that should do it. The unit I received has 2 black wires. I guess it makes no difference which wire goes where? Anyone know before I hookup incorrectly?
evolvingpowercat
Well-known member
SUPCO does not support removing the OEM start capacitor and PTCR! They also indicate that the SPP6 is appropriate for RV AC hard start upgrade, that the SPP6E is not needed (but will also work).
SUPCO confirmed that their hard start capacitor should be added in parallel to the existing start capacitor + PTSC.
Here is thread detailing the upgrade:
http://www.modmyrv.com/2009/05/27/rv-air-conditioner-hard-start-capacitor
SUPCO confirmed that their hard start capacitor should be added in parallel to the existing start capacitor + PTSC.
Here is thread detailing the upgrade:
http://www.modmyrv.com/2009/05/27/rv-air-conditioner-hard-start-capacitor
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Sumo
Well-known member
Has anybody tried the Dometic "Smartstart" on their A/C?????
I"m looking at putting a 15,000 A/C on my North Trail 5th Wheel. The 13,500 is not able to cool the RV.
I have a 3000 Sei Yamaha gen which will start and run my 13,500. But is to small to start a 15,000.
I don't think the Supco will make up the difference.
I"m looking at putting a 15,000 A/C on my North Trail 5th Wheel. The 13,500 is not able to cool the RV.
I have a 3000 Sei Yamaha gen which will start and run my 13,500. But is to small to start a 15,000.
I don't think the Supco will make up the difference.
The white and red wires are connected to the terminals on the main silver can capacitor and the PT6E black wires go where the red and white wires came off.
//heartlandowners.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=20704&d=1344463578&thumb=1
powercat , my spp6 has 2 black wires, does it make any difference which terminals I hook them to? My start capacitor is smaller than the one in your pic and has a blue and red wire running to the run capacitor.
Thanks for your help.
//heartlandowners.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=20704&d=1344463578&thumb=1
powercat , my spp6 has 2 black wires, does it make any difference which terminals I hook them to? My start capacitor is smaller than the one in your pic and has a blue and red wire running to the run capacitor.
Thanks for your help.
evolvingpowercat
Well-known member
I am not sure you have the same type of AC compressor in your unit as was in my newer 2011 Edge which I believe was a 2010 manufacturing vintage Dometic 13,500 BTU AC, sorry I have to advise you not do anything based on my say-so since our ACs don't seem to match. Make sure of what you are working with before making any changes. You have do this right or you may be replacing your AC compressor or the entire unit. Sometimes there is a wiring diagram sticker under your AC cover or get a wiring diagram online by model # lookup before changing anything, to make sure you are doing the right thing.
There are several designs for AC compressors here is some more info: http://www.supco.com/images/pdfs/AC Hardstarts Booklet.pdf
There are several designs for AC compressors here is some more info: http://www.supco.com/images/pdfs/AC Hardstarts Booklet.pdf
I do have the electrical drawing and it shows the start cap. hooked into the run cap. with just two wires that are simply clipped in place. It appears all that needs be done is unclip wires remove old cap. attach new one to the same clips on the running cap. that the oem was attached. Am I right?
PS- I called Supco Tech help today and they said to piggyback the supco unit to the oem capacitor, ie, don't remove the original capacitor. It makes no difference which terminal the black wires on the supco are clipped.
My unit is a Carrier Air5 . Hope this helps someone.
PS- I called Supco Tech help today and they said to piggyback the supco unit to the oem capacitor, ie, don't remove the original capacitor. It makes no difference which terminal the black wires on the supco are clipped.
My unit is a Carrier Air5 . Hope this helps someone.
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evolvingpowercat
Well-known member
> I do have the electrical drawing and it shows the start cap. hooked into the run cap. with just two wires that are simply clipped in place.
> It appears all that needs be done is unclip wires remove old cap. attach new one to the same clips on the running cap. that the oem was
> attached. Am I right?
> PS- I called Supco Tech help today and they said to piggyback the supco unit to the oem capacitor, ie, don't remove the original capacitor.
> It makes no difference which terminal the black wires on the supco are clipped.
> My unit is a Carrier Air5 . Hope this helps someone.
If one does not have any AC starting problem when using "normal" AC power, and all one is trying to do is reduce startup load for use on 120 Volt 15 Amp shore power or when on generator power, then here is my two cents for a 13,500 BTU AC:
1. If you are going to leave the original PTCR and Starting Cap in place and they are good, then I would use a SPP6, this is what SUPCO technical support recommends. it wires in parallel with the current Start Cap + PTCR on the same run cap terminals. SUPCO says the SPP6 will work, that the SPP6E will also work but its extra features are not needed.
2. SUPCO does not recommend taking out the original starting capacitor components! I had personally done this on my Dometic 13,500 2010 manufacturing vintage AC unit, removing them and replacing them with the SPP6E. Amazingly, it actually will start and run reliably now even with the Edge M21 plugged into a 120 volt 15 amp breaker fed outlet and 100 foot 14 gauge extension cord. FYI, once running it draws 13.5 amps, 1400 watts from the 120 volt outlet.
> It appears all that needs be done is unclip wires remove old cap. attach new one to the same clips on the running cap. that the oem was
> attached. Am I right?
> PS- I called Supco Tech help today and they said to piggyback the supco unit to the oem capacitor, ie, don't remove the original capacitor.
> It makes no difference which terminal the black wires on the supco are clipped.
> My unit is a Carrier Air5 . Hope this helps someone.
If one does not have any AC starting problem when using "normal" AC power, and all one is trying to do is reduce startup load for use on 120 Volt 15 Amp shore power or when on generator power, then here is my two cents for a 13,500 BTU AC:
1. If you are going to leave the original PTCR and Starting Cap in place and they are good, then I would use a SPP6, this is what SUPCO technical support recommends. it wires in parallel with the current Start Cap + PTCR on the same run cap terminals. SUPCO says the SPP6 will work, that the SPP6E will also work but its extra features are not needed.
2. SUPCO does not recommend taking out the original starting capacitor components! I had personally done this on my Dometic 13,500 2010 manufacturing vintage AC unit, removing them and replacing them with the SPP6E. Amazingly, it actually will start and run reliably now even with the Edge M21 plugged into a 120 volt 15 amp breaker fed outlet and 100 foot 14 gauge extension cord. FYI, once running it draws 13.5 amps, 1400 watts from the 120 volt outlet.
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Randy, thanks for your input. When we get a cooler day I'll get up on the roof and get this thing installed. I think I'll take your advice and remove the oem cap. , and just use the spp6 , I did not see the PTCR you describe when I removed the cover but I'll look again . I don't want to go buy another capacitor, too cheap. Hopefully this will allow me to run the a/c with my generator if/when we have another extended power failure during warm weather. I don't dry camp so that would be the only reason for doing so.
evolvingpowercat
Well-known member
In my photo earlier in the thread, the little black thing is the PTCR and it was mounted inside the electrical box snapped into a little metal clip. As I said, this is all of a newer 2010-2011 vintage Dometic 13,5000 AC. It was series wired with the basic start capacitor (big black thing). If you don't have a PTCR in series it could be that Carrier used a start can that has the capacitor and PTCR mounted together inside, if both wires on the current start can in your AC go directly to two of the terminals on the run capacitor .
evolvingpowercat
Well-known member
FYI - I contacted Supco Technical Support today and they totally dis-agree with my removing the OEM Start Capacitor and PTSC and told me "put them back". They are insistent that their hard start capacitors be added in parallel and not to remove the OEM stuff.
They also told me they recommend the SPP6 but that the SPP6E would also work. However, they also told me that even with their hard start add-on it would require at least a 3000 Watt Generator or 3500 Watt 12 Volt Inverter.
So, I have followed their advice and have put back the OEM stuff in parallel with the SPP6E. The results of it easily starting working on my 15A 115V circuit thru a 100 foot 14 gauge extension are still true. This time it drew less than 1200 watts after it started but its cooler outside then it was when I did my earlier test.
Guess the real test will come in Colorado at 8000 feet next month when I can see if the Yamaha 2400iSHC with less power at altitude can still start it, without messing with the carb.
P.S. I am editing my earlier posts as I don't want to post advice that directly contradicts the vendor SUPCO's advice.
They also told me they recommend the SPP6 but that the SPP6E would also work. However, they also told me that even with their hard start add-on it would require at least a 3000 Watt Generator or 3500 Watt 12 Volt Inverter.
So, I have followed their advice and have put back the OEM stuff in parallel with the SPP6E. The results of it easily starting working on my 15A 115V circuit thru a 100 foot 14 gauge extension are still true. This time it drew less than 1200 watts after it started but its cooler outside then it was when I did my earlier test.
Guess the real test will come in Colorado at 8000 feet next month when I can see if the Yamaha 2400iSHC with less power at altitude can still start it, without messing with the carb.
P.S. I am editing my earlier posts as I don't want to post advice that directly contradicts the vendor SUPCO's advice.
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evolvingpowercat
Well-known member
> 14 gauge 100 foot extension cord seems weak
IT IS ! This was just a "for fun" experiment to see if the hard start capacitor mod would let it start on a 15 amp house breaker, and I had the 14 gauge extension cord handy on a reel in my garage for use with my Mantis electric tiller, etc. Not a recommended configuration at all. Also I have a Kill-a-watt power use monitor that only works with regular 15 Amp plugs and I wanted to measure draw for the Edge's AC and for the Edge's 55 Amp converter so I had changed over from my nomal 30 Amp service to the 30 to 15 Amp adapter plugged into the garage outlet. I honestly expected the AC compressor to trip the breaker and never start. But it did.
IT IS ! This was just a "for fun" experiment to see if the hard start capacitor mod would let it start on a 15 amp house breaker, and I had the 14 gauge extension cord handy on a reel in my garage for use with my Mantis electric tiller, etc. Not a recommended configuration at all. Also I have a Kill-a-watt power use monitor that only works with regular 15 Amp plugs and I wanted to measure draw for the Edge's AC and for the Edge's 55 Amp converter so I had changed over from my nomal 30 Amp service to the 30 to 15 Amp adapter plugged into the garage outlet. I honestly expected the AC compressor to trip the breaker and never start. But it did.
evolvingpowercat
Well-known member
It looks like back up on the roof of the Edge M21 one more time to remove the SPP6E ...
Jim from SUPCO technical support in response to my question: Is SPP6E OK or do I need SPP6 ?
Randy,
The SPP6E is designed for 208/240 volt systems it will not drop out in the voltage ranges used on a 120 volt system.
The other problem is that time to full power is not sufficient for the generator to respond.
The SPP6 uses PTC technology that uses current draw to switch the start relay. This gives the generator a longer ramp up time.
The SPP6 can respond to the 120 volt circuit.
Do not use the SPP6E on 120 volt circuits it will brown out below the 90 volt minimum.
Thanks,
Jim
Jim from SUPCO technical support in response to my question: Is SPP6E OK or do I need SPP6 ?
Randy,
The SPP6E is designed for 208/240 volt systems it will not drop out in the voltage ranges used on a 120 volt system.
The other problem is that time to full power is not sufficient for the generator to respond.
The SPP6 uses PTC technology that uses current draw to switch the start relay. This gives the generator a longer ramp up time.
The SPP6 can respond to the 120 volt circuit.
Do not use the SPP6E on 120 volt circuits it will brown out below the 90 volt minimum.
Thanks,
Jim
Looks like I bought the right one just out of dumb luck. I did try to hookup today but could only attach the wire with the piggyback terminal, I have no other male terminal on the run capacitor to hookup to without using a piggyback terminal. Went to 2 hardware stores and 3 electric wholesalers and nobody had them. Had to order on the internet. Why Supco isn't putting 2 piggyback terminals on these things is beyond me.
Also the Supco capacitor won't fit into the box that holds the capacitors so I'll have to attach it to the outside of the box, the A/C cover will still protect it from the weather. A simple project turning into a more major one.
Also the Supco capacitor won't fit into the box that holds the capacitors so I'll have to attach it to the outside of the box, the A/C cover will still protect it from the weather. A simple project turning into a more major one.
westxsrt10
Perfict Senior Member
Keep us posted....I have a SPP6 and it didn't help.
The SPP6E worked, I have a spare SPP6 to give away!
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