Dr.Lightning
Member
My Travel Trailer is stored in my driveway, in the foothills north of Atlanta. Right now, my fresh tank, water heater, cabin floor and cabinet tubing, toilet and faucets are substantially filled with Antifreeze. That should be fine for 25degF weather we're having at night now.
HOWEVER, a 12degF night is coming next week (thanks, Santa!), amidst 4 days never above 32degF. I'm concerned. Here's why:
FIRST, I think a little antifreeze and a lot of air might be BETTER than simply full of antifreeze. I've never heard of air freezing and expanding to break things in the natural surface-of-the-earth world.
SECOND, I realize 12degF is not 0degF or -4degF or -50degF.
I put some antifreeze in a plastic bottle (a rinsed rubbing alcohol bottle; I couldn't find a little water bottle in the house). I put this bottle in our -4degF freezer, reading 0degF this morning. This morning, the bottom has slush in it, so the antifreeze that claims to be good to -50degF hasn't frozen solid. However, I believe the bottle *IS* slightly expanded. This slight expansion concerns me. I'm less concerned about the cabin floor and cabinet tubing, especially if I leave all the faucet valves open. Any expansion of the slush should press out the faucet values and faucet. I'm highly concerned about the three ball valves for draining the hot & cold cabin tubing plus the fresh tank. I'm also highly concerned about the toilet valve as well as any valves inside my great self-remodeled Brondell S1000 toilet seat bidet.
Specifically, the ball valves totally trap some antifreeze inside. Even if not frozen, I'm concerned that the expansion of the slush in the confined space might crack the ball valves. I don't have a MEASURE for the expansion, and I don't have experience with it in this situation. I'm also worried about the Dometic RV toilet flush valve, that might also trap fluid inside it when shut. And I'm concerned about the aqua-mechanics inside the bidet which might also have confined fluid when not operating.
Therefore, I'm thinking I should now go drain it all back out. Any antifreeze left at unintentional low points in the pipes will have plenty of air in the pipes for expansion. The open faucets won't have any antifreeze near them because it will have flowed away downhill. The drain valves will be left open and not have any confined antifreeze. I *should* be able to flush the toilet get that flush valve substantially empty. Residual antifreeze left in the fresh tank should have plenty of expansion room. So should antifreeze in the traps. The little bit of antifreeze in the gray and black tanks from filling toilet and traps should have plenty of expansion room.
All that leaves, I think, are the toilet check valve and the unknown tiny internals of the bidet. I should receive a blow-out plug Tuesday, before the very hard freeze. I figure I can blow the antifreeze out to make my unintentional pipe low points even more empty. And if I set my compressor pressure below 40psi to be safe when things are all closed, I ought to be able to flush the toilet and operate the bidet in order to flush air through and at least get some of the antifreeze out. That will leave air room in everything regarding this whole fear of expanding antifreeze. (Yes, I realize not expanding is the whole point of antifreeze, but where was it made? what shortcuts were taken? is it really just about not becoming solid and having room to expand elsewhere. BTW, I have a lose valve in my freezer testing as well, with antifreeze trapped inside it. It has NOT shown any cracks that I can see. But it's a higher quality metal valve than the metal valve on my TT.) I will have to be careful about the bidet's internal water heater. I'll need to set it as cold as possible and only operate for a second or two. Wouldn't want the heater element to injure itself trying to heat air that isn't communicating the heat well to a nearby temperature sensor. Unlikely but possible.
Finally, I have three low point valves, for cabin hot, cabin cold, and fresh water tank. I'll drain ALL this stuff out, right back into the gallon jugs for use next time.
Thoughts?
HOWEVER, a 12degF night is coming next week (thanks, Santa!), amidst 4 days never above 32degF. I'm concerned. Here's why:
FIRST, I think a little antifreeze and a lot of air might be BETTER than simply full of antifreeze. I've never heard of air freezing and expanding to break things in the natural surface-of-the-earth world.
SECOND, I realize 12degF is not 0degF or -4degF or -50degF.
I put some antifreeze in a plastic bottle (a rinsed rubbing alcohol bottle; I couldn't find a little water bottle in the house). I put this bottle in our -4degF freezer, reading 0degF this morning. This morning, the bottom has slush in it, so the antifreeze that claims to be good to -50degF hasn't frozen solid. However, I believe the bottle *IS* slightly expanded. This slight expansion concerns me. I'm less concerned about the cabin floor and cabinet tubing, especially if I leave all the faucet valves open. Any expansion of the slush should press out the faucet values and faucet. I'm highly concerned about the three ball valves for draining the hot & cold cabin tubing plus the fresh tank. I'm also highly concerned about the toilet valve as well as any valves inside my great self-remodeled Brondell S1000 toilet seat bidet.
Specifically, the ball valves totally trap some antifreeze inside. Even if not frozen, I'm concerned that the expansion of the slush in the confined space might crack the ball valves. I don't have a MEASURE for the expansion, and I don't have experience with it in this situation. I'm also worried about the Dometic RV toilet flush valve, that might also trap fluid inside it when shut. And I'm concerned about the aqua-mechanics inside the bidet which might also have confined fluid when not operating.
Therefore, I'm thinking I should now go drain it all back out. Any antifreeze left at unintentional low points in the pipes will have plenty of air in the pipes for expansion. The open faucets won't have any antifreeze near them because it will have flowed away downhill. The drain valves will be left open and not have any confined antifreeze. I *should* be able to flush the toilet get that flush valve substantially empty. Residual antifreeze left in the fresh tank should have plenty of expansion room. So should antifreeze in the traps. The little bit of antifreeze in the gray and black tanks from filling toilet and traps should have plenty of expansion room.
All that leaves, I think, are the toilet check valve and the unknown tiny internals of the bidet. I should receive a blow-out plug Tuesday, before the very hard freeze. I figure I can blow the antifreeze out to make my unintentional pipe low points even more empty. And if I set my compressor pressure below 40psi to be safe when things are all closed, I ought to be able to flush the toilet and operate the bidet in order to flush air through and at least get some of the antifreeze out. That will leave air room in everything regarding this whole fear of expanding antifreeze. (Yes, I realize not expanding is the whole point of antifreeze, but where was it made? what shortcuts were taken? is it really just about not becoming solid and having room to expand elsewhere. BTW, I have a lose valve in my freezer testing as well, with antifreeze trapped inside it. It has NOT shown any cracks that I can see. But it's a higher quality metal valve than the metal valve on my TT.) I will have to be careful about the bidet's internal water heater. I'll need to set it as cold as possible and only operate for a second or two. Wouldn't want the heater element to injure itself trying to heat air that isn't communicating the heat well to a nearby temperature sensor. Unlikely but possible.
Finally, I have three low point valves, for cabin hot, cabin cold, and fresh water tank. I'll drain ALL this stuff out, right back into the gallon jugs for use next time.
Thoughts?
