Auto Transfer Switch Question

[porthole]

So, with that inverter wired in, and the fridge, mini fridge and another outlet or so wired to the inverter, there should be nothing I have to do, no cutting something on and something off, right?

With any 'quality', sized properly, transfer switch inverter, sounds like you are on the right track there.

With my setup, I never even bother turning it off.
My remote panel is inside my gen compartment, just never got around to mounting it inside.

If I am on the road long enough, there are times the inverter may be running out of juice. But part of that problem is the Ford not outputting enough current at the bumper and a 1 volt loss between the bumper and the 12 volt in the trailer at the bus bar.

 

[porthole]

Interesting to read:

http://www.doityourselfrv.com/rv-inverter-install-diy/

I started reading that page and there are errors. For starters the chart they list uses non standard battery cable sizing.

8 6 4 2 1 1/0 2/0 3/0 4/0 is the standard.

And, the chart does not mention how the voltage drop is measured.
When calculating voltage drop on DC circuits you have to include both the positive and negative wires, the sum of the two is your run length.



http://www.wiringproducts.com/battery-cable

 

[carl.swoyer]

Ronn - penny wise and pound foolish ....... you get what you pay for when you start talking inverters. Plenty of people buy the HF stuff and make it work. Until it doesn't. When you look at all the variations of inverters out there, there is a reason why the Magnums cost what they do and many other similar brands are 1/3 to 1/4 the cost.

You have to look at the specs as well. The best inverters run about 90-92% efficient. So you get a 1000 watt inverter and before you plug anything in you are at 900 watts - before it starts to warm up, providing you supplied the inverter with properly sized battery cables. A non pure sine wave, inexpensive inverter may only be 70% efficient.

An inexpensive inverter claiming 90% efficiency is BS.

Pure sine waiver inverters will cost more because of the cleaner output they provide. And they tend to be of higher quality. There are more pieces to the puzzle.

I don't have my Cyclone transfer switch manual handy and do not recall if it is a standard type of relay or a latching relay. Standard relays need power to make the connection the opposite of their resting state. Latching relays use power to activate then stay that way until power is applied again.

If you are trying to use the trailer transfer switch, will your inverter even output enough without a load to make the transfer? For example, I have a 2500 watt Heart Interface inverter (very good marine inverter). At idle I cannot use a corded drill, it will not start. If I add a 40 watt bulb to the circuit I can run my drill.

How much do you really want to power?

You need to know this before you buy an inverter. If you want to run the fridge and maybe a couple of circuits I would not look at anything less then 2000 watts. With a built in transfer switch, and remote panel capable. The inverter is going to be buried somewhere, Ideally within 3' or so of the batteries, so you want a remote switch and or display.

I do not have a residential fridge yet, but I would guess my loads would be similar to what you are trying to achieve.

I had a 1800 watt xantrex inverter with a built in transfer switch. Was never satisfied with it. For one thing, the voltage sensor always read about .6 to .7 volts lower then actual. This caused the inverter to kick out prematurely due to the low voltage cutout feature (non adjustable, higher end inverters this is adjustable).

I am now using a Kaise 3000 watt pure sine wave, built in transfer switch inverter. They are not Magnum quality, but are a really good alternative.
Connected to the inverter my circuits include; living room - 32" flat screen, DirecTV DVR, DirecTV power inserter, BR player, bedroom - 30" flat screen, BR player, DirecTV genie.
In the garage I have a circuit to run my ice maker and Dometic electric cooler - freezer.

My AV electronics are always connected to the inverter. That eliminate spikes, surges and they always have clean power. My ice maker is usually on from the time we leave home until we return.

Don't cheat yourself now on the install. If you want a successful project you need to start with a decent inverter, proper batteries (plural), the correct size wire and proper quality components.

If your installer is waiting for you to tell him how to do it, maybe he ins't your guy.

Good points on everything! Especially the installer.

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[markwilson]

Residential was not offered when we got our Rig (purchased in Jul 2013) so... Really wish it was. And, about a month after we took delivery, they came up with the upgraded axle and disc brake option. Oh well. We also have the gen prep and I had the same progressive industries system installed that you have as well. We don't own a generator of any kind because we very rarely boondock and when we do, it is only for one night so I'm hoping that 3 Group 31 AGM batteries will be able to keep the fridge going until we start driving the next day.

If I'm understanding your comments, you took out the installed auto transfer switch. Is that correct? So your fridge is the only thing wired to your inverter. So do you need to turn anything on or off or does the Magnum have auto transfer.

If I do go with the Magnum it will be the 2000watt one at a minimum because I know I will have 2 fridges running so better safe than sorry.

Speaking from our own experience, Ronn, we've been pleased with the standard 1,000 watt inverter that came from the factory powering our residential fridge and nothing else. If you only boondock "one night" at a time I suppose the question becomes, if going with the three AGM batteries, will they keep the 110v stuff going for you for one night (keeping in mind that battery longevity requires you deplete them only 50% or so during that one night), and will the tow vehicle's alternator be able to charge them back up the next day during x number of hours of travel before another possible night using them again without the benefit of shore power to fully charge them in between if the tow vehicle doesn't get it done. To monitor the batteries, I purchased off ebay a "DC 120V 500A Volt Amp Combo Meter Battery Charge Discharge Indicator Camper CAR."

Yes, I did remove the Surge Guard transfer switch since the rig will never have an Onan generator in the front bay. No switching going on without the Onan installed. And yes, our fridge is the only thing plugged into the inverter. I just haven't had any need to run anything else off the inverter, and don't foresee having any need to do so. Our Kodiak lithium-ion battery is portable so we move it where it's needed to charge toys, run the TV, blender, etc.

We're all limited in our off grid adventures I suppose. What gives out first? Water, battery, or the ability to store poop? We've gone a max of 7 days off grid so far, and with earnest water conservation I believe 10 days is doable before needing another umbilical cord to replenish water/dump black tank. So long as gas is available, electricity isn't a factor with our solar panels and Yamaha generator, using only two 6 volt lead-acid batteries (though I probably should have a total of 4; or better yet, lithium-ion, though still very expensive).

We like having the ability to be off grid several days at a time, though, so our requirements differ from yours.

 

[carl.swoyer]

Porthole, thanks as always for your detailed guidance. I don't mind spending the money if that is what needs to be done. As for my installer, he is not asking, I was more in the mode of I want done what I want done. He has done many of these and I've talked to folks he has done the work for and they are all very happy, so I believe I'm ok there. I am looking at a 2k or a 3k (better over kill then no enough) inverter. As for batteries, I just purchased 3 Group 31 AGM 12 volts. Each rated at 105 amp hours so I should be ok there as well. I know 6 volt would be better, but... And I know that the only way to go is pure sine wave, no question there at all. (at least I'm sure of one thing)

As for the wire, what I've read is somewhere between 0 and 2. As for location, my inverter will be about 1 foot from my batteries so I should be ok there as well (hey, what do ya' know, I'm good on 2 things).

If I am reading your set up right, you've run just about every circuit that runs anything electronic direct to your inverter so it will provide protections, etc. I already have the Progressive Industries in-line 50 amp system so that should help for spikes, etc., as well.

I tried looking up the inverter you have and can't find it. Can you provide a link.

Again, thanks so much. I really do appreciate it. (if electronics was only as easy as woodworking for me this would be a breeze!)

- - - Updated - - -



Residential was not offered when we got our Rig (purchased in Jul 2013) so... Really wish it was. And, about a month after we took delivery, they came up with the upgraded axle and disc brake option. Oh well. We also have the gen prep and I had the same progressive industries system installed that you have as well. We don't own a generator of any kind because we very rarely boondock and when we do, it is only for one night so I'm hoping that 3 Group 31 AGM batteries will be able to keep the fridge going until we start driving the next day.

If I'm understanding your comments, you took out the installed auto transfer switch. Is that correct? So your fridge is the only thing wired to your inverter. So do you need to turn anything on or off or does the Magnum have auto transfer.

If I do go with the Magnum it will be the 2000watt one at a minimum because I know I will have 2 fridges running so better safe than sorry.

Keep in mind the output capabilities of the Magnum's. My Ms 2818 is 30 amp ÷ by two outputs.
My previous fifth wheel was not wired as my Landmark.
So there were times I forget to flip switches an ended up running batteries down.
Wiring is Paramount. Size of the inverter is something I would suggest you don't short on.
I now have one battery bank.
I removed the factory battery box and made a box to hold four group 31 AGM batteries and my Magnum Inverter is sitting on top. Now I have one extremely efficient battery bank and inverter Charger.
With the Magnum Inverter set at 90% Charging rate I can bring the charge from 11.8/9 volts to 12.5/6 in about 25min running the Onan genset 5500 lp Marquis. I don't know what took me so long to do the inverter system this way ...... But it is extremely efficient.

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[Greengas]

Keep in mind the output capabilities of the Magnum's. My Ms 2818 is 30 amp ÷ by two outputs.
My previous fifth wheel was not wired as my Landmark.
So there were times I forget to flip switches an ended up running batteries down.
Wiring is Paramount. Size of the inverter is something I would suggest you don't short on.
I now have one battery bank.
I removed the factory battery box and made a box to hold four group 31 AGM batteries and my Magnum Inverter is sitting on top. Now I have one extremely efficient battery bank and inverter Charger.
With the Magnum Inverter set at 90% Charging rate I can bring the charge from 11.8/9 volts to 12.5/6 in about 25min running the Onan genset 5500 lp Marquis. I don't know what took me so long to do the inverter system this way ...... But it is extremely efficient.

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So, if I understand correctly, your Magnum inverter is also a charger.

 

[carl.swoyer]

So, if I understand correctly, your Magnum inverter is also a charger.

Yes it is,and with the Magnum remote you can tell the Magnum how you want it to perform. Programing is a huge feature on my system. I can tell it I'm on 20 30 or 50 amp shore power. This feature is great. I had Glenn at Magnum customer service help me with the original program. My charger is a 125 amp Charger with bulk and float Charging built in.

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[Greengas]

With any 'quality', sized properly, transfer switch inverter, sounds like you are on the right track there.

With my setup, I never even bother turning it off.
My remote panel is inside my gen compartment, just never got around to mounting it inside.

If I am on the road long enough, there are times the inverter may be running out of juice. But part of that problem is the Ford not outputting enough current at the bumper and a 1 volt loss between the bumper and the 12 volt in the trailer at the bus bar.

Found this on Amazon. Looks like yours, just its a 2000w version. Don't really think I need 3k.


Now, I was wondering if the AIMS display would work with it? It seems that the only on/off switch by KIASE is just a simple on/off.

So, if I get this inverter and get it wired up for my big fridge, my mini fridge and the outlet in the bedroom I should be good to go! As for automated, that's why this inverter has an auto transfer switch.

Thoughts? Am I on track now.

Everyone has been so helpful. Today has been a very big learning experience. It always amazes me at how much people know about electrical things. Just wish I felt more comfortable doing some of it myself. But... not yet. Maybe when we start traveling and I have the time to work on it!

 

[porthole]

Found this on Amazon. Looks like yours, just its a 2000w version. Don't really think I need 3k.


Now, I was wondering if the AIMS display would work with it? It seems that the only on/off switch by KIASE is just a simple on/off.

So, if I get this inverter and get it wired up for my big fridge, my mini fridge and the outlet in the bedroom I should be good to go! As for automated, that's why this inverter has an auto transfer switch.

Thoughts? Am I on track now.

Everyone has been so helpful. Today has been a very big learning experience. It always amazes me at how much people know about electrical things. Just wish I felt more comfortable doing some of it myself. But... not yet. Maybe when we start traveling and I have the time to work on it!

The Kiase inverters. I really do not know much about them. But they have been carried by West Marine for several years now. WM is the largest marine supply in the country and for the most part all of their stock is quality product.
I have never heard anything negative with the Kiase - I would not buy anymore xantrex product.

Don Rowe carries Kiase on his website. He does not sell junk.

THe AIMS display I'm sure only works with AIMS inverters.

The Kiase inverter has a remote panel, the panel you see on the inverter pictures is removable and attached with a telephone or data cable.

The panel has different readouts that you can cycle through. And all of the inverter features are set with that panel.

Here is the manual for the product line.

http://pdf.donrowe.com/swxfr_120v_230v_owners_guide.pdf

With your loads, beside the idle load rating you need to know the start up loads are.

But, for simple purposes, your load specs from the main fridge, mini fridge and whatever it is you want on those outlets.

Take that number then for rough calcs use the inverter rated wattage, calculate what 92% is of that then figure out what 80% total load would be be to run your appliances with some overhead available. Inverters have over load reserve, but that is for micro seconds.

And back to what I said before, for my use I never turn it off and the panel is in the propane compartment, easy to see and access, but not not right up front (i mentioned previously the panel was in the gen compartment, that is not correct. My inverter is there, the panel is in the door-side propane locker.

 

[Greengas]

The Kiase inverters. I really do not know much about them. But they have been carried by West Marine for several years now. WM is the largest marine supply in the country and for the most part all of their stock is quality product.
I have never heard anything negative with the Kiase - I would not buy anymore xantrex product.

Don Rowe carries Kiase on his website. He does not sell junk.

THe AIMS display I'm sure only works with AIMS inverters.

The Kiase inverter has a remote panel, the panel you see on the inverter pictures is removable and attached with a telephone or data cable.

The panel has different readouts that you can cycle through. And all of the inverter features are set with that panel.

Here is the manual for the product line.

http://pdf.donrowe.com/swxfr_120v_230v_owners_guide.pdf

With your loads, beside the idle load rating you need to know the start up loads are.

But, for simple purposes, your load specs from the main fridge, mini fridge and whatever it is you want on those outlets.

Take that number then for rough calcs use the inverter rated wattage, calculate what 92% is of that then figure out what 80% total load would be be to run your appliances with some overhead available. Inverters have over load reserve, but that is for micro seconds.

And back to what I said before, for my use I never turn it off and the panel is in the propane compartment, easy to see and access, but not not right up front (i mentioned previously the panel was in the gen compartment, that is not correct. My inverter is there, the panel is in the door-side propane locker.

Just wondering what your thoughts are about the recommendation I got for not getting an inverter with a transfer switch and just wiring the inverter directly into the auto transfer switch I already have?

 

[porthole]

Just wondering what your thoughts are about the recommendation I got for not getting an inverter with a transfer switch and just wiring the inverter directly into the auto transfer switch I already have?

I did not see where you got that recommendation.

But, as I mentioned before, some inverters need a load before they will start inverting. See my example above using my electric drill with a Heart Interface (one of the top inverters made before xantrex got ahold of them).

I don't understand why someone would recommend using the trailer's built in transfer switch. First of all, even if it was practical there is an inherent delay of about 20 seconds with the shore power - generator transfer switches (gen warm up). That delay could wreck havoc with your reefer compressor.

Besides inverters with pure sine wave technology, inverters with built in transfer switches tend to be of a higher quality.

And keep in mind, the built in transfer switch is designed to do exactly what it is made for and what you are trying to accomplish. And that switch of power between line voltage and inverted voltage happens in millie seconds.

Personally, I would not waste my time trying to make the trailer's transfer switch work. If you already had the inverter you could get a separate transfer switch from Magnum. This switch is only 15 amp, but it transfer in 80 microseconds.


https://www.amazon.com/Magnum-CSW-TS15-Transfer-Switch-Amp/dp/B01D4YXSW0

http://www.magnum-dimensions.com/sites/default/files/MagDocs/64-0064-Rev-A-CSW-TS15-Web.pdf

 

[Greengas]

Re: Auto Transfer Switch Question - Decision

Ok, thanks to everyone for all their guidance and education. Here is what I've decided to buy.

Inverter: This is a 2000w inverter with built in transfer switch. The display panel on the inverter is removable and can be connected via cable so it can be located in my control panel inside the rig. I really think that a 3000 watt inverter would be overkill. I feel real confident with this choice. I know Magnum is the absolute top of the line but it is just outside of my wallet. I also know it would be better to buy an inverter/charger but again, outside of my wallet. This inverter is not a Magnum but it has great reviews and is sold by places that really stand behind their stuff.

Fuse: I found a web site that recommended a 300 amp fuse. Still a bit shaky in this area but. I've researched the amount of draw I will be putting on my 3 group 31 AGMS (each with 105 amp hrs) and this is what I've come up with. I'm sure if I need to move up to a bigger fuse my Heartland family will let me know.
.
Cables: on the cables, I am buying 4' of 4/0 in both red and black with 5/16ths lugs on both ends. This is more than enough to allow the installer to cut what he needs and then put lugs on the open ends. The inverter will be on the back wall of the compartment, which puts it about 1 foot from the batteries, etc. Pretty confident with this part of the decision based on everyone saying get 4/0 cable. I checked the specs on my battery and the 5/16ths lugs are the right size. The other way to go is to just buy the cable and let the installer put on all the lugs. I've asked that question and will get my answer in the morning, if not sooner.

Well, there you have it.

Thoughts?

 

[porthole]

Don't forget, you need enough cable and connectors to interconnect your batteries.

And when you wire the batteries.

This is incorrect, creates an unbalanced battery bank (load and charge primarily off first battery)



Correct wiring, load/charge is equal across all batteries (positive from first battery, negative from last battery)



- - - Updated - - -

Inverter applications should use fast acting Class T fuses. The fuse you linked to is typical for automotive amplifiers.

https://www.amazon.com/Go-Power-FBL-300-Class-Block/dp/B00153CXJC

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Class-Fuses/dp/B000XBGT3S?th=1

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Sys...rd_wg=kOPuz&psc=1&refRID=DKTGK2JPSTHR1R5AP1C6

And don't forget you need some kind of disconnect switch between the batteries and inverter.

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Sys...rd_wg=Is4Ea&psc=1&refRID=X5TJX3J4T2EK1ZBNF24G

 

[Greengas]

Don't forget, you need enough cable and connectors to interconnect your batteries.

And when you wire the batteries.

This is incorrect, creates an unbalanced battery bank (load and charge primarily off first battery)

View attachment 56914

Correct wiring, load/charge is equal across all batteries (positive from first battery, negative from last battery)

View attachment 56915

- - - Updated - - -

Inverter applications should use fast acting Class T fuses. The fuse you linked to is typical for automotive amplifiers.

https://www.amazon.com/Go-Power-FBL-300-Class-Block/dp/B00153CXJC

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Class-Fuses/dp/B000XBGT3S?th=1

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Sys...rd_wg=kOPuz&psc=1&refRID=DKTGK2JPSTHR1R5AP1C6

And don't forget you need some kind of disconnect switch between the batteries and inverter.

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Sys...rd_wg=Is4Ea&psc=1&refRID=X5TJX3J4T2EK1ZBNF24G

Thanks so very much for the insight and guidance. I've now placed the order to include what you recommended. So excited!

 

[Greengas]

Re: Auto Transfer Switch Question - Picture!

So, the residential fridge is in place. The installer sent a picture. I asked that since he put it directly on the floor of the slide how it is secured and he said if you take off the false draw front on the top you will see the straps, etc., holding it in place. Looks good to me! The inverter should be delivered next week and all the other bits and pieces in a day or two. So while he is waiting for all that he is installing my backup camera, putting up TV mount in the bedroom, running the two outlets that will be hooked up to the inverter, setting up the 3 new batteries and checking out my furnace for what ever was causing that smell.

So excited!

 

[carl.swoyer]

Re: Auto Transfer Switch Question - Picture!

So, the residential fridge is in place. The installer sent a picture. I asked that since he put it directly on the floor of the slide how it is secured and he said if you take off the false draw front on the top you will see the straps, etc., holding it in place. Looks good to me! The inverter should be delivered next week and all the other bits and pieces in a day or two. So while he is waiting for all that he is installing my backup camera, putting up TV mount in the bedroom, running the two outlets that will be hooked up to the inverter, setting up the 3 new batteries and checking out my furnace for what ever was causing that smell.

So excited!

View attachment 56926

Very nice

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[Greengas]

Re: Auto Transfer Switch Question - Picture!

Very nice

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And thank you for your help, guidance and education. I really appreciate it.

 

[carl.swoyer]

Re: Auto Transfer Switch Question - Picture!

And thank you for your help, guidance and education. I really appreciate it.

That what makes this forum fantastic.
All about information
Your welcome

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[porthole]

Re: Auto Transfer Switch Question - Picture!

Looks great.

Looking forward to when we can have a residential fridge.

So, the residential fridge is in place. The installer sent a picture. I asked that since he put it directly on the floor of the slide how it is secured and he said if you take off the false draw front on the top you will see the straps, etc., holding it in place. Looks good to me! The inverter should be delivered next week and all the other bits and pieces in a day or two. So while he is waiting for all that he is installing my backup camera, putting up TV mount in the bedroom, running the two outlets that will be hooked up to the inverter, setting up the 3 new batteries and checking out my furnace for what ever was causing that smell.

So excited!

View attachment 56926

 

[Greengas]

Re: Auto Transfer Switch Question - Picture!

Looks great.

Looking forward to when we can have a residential fridge.

Even with paying for installation it turned out way cheaper than we thought it would. That's why we made the move now.