Diesel exhaust fluid
- Thread starter Thensley
- Start date
travelin2
Pennsylvania Chapter Leaders-retired
American Petroleum Institute certification is not the same as ISO 22241 certification. The API set the standard and ISO confirms the quality control of that standard. Therefore the consistency of the mixture from batch to batch could have a variance around that API citification. I am willing to pay the extra few dollars to have a piece of mind that the DEF is more consistently pure-- your exhaust system will be happier
Walmart generic DEF...
Each to their own but for the sake of argument, how many "generic" labeled DEF brands does the Blue DEF brand package? Not saying Walmart's is Blue DEF but there are less than a dozen DEF producers. https://trucktanks.com/def-manufacturers-diesel-exhaust-fluid/
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jleavitt11
retired Utah Chapter Leaders
American Petroleum Institute certification is not the same as ISO 22241 certification. The API set the standard and ISO confirms the quality control of that standard. Therefore the consistency of the mixture from batch to batch could have a variance around that API citification. I am willing to pay the extra few dollars to have a piece of mind that the DEF is more consistently pure-- your exhaust system will be happier
Actually API is the organization that certifies manufactures produce DEF to ISO 22241 specifications. They also continually test samples from manufactures to insure adherence to the specifications. The certifications are annual so the companies are always changing. The program is voluntary and requires a fee so there are many manufactures who's product could meet the specifications but are not listed with API. There are currently 136 companies world wide certified to supply DEF to ISO 22241 on the API list.
Actually API is the organization that certifies manufactures produce DEF to ISO 22241 specifications. They also continually test samples from manufactures to insure adherence to the specifications. The certifications are annual so the companies are always changing. The program is voluntary and requires a fee so there are many manufactures who's product could meet the specifications but are not listed with API. There are currently 136 companies world wide certified to supply DEF to ISO 22241 on the API list.
I have been using the Walmart generic def. for about 30K miles without problem in my 2016 F250.
I also carry one of those magnetic release adapters so you can use the truck stop def. You never know when you will run low.
https://www.amazon.com/American-Lub...47&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=def+nozzle+adapter
IMO the truck stop is a pain in the butt. I don't want to take up a lane, go in and give them my CC since they often don't have pay at the pump on the commercial island, and then pump 2.5 gallons of DEF.
On Fords I have had a problem if you fill the DEF to often giving me a Low DEF fluid warning and a mileage countdown even though the tank is almost full. To remedy that I always wait until the message center says less than 1/2 remaining before filling it up. This is very un-nerving when it happens.
The best and cheapest DEF filling funnel is the Motorcraft one.
https://www.amazon.com/Motorcraft-N...1720901&sr=8-1&keywords=Motorcraft+def+nozzle
Works very well on the Chevys that you have to fill under the hood because it doesn't let you overfill and spill all over the engine bay. I have used it on the generic DEF containers without problem.
I also carry one of those magnetic release adapters so you can use the truck stop def. You never know when you will run low.
https://www.amazon.com/American-Lub...47&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=def+nozzle+adapter
IMO the truck stop is a pain in the butt. I don't want to take up a lane, go in and give them my CC since they often don't have pay at the pump on the commercial island, and then pump 2.5 gallons of DEF.
On Fords I have had a problem if you fill the DEF to often giving me a Low DEF fluid warning and a mileage countdown even though the tank is almost full. To remedy that I always wait until the message center says less than 1/2 remaining before filling it up. This is very un-nerving when it happens.
The best and cheapest DEF filling funnel is the Motorcraft one.
https://www.amazon.com/Motorcraft-N...1720901&sr=8-1&keywords=Motorcraft+def+nozzle
Works very well on the Chevys that you have to fill under the hood because it doesn't let you overfill and spill all over the engine bay. I have used it on the generic DEF containers without problem.
Doublegranch
Mountain Region Director-Retired
Interesting article when you google DEF:
[h=2]PPC Blog[/h][h=3]Is All Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) the Same?[/h]April 22, 2013 - 10:13am
This topic is coming up more and more often and the answer is somewhat complicated since the answer lies within the definition of what is Diesel Exhaust Fluid. In order for something to be called a Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) the product must meet the following criteria:
Must meet ISO 22241—Which is an international standard that defines the quality requirements for DEF including production, storage and distribution. The production, handling and transportation of DEF is governed by the ISO 22241 standards. The key points are:
Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) must have a urea concentration of 32.5% by weight. This concentration was chosen because it is has the lowest freezing temperature, 12°F.
The maximum level of impurities such as calcium and various metals such as iron, copper, zinc and aluminum are clearly specified. These limits are extremely low, to ensure reliable operation of the SCR system.
This definition excludes the use of urea grades used in agriculture, and requires water purified by distillation or deionization or similar.
IF a product does not adhere to the ISO 22241 standards, then that fluid cannot by definition be called a Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF). With a growing market there will be more and more unlicensed products to hit the streets calling their product DEF but it will simply be a urea solution. The only reason why a product would be unlicensed would likely be that it wouldn’t meet the ISO and API standard for DEF. The issue with these products will be that they will likely lead to failures of SCR systems. Some of these failures could be immediate and others will likely take days, weeks, months or even years to detect before leading to a failure, but premature failure of the SCR system will occur.
Even today there is a lot of discussion on blogs talking about how even some independent blenders of DEF who have registered with the API and follow the ISO 22241standards are not testing every batch and that some batches are not meeting the very strict ISO 22241 standards.
This can happen for a number of reasons, but primarily due to the type and purity of urea is not the Pharmaceutical Grade Urea but rather the Agricultural Grade Urea which contains impurities like aldehydes and excessive levels of biuret in relation to the ISO 22241 standards which are poisonous to the SCR systems. The other area that will cause critical failures for the manufacturing of DEF is the water purity. De-Ionized water is critical to the manufacturing of DEF. The slightest amount of metals/contaminants found in the water will cause the fluid to not meet the ISO 22241 specification and these elements will be poisonous to the SCR system. Elements like:
Calcium, Zinc, Magnesium, Iron, Chromium, Nickel, Sodium and Potassium
All of the above are found in varying quantities/concentrations in typical tap water.
In closing, ONLY product that adheres to the ISO 22241 specification and is licensed with the API can be called Diesel Exhaust Fluid...all other products are simply Urea Solutions to various concentrations and cannot be called Diesel Exhaust Fluid.
Take it one step further and ONLY those suppliers who have long term supply arrangements with the producers of Urea and more specifically Pharmaceutical Grade Urea will be in a position to keep the market supplied with Diesel Exhaust Fluid so picking the right Supplier and Distributor is essential to ensuring that you have product to keep your fleet and equipment moving.
[h=2]PPC Blog[/h][h=3]Is All Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) the Same?[/h]April 22, 2013 - 10:13am
This topic is coming up more and more often and the answer is somewhat complicated since the answer lies within the definition of what is Diesel Exhaust Fluid. In order for something to be called a Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) the product must meet the following criteria:
Must meet ISO 22241—Which is an international standard that defines the quality requirements for DEF including production, storage and distribution. The production, handling and transportation of DEF is governed by the ISO 22241 standards. The key points are:
Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) must have a urea concentration of 32.5% by weight. This concentration was chosen because it is has the lowest freezing temperature, 12°F.
The maximum level of impurities such as calcium and various metals such as iron, copper, zinc and aluminum are clearly specified. These limits are extremely low, to ensure reliable operation of the SCR system.
This definition excludes the use of urea grades used in agriculture, and requires water purified by distillation or deionization or similar.
IF a product does not adhere to the ISO 22241 standards, then that fluid cannot by definition be called a Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF). With a growing market there will be more and more unlicensed products to hit the streets calling their product DEF but it will simply be a urea solution. The only reason why a product would be unlicensed would likely be that it wouldn’t meet the ISO and API standard for DEF. The issue with these products will be that they will likely lead to failures of SCR systems. Some of these failures could be immediate and others will likely take days, weeks, months or even years to detect before leading to a failure, but premature failure of the SCR system will occur.
Even today there is a lot of discussion on blogs talking about how even some independent blenders of DEF who have registered with the API and follow the ISO 22241standards are not testing every batch and that some batches are not meeting the very strict ISO 22241 standards.
This can happen for a number of reasons, but primarily due to the type and purity of urea is not the Pharmaceutical Grade Urea but rather the Agricultural Grade Urea which contains impurities like aldehydes and excessive levels of biuret in relation to the ISO 22241 standards which are poisonous to the SCR systems. The other area that will cause critical failures for the manufacturing of DEF is the water purity. De-Ionized water is critical to the manufacturing of DEF. The slightest amount of metals/contaminants found in the water will cause the fluid to not meet the ISO 22241 specification and these elements will be poisonous to the SCR system. Elements like:
Calcium, Zinc, Magnesium, Iron, Chromium, Nickel, Sodium and Potassium
All of the above are found in varying quantities/concentrations in typical tap water.
In closing, ONLY product that adheres to the ISO 22241 specification and is licensed with the API can be called Diesel Exhaust Fluid...all other products are simply Urea Solutions to various concentrations and cannot be called Diesel Exhaust Fluid.
Take it one step further and ONLY those suppliers who have long term supply arrangements with the producers of Urea and more specifically Pharmaceutical Grade Urea will be in a position to keep the market supplied with Diesel Exhaust Fluid so picking the right Supplier and Distributor is essential to ensuring that you have product to keep your fleet and equipment moving.
Doublegranch
Mountain Region Director-Retired
DEF Q & A PDF Attached...
Good Read for those of interest:
Good Read for those of interest:
travelin2
Pennsylvania Chapter Leaders-retired
Why buy ahead and store it when you can drive thousands of miles, have a tank gauge, and info messages indicating amounts used/onboard???
I don't. Buy it, pour it!
Just saying...
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Bones
Well-known member
I'm talking about the DEF in your tank. Technically that is a storage tank until you need it so that tank is exposed to the high temperatures they recommend not keeping DEF at.
CoveredWagon
Well-known member
wish we had an "agree" button. I was think that very thing yesterday as I was hanging over the fender filling the DEF tank. 🤔 At least on my Chevy the tank hangs under the truck, maybe it gets cooling air while driving. Yeah right.
travelin2
Pennsylvania Chapter Leaders-retired
You need to use that Ram more...
My DEF certainly doesn't get "stale"!!
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Bones
Well-known member
You need to use that Ram more...
My DEF certainly doesn't get "stale"!!
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I would like to.
I have 30k on the truck now so not too bad.
nscaler2
Well-known member
Boy you got that right. 2 years ago I filled with Walmart def. About 300 miles down the road, in the middle of Illinois farm country,I got a def warning. Finally found a dealer that would work on it. Turned out, after two days at the shop, the def injector was clogged and some sensors work screwed up. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. I certainly won't use Walmart DEF anymore.
CoveredWagon
Well-known member
Don't know if you'd call this WalMart's brand or not, but it appears to be ISO certified
See post #62
See post #62
WillyBill
Well-known member
@DoubleGranch
Thanks for the info link on the DEF. I've been carrying around a couple of gallons BLUE for spare in my bed box for two years. Little did I know that it goes bad and if stored in +90 temps that it goes bad fast. Won't be packing that anymore.
Thanks again,
WB
Thanks for the info link on the DEF. I've been carrying around a couple of gallons BLUE for spare in my bed box for two years. Little did I know that it goes bad and if stored in +90 temps that it goes bad fast. Won't be packing that anymore.
Thanks again,
WB
Dennyha
Well-known member
Same here.
WillyBill
Well-known member
My GMC Dealer told me when I bought my Truck to either use GM or Blue Def only - "Don't buy at the pump". Their service sees too many light truck problems from "pump" DEF they said.
Since I don't use that much I just buy Blue at Sams when I need it $11.00/Box here.
WB
Since I don't use that much I just buy Blue at Sams when I need it $11.00/Box here.
WB
fastcarsspeed
Well-known member
I will vote for the delete of DEF when your DPF starts clogging and you are looking to replace it. I have run on street and tow tunes with my 2011 and don't see much soot at all. I did a full dp back exhaust with a muffler, CAI, EGR Delete and tuner when the truck was at 105k miles because I was finally out of warranty and my EGR was showing signs of being clogged. I also was going through regen more and more. My mileage is about the same maybe a little higher but the power I have now when towing is night and day difference. The truck just breathes so much better. DEF was great and other than the exhaust smell in the winter I never minded it at all. Also I have only ever used Blue Def which you can get from anywhere including Walmart.
Doublegranch
Mountain Region Director-Retired
I am not an expert on this but I have deleted in the past and did love it, but it was a 11 Ram and def wasn’t involved. But with the newer Ram and using DEF it is somewhat different situation. I have 46,000 mile on my 16 Ram and there are no noticeable regen moments when driving, it’s not like the old models where it takes fuel to do so. The def is a constant spray and hence it is in a continual regen with no noticeable driving or performance difference. As mentioned in a previous post, you no longer have to delete the newer diesels to obtain results desired with power & MPG. Smarty Soft Touch is just one of several tuners that work with factory stock newer models using the def. You keep your stock equipment and the tuner works in conjunction with it. It improves your MPG and power and does a better performance in reducing the particulates. I don’t understand how it all works but Smarty sent me a couple of PDF files to review testing done in Germany on this system. The numbers were impressive!
If I were to skirt around the factory program required by the EPA, this is the tool I would use. It is a stealth footprint and you just return the truck back to stock with the tuner before heading into the dealer for check ups & service. Your EGR stays cleaner vs factory settings as well. My thoughts are, I will not delete the 16 Ram as it’s too difficult for resale, you need the right buyer and on a dealer trade, you need to make it stock again. The dollars spent in doing so from both ends, doesn’t justify the expense vs savings unless this will be your “forever” truck. I generally upgrade at around 150,000 miles. The Smarty touch would be a different story, as you take it with you for the next upgraded truck with def.
If I were to skirt around the factory program required by the EPA, this is the tool I would use. It is a stealth footprint and you just return the truck back to stock with the tuner before heading into the dealer for check ups & service. Your EGR stays cleaner vs factory settings as well. My thoughts are, I will not delete the 16 Ram as it’s too difficult for resale, you need the right buyer and on a dealer trade, you need to make it stock again. The dollars spent in doing so from both ends, doesn’t justify the expense vs savings unless this will be your “forever” truck. I generally upgrade at around 150,000 miles. The Smarty touch would be a different story, as you take it with you for the next upgraded truck with def.
