Diesel Fuel Additive

[Jim.Allison]

Bringing the OP question back to the top, regarding his 2006 powerstroke. What would then be the consensus concerning his lubricity concerns. It seems that he is asking what is being used by people similarly situated? I dont have a Ford Powerstroke, so I don't know the potential problems with the use of the different lubricity products, or the lack of use of such products.

But, I do know that there are cleaners with lubricity additives on the market. After reading this whole thread, I would encourage him to address his concerns with a Motorcraft product designed for his motor, or look at one of the Cummins filtration products. Just a note about the Cummins filtration products; Cummins filtration is a large scale industrial supplier of these type additives. They are packaged in small consumer packages all the way to 55 gallon barrels. They are in the business of providing fuel treatment and filtration to all diesel motors, not just Cummins. After looking at their additives you can buy specific product to address your specific concern rather than take a shotgun approach. There are other quality products that have been mentioned here that are in the same business, but not affiliated with any specific motor manufacturer.

Personally I think the ones that make the most promises, such as more HP and any other mystifying claims are snake oil, unless the claim is based on cleaner internals. I read and I believe that there is no HP left on the table in a modern diesel motor, and there is none to be had out of a little bottle of fluid added to the tank. But lubricity may infact be a legitimate concern and it would not be unreasonable to address it.

On the two stroke oil issue, in days past while racing go-carts, motorcycles, and flying RC airplanes, I reminisce of the oily residue left on the exhaust and the oil left on the internals, back then the fuel entered through the crankcase and lubricate the bearings and the cylinder. That two stroke oil resisted burning by spark ignition and because of that was effective at cleaning the cylinder and crankcase. I rarely saw a dirty motor except for the dirt stuck to the oil residue. Of course nothing can escape combustion in the cylinder of a diesel. I just wonder what is in 2 stroke oil that would affect the "soot cooker", certainly there is nothing that would affect the EGR.

My thoughts on the two stroke are limited to small gasoline motors and are not related to the large notable 2 stroke diesel motors.

I am wondering what everyone is using for their diesel trucks as an additive to the diesel fuel. I have a 2006 F-350 Dually with the 6.0 Power Stroke Turbo diesel engine.

 

[MagnoliaTom]

I have an 05 Powerstroke. It now has over 195k miles on it. I have used the Wally World 2 cycle oil for the past 70k miles with no ill effects. I don't use it for added hp or mpg. It's to add lubricity. A side benefit is that my truck seems to run a little quieter and smoother with it. Adding 100% biodiesel does the same thing. My engine has an 04 build date, preceding the introduction of ULSD. I don't know that I would need to (or want to) add anything to a new diesel. Just my .02.
Whether it truly does any good or not...who knows. I do it because I think it helps my truck. But YMMV

 

[avvidclif]

My 2009 Ford has a warning to not use over 10% Bio-diesel. ???

 

[Jim.Allison]

I saw the label at walmart that states that their diesel might contain up to 20% biodiesel. I used it, but, I want to try to figure out what the 2013 Cummins owners manual says about it. I might not buy anymore of it.

 

[Bohemian]

Ram Cummins:

2007-2015 B5 compatible
2013.5 - current: B20 compatible

 

[porthole]

Actually this comment was a response to your comment that the two stroke oil theory was BS. It appears that you were commenting on a earlier post by someone else that he used Wally World two stroke. I guess then "basis to the thread" reverts back to your comment which came before mine lol. Hench my response about using two stroke. I am simply the messenger here. I paraphrased someone who builds Duramax engines for sledding and drag racing. I will not post the company or his name without his permission but if you want to call him and talk with him I will be happy to PM his company and phone number.

Did you read the study I posted? Again I am the messenger only here but there was some work put into that study. It is dated, obviously, but as I mentioned in a followup post who knows if the modern diesel has anything built in to cover the low sulfur diesel issue that still exists. I doubt it, as some manufacturers are still recommending additives. The good point of that study is that it is not backed by Dodge, Chevy, or Ford so it has no dog in the "which brand additive" fight.

I did read that study when it came out and it was one of the reasons I used some 2 stroke or ATF in my D-max. I am still a member of that forum as well, just not active anymore.

AFAIK, there is not one forum member here, and probably since the forum was started, that is driving a 2 stroke diesel tow vehicle.

The D-max sled builder - racer is not dealing with any of the emission components that we are. And I will stick with the opinion that adding the 2 stroke oil was old school and never really proven past that old school application which was for prior non ULSD approved diesel engines.

Don't take this the wrong way, your truck is one of the exceptions here. It is a pre heavy emission controlled, pre ULSD engine, which is both a plus and a negative. You have your own issues because of the ULSD, and could probably benefit with the 2 stroke. But it is not to keep your engine clean. My guess is we may be above the 50% mark on tow vehicles here being 2010 or newer, many with the DPF's and SCR's.

Actually this comment was a response to your comment that the two stroke oil theory was BS.

I did say

And for those contemplating adding two stroke or any other oils to the fuel, that trick went out with introduction of cat's, SCR's and DPF's

&

That was me - and no matter what Banks says - adding two stroke oil is absolutely contraindicated for modern automotive diesels because of the emission components. I did use two stroke oil in my D-max occasionally but that LB-7 did not have DPF's or SCR's and - I did remove the CAT.

You use 2 stroke mixed in with your fuel and you will have emission component issues that will not be covered under warranty.

& this

And that comment about two strokes being cleaners because of using two stroke is BS as it relates to 4 strokes versus 2 stroke.

Good study, but dated. Would be nice to have it redone with the current crop of emission controlled engines.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76.../177728-lubricity-additive-study-results.html

almost 8 years old. Do you think that should be taken into consideration on newer engines and their components?

Absolutely.

The newer engines are probably different but then who knows since the lubrication is still not standard in low sulfur and has not changed since that study was done.
What else would provide the necessary lubricity in new engines over older?
I have no hard fact but suspect that nothing has changed in diesel engines that would help prevent premature wear from low sulfur diesel.
This is especially true if some of the manufacturers of new diesel trucks are still suggesting additives to fuel.

Just like when lead was removed from gasoline and it required engine manufacturer to rethink the components in the IC engine (mostly valves and seats), switching to USLD in 2007 required the revamping of components for diesels, mostly fuel system items AFAIK.

Seals, injectors and high pressure pumps were some of the components that were susceptible to the lack of lubricating properties of ULSD fuel. Although the sulfur itself is not a lubricant.
And ULSD does not have the same energy content, so we lose some fuel mileage.

 

[Jim.Allison]

Do we lose energy/gallon when we buy discount fuels with biofuels. Do we get the same bang for the buck?

Ram Cummins:

2007-2015 B5 compatible
2013.5 - current: B20 compatible

 

[Lynn1130]

AFAIK, there is not one forum member here, and probably since the forum was started, that is driving a 2 stroke diesel tow vehicle.

Sorry but that has to be one of the most out of context and "nothing to do with anything" statements I have seen in awhile. And what is AFAIK anyway?

The website that did the original study has a post up asking for updated questions related to additives and they plan to do a more recent study.

The question still stands and I have seen nothing posted to answer it. Who says the newer diesels are engineered for ULSD? You or is there some documentation out to that point? Where is it? If they do why are some auto manufacturers still suggesting additives?

And again, in case you missed it. I do not use 2 stroke or ATF. Those that feel they need it can use it and perhaps we should keep our opinions of their tactics to ourselves. I simply passed on a comment by someone who knows more about it than me and for some reason it has become a thorn in the side of some, not me.

Oh, and actually the builder is dealing with more stringent emissions rules since he is in California and builds street vehicles as well.

 

[Lynn1130]

This is the only info I can find on ULSD and lubricity. It is dated 3/15.

http://www.tdi-issues.com/problems-tac69/lubricity-of-ulsd-diesel-gap168.htm

I cannot find anything that says that newer diesel engines are designed for ULSD. Dodge hints at it in some of their documentation but then says that ULSD can wear components in the engines. VW seems to be the only manufacturer that says don't add anything.

If I were driving a 2015 Duramax I think I would be asking pointed questions at the dealer service department and doing it by e-mail so that I had documentation if they said yes use it or no don't use it. The problem with being under warranty is that if they say yes or no and the damage appears after the warranty is over you are SOL, unless you can get them to put it in writing.

 

[Jim.Allison]

I dont know but maybe I'm confused.

Did that Cummins service bulletin, I posted say that "no additives are required" with modern diesel fuel, but Cummins filtration could provide a product for "specific" known fuel issues?

 

[Lynn1130]

Do a search. Your service bulletin is not the only piece posted by Dodge concerning lubricity and their engines. I found several related to newer Dodge diesel engines. Better yet read the bulletin as it is one of the best articles of double talk that I have ever seen. It seems that they did just about everything that they could to satisfy the lawyers and avoid a warranty claim should someone decide to use any additive known to man.

Case in point:

In certain situations, when available fuels are of poor quality or problems exist which are peculiar to certain operations, additives can be used. However, Cummins Inc. recommends consultation with the fuel supplier or the Cummins® Service Engineering Department prior to the use of fuel additives.Among the situations where additives can prove useful are the following: A cetane improver additive can be used with low cetane fuels. A pour point depressant or flow improver additive can help with high pour point fuels. A wax crystal modifier can help with fuels with high cold filter plugging points (CFPP). An anti-icer can help prevent ice formation in wet fuel during cold weather. An anti-oxidant or storage stability additive can help with fuel system deposits and poor storage stability. A lubricity enhancer can be used to increase the lubricity of fuels so that they meet the requirements given in Table 1.A biocide or fungicide can help when fuels are prone to contamination with bacteria or fungus

....add nausium!

This type of BS by manufacturers may be why the question of additives never has an answer.

 

[Jim.Allison]

IMHO

I think the Cummins service bulletin is very clear. It very carefully explains, when taken in its entirety that a fuel supplement is not needed unless you have a known fuel problem. I have been researching it but have not found the links from Cummins that are in conflict with the service bulletin, and the Cummins filtration guide. Please post a link to these so that I can become more informed.

I fail to see how the statement is cannon fodder for them in that, if you have a warranty issue related to common pump diesel, you can very simply point out that both their service bulletin and the owners manual specifically state that no fuel additives are necessary and in fact can be detrimental if used without knowing if you have a know fuel deficiency.

Sometimes technical writing can be difficult to read, but the Cummins info is not ambiguous.

The ambiguity is introduced when you include Cummins filtration comments, but taken in its entirety, it is clear to me that Cummins filtration is saying the same things Cummins is saying, but from a different perspective. They are advertising their fuel additives to provide solutions to specific known fuel problems to ALL diesel motors, not just Cummins. Cummins filtration is after a much broader market, and provides solution to fuel problems to those customers, primarily fleet and industrial users. They do provide consumer packaging for you and me, but you will be hard pressed to find it anywhere but a Cummins motor parts house in the industrial side of town.

From my reading of all the comments on this thread, I plan to visit one of those dealers and buy some of their products to use when towing. You can never tell when you will run into some poor fuel in some small towns. The fuel might be infected, have water in it, or might have been adulterated. I also feel that a dose of their cleaner/ maintainer which has a lubricity enhancer in it, is also a good product to use when towing. And for an Alaska Canada trip, one would be wise to have an additive that will treat fuel in extreme cold weather on hand, although I'm sure that fuel stops have the cold weather fuels available in those regions.

You are right, ambiguity causes confusion and subsequent unnecessary expenditure. I believe in targeting your fuel problem, either real or perceived. But buying snake oil, is not going to address your real or perceived problem. Many (not all) diesel enhancers are designed for impulse buying and make boastful claims. There are solid products, from reputable people, who have been in the fuel conditioning business for many years. They do not have fancy labels, and bold claims, they will provide all the facts concerning their products and the exact results you can expect. They will not make claims of more horsepower, unless they are talking about cleaning your motors fuel system and recapturing the HP your motor once had, because a clean engine is a healthy engine.

 

[Jim.Allison]

Without proper fuel filtration, the minor lubricity issue is really a moot point. This is why Cummins specifies the Nanonet fuel filter, and fleetguard provides them to the filter market.

 

[caissiel]

I have no time to read the above arguments by non users of 2 cycle oils.
My experience dates back to 1978 where we used a similar product to clean the burners for our boilers. The sales Representative informed me it was 2 cycle oil we were buying in large quantity. I used it in all my 4 cycle engines from lawnmower to my truck. In 40 years I never got any injector problems and found improvement in engine performance every time. Even in cars parked over the winter.
I have a 2005 6.0L international diesel and use the 2 cycle oil sparingly when I fond performance problem with certain tank fillups. I just pour it over the full fuel tanks. While towing the 15K BC it's very noticeable.
I have eliminated many fueling station due to bad fuel performance. By adding 2 cycle oil seam to give performance to the bad fuel. For me its the power and fuel mileage gain that convinced me that 2 Cycle oil works.
It is very important to use it in my carburater equipped antique cars.
You have to use it on bad fuel to feel to improvement. What I call bad fuel could be high bio content diesel fuel used by some companies.
Since the introduction of ULSD I find much better quality consistency.
All my test have been done using the ScangaugeII.

 

[Bohemian]

recommends consultation with the fuel supplier or the Cummins® Service Engineering Department

That's funny. About 1 chance in **** of getting a straight answer and a need to call with each and every fill up. Or field test each fuel right before/after you buy it but before you drive away.

 

[Bohemian]

Why would you call? Your fuel sources are of a known quality. If you were and industrial user, or bulk buyer,then you need to know what your supplier is supplying you with, so that you can make the corrections necessary, say perhaps you has a fleet of CATs, or some other motor and you wanted to bring your fuel into specs for those motors.

In the retail fuel industry you have no idea who your supplier is. Fuel at a Shell station is not necessarily produced by Shell Oil. It is delivered from a local depot which may have Shell Oil fuel or something else acceptable to Shell Oil. Or the individual station may cheat and buy some amount elsewhere. Which would only be considered a contract violation with Shell Oil unless someone took the time to test the fuel and prove there was consistent long term inferior fuel, not an occasional error.

The point is, you either trust all the stations you visit, or you don't trust, but you can not do what Cummins says and know by asking about the fuel in each case all over the country as you travel.

OK. how many people here buy fuel at only one station and know for an absolute fact that it meets all standards at each and every fueling.

How many have ever asked the know supplier of the fuel about the analysis of it's current batch of fuel?

 

[Jim.Allison]

That is the point, the additives packages are put in at the terminal for the specific delivery, if shell has a spec the terminal will install the additive package. While it is true that one terminal delivers most of the fuel in an area, they install the additives at the terminal for the specific customer. Be it Shell, or Exxon, or a bulk user.

Cummins filtration supplies additional products for known fuel deficiencies. If you know that your fuel lacks lubricity, you can buy the lubricity enhancer or any other product to enhance your fuel.

 

[Bohemian]

That is the point, the additives packages are put in at the terminal for the specific delivery, if shell has a spec the terminal will install the additive package. While it is true that one terminal delivers most of the fuel in an area, they install the additives at the terminal for the specific customer. Be it Shell, or Exxon, or a bulk user.

Cummins filtration supplies additional products for known fuel deficiencies. If you know that your fuel lacks lubricity, you can buy the lubricity enhancer or any other product to enhance your fuel.

I am still commenting on the absurdity of Cummins recommendations. They ese3ntually recommend checking with the supplier. I stand by my statement. That statement is absurd. It would in fact require checking on each fill.

 

[caissiel]

I can tell bad fuel after one mile towing. I feel the improvement after a few miles of pouring the oil on top of the tank
I never pour the oil in an empty tank. Pilot, FJ has been great for me. Up north I use Exxon/Esso with great improvement in power and mileage.
If on dought I just pour oil anyway, better safe then sorry.
Cheap fuel is not necessarily cheap. But a boost with oil does pays.

 

[Jim.Allison]

Would you check with your fuel additive supplier to see if the additive was compatible with the fuel that you are buying?

I discounted what one poster said about this product, but $150 bucks seems cheap to treat 5000 gallons of diesel.

http://www.blueridgediesel.com/shop/lubricity-formula-additive-5-gallons/

I am still commenting on the absurdity of Cummins recommendations. They ese3ntually recommend checking with the supplier. I stand by my statement. That statement is absurd. It would in fact require checking on each fill.