Disc Brake help!

[RAHanock]

I could use some help... I have an 11 month old Sundance 3300RLB with 6000 lb rated axles. In May I noticed the brakes were very weak (they were probably that way from the beginning, but didn't notice it). I contacted Heartland and Lippert and followed their suggestions of adjustment and burnishing but the brakes are still weak. I have given up trying to get Lippert to respond to e-mails or phone calls. I am seriously considering converting to disc brakes for I am concerned that this will be an on-going problem with this brake design, even if Lippert were to replace the parts.

However, I am finding that there are no easy or inexpensive options to do this conversion. I have tried several sources for Kodiak disc brakes, but am told that for the Lippert axles I have, there is no Kodiak brake solution. Even if I go to a 7000 lb axle there is no solution. There is perhaps a solution with an 8000 lb rated axle, but I haven't yet found a source for it, nor do I fully understand the consequences of moving to a 7000 or 8000 axle, such as new u-bolts, brackets, springs, frame modifications, etc.

The reason for no Kodiak solution is that the current axles use 9/16 in. studs but with undersized bearings compared with the Kodiak 6000 or 7000 brake options. So none of their rotor/hubs will fit on the Lippert axle. I found a 7000 axle/brake asm. but it is only for 1/2 in. studs. To get the 9/16 studs, I would have to go to a 8000 lb axle with Kodiak's part number HRCM-133-7-9 which is rated at 7000 lb. but needs an 8000 lb. axle because of the bearing size required.

I have looked at Lipperts disc brake parts, but they appear to be much more expensive and again I can't seem to get any feedback from Lippert on details.

I have talked with a few installation shops and one mentioned they do not install Kodiak parts any more due to too many piston seal failures. But they also had no other solutions to suggest.

I would appreciate any ideas, directions, or sources to consider on how to improve the brakes. I am concerned to take the trailer anywhere in the current brake state. In fact it has basically been sitting for months (during prime camping season) until I can get the brake problem resolved. Here are the numbers on the brake label, if that helps. (any one know how to decode these numbers?)

 

[cookie]

I don't know where you got your information from, but what you need to do is call Kodiak.
I just did the conversion on my 7k Lippert axles. The 8k part of the story is that you need to use an 8k outer bearing.
The stud size is 9/16, and that is determined by what you order.
Again, call Kodiak and tell them what you have and they will tell you what you need.
Oh, the hardest part of the job was running the brake lines.
In the next week or so I plan to have a video of my project posted.

Peace
Dave

 

[RAHanock]

Thanks Dave! I will do that tomorrow.

I talked with Southwestwheel.com, Spectrac.com, and tried Lippert via two e-mail addresses and a phone call. Southwest in Dallas seemed to be knowledgeable, but said there was no part number from Kodiak for my 6K axles.

 

[porthole]

Try Kodiak's web site, skip all teh middle man mis-information

You could also try calling or writing MOR/ryde, they are experts at disc brake installations.

http://www.kodiaktrailer.com/

http://www.morryde.com/contact-us.html

 

[jnbhobe]

By all means follow Dave and Duanes advice!! Gary Wheeler from Mor-Ryde told me they would sell all parts to do the conversion for $1800 at Goshen. Call Kodiak for sure they know what is needed. And as Dave said running the lines is the hard part.

 

[davidg]

I have the Lippert 6000# axles 8-9/16 studs and got all my parts from Mor/ryde, call Gary Wheeler at (574) 293-1581 Ext 222
Cell (574) 370-9135
You are looking at close to $2000. with the freight.
David

 

[MC9]

I guess I don't understand. I had to make a panic stop on an X-way ramp and I smoked out the people behind me. There may be other issues.

 

[RAHanock]

Disc brakes update...

I called Kodiak the next day and talked with Keith and he told me that Kodiak did make an asm. that would fit my application. (Their P/N 2/HRCM-133-7-9-E). He asked me to call Mike at southwestwheel.com. Mike indicated that they didn't carry that part, but could help. I'm still waiting for a quote. If I don't hear today, I'll call Mor/ryde for a quote.

As for other issues being a problem. It have checked out the integrated brake controller at the dealer and with pulling another, though lighter, trailer. I can easily skid the other trailer tires at any speed by adjusting the controller gain. I also called and talked with the technician that adjusted the Sundance brakes in June. He said there was no grease issue, etc., but that the brake pads need to be adjusted that they were "glazed", indicated they had gotten hot. But that was exactly what Lippert said was needed to "burnish" the pads...!

Some of you have mentioned the concern on mounting the actuator and routing the brake lines for the new disc brakes. I would appreciate any and all advice and help in this regard. Private e-mails may be best for this communication.

I appreciate everyone's help and ideas.

Thanks,

 

[SouthernNights]

This is very interesting. I think I have the same setup that you do.

This past winter I wanted to convert to disc brakes. Ordered everything from Southwest wheel. In fact, I think Mike is the one I was talking with also. When I received the parts, the bearings were right but the hub had 1/2" studs. After checking his (Mike) notes, he saw where I had told him 9/16" wheel studs.
He called Kodiak for a solution. Kodiak told him that they had run into this once before. To make it work required an adapter plate for the caliper mounting bracket and a change to the bearings along with a different hub with 9/16" studs. Bearings would still work on the #42 spindle but the adapter spaced everything out a 1/4" and the outer bearing would actually run a 1/4" off the machined surface of the spindle. In other words, everything was moved outboard by a 1/4". They did say this was the solution for the time before that they had run into this.

I decided to ship everything back to Southwest wheel and wait to see what happened. I just did not want my outer bearing running a 1/4" outboard of the machined surface of the spindle.I never got around to calling Mor Ryde.

I googled the part number they gave you and here is what came up.

http://www.trailerpartsstore.com/14260-Kodiak-2/RCM-133-7-9-E.html

http://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Brakes/Kodiak/K2HR79E.html

http://waymires.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=179_187_189&products_id=1082

The last address from waymires says they added this part number to the their catalog on May 13th so now maybe they have an actually kit made for this setup.

Mike from Southwest Wheel did tell me that Lippert is considered a "maverick" in the axle business because they have only been in the axle for 5 or 6 years as compared to Dexter I suppose who has been in it for a long time. I don't think he meant anything derogatory by it.

The pricing on this kit seems to be in line with the other kits. One thing I really liked about the parts I had received from Southwest wheel is they discard the bearings from Kodiak and supply Timken bearings and C/R seals with their kit.
If this is in fact the fix for the 9/16" studs on 6k axles, I may have to call Mike again. They were very professional and very apologetic over not being able to offer a kit that didn't require adapters to make it work.

 

[grizzlygiant]

I fail to see the need for disc brakes. My Sundance and my Big Horn before that both had OEM brakes which I could lock up easily if the controller setting was so programed.

 

[RAHanock]

Gary,
I would love to have my current brakes lock up. I can do this at about 1 mph on gravel. I'm not sure what to do to get them fixed. I have had several trailers with drum brakes and could easily lock them up at most any speed. But this Sundance does not even come close to this. I am wondering if the magnets are weaker for some reason. What would you suggest I do? I can't seem to get any response from Heartland or Lippert to help fix this problem. And again, how do I ensure it doesn't get into the same state in the future?

The only thing I can think of is to replace the shoes. That will cost me over $300 and if it doesn't help, I will have spent over $600 (including the adjustment) for nothing and will be right where I am now - looking at disc brakes.

Thanks,

 

[SouthernNights]

There are a couple of things that you could do to help-if you haven't done them already.

1) As long as the shoes aren't impregnated with grease, you could lightly score them with sand paper to remove any glazing.

2) Make sure your drums are round. Sounds strange but it is not uncommon. If they aren't round, you could either turn them or replace them.

3) Check the magnet and make sure you are getting the proper volts/amps to them. And while you are at it you could replace the brake wire starting at the pigtail all the way to the backing plate with a 10 gauge wire. This does help quite a bit. Make sure you solder the magnet wire and the new brake wire together and then put heat shrink on it. Do not use butt connectors.

4)Make sure there is no binding in the magnet arm when it begins to apply pressure to the shoes.

There are other things but these are few of the basics-especially the not so round drums

 

[grizzlygiant]

Be sure you are getting full voltage to the magnets. Under-gage (too small) wire any place in the circuit from the battery to the magnets and/or poor connections (inclufing the plug connection to your truck) will cause voltage drop wnen the brakes are applied. The magnets depend on sufficient current to activate and current is provided by adequate voltage applied TO THE MAGNETS. You and a helper need to check the voltage @ the magnets when you apply the brakes (you do this in a parked condition). If the voltage drops as brakes are applied for 10 seconds then you may have a problem with the controller. If you canot get a full 12 volts with the controller @ max then you have a controller problem. GOOD LUCK and let us know what you find.

 

[RAHanock]

Gary and Larry, Thanks for your ideas. Aren't your suggested inspections and modifications something that Heartland and Lippert would (or should) own? It is still under warranty.
Thanks,

 

[grizzlygiant]

Reed--Warranty should apply if your problem is in the camper. Your problem may be in the truck connection, truck wiring, or the controller--- none of which would be warranty work. If you are capable it would probably be a LOT quicker to do the work yourself (and you would then know that it was done properly). Waranty work, think time.

 

[RAHanock]

I appreciate all of your input and advice. Here are the results of this issue with the brakes. First to recap the situation.

1. The brakes were weak from the beginning on this new Sundance.
2. I did all that was asked by Heartland and Lippert. (check controller, burnish, adjust, burnish, wait for a decision from Lippert, etc.)
3. I don't feel I had much support from Heartland and Lippert on understanding and resolving the problem. (Lippert would not return calls or e-mails)
4. I had spent money and 4 months of no use of the trailer to get this problem resolved.
5. The shop that did the brake adjustment said that they removed all of the drums, inspected, adjusted the brakes, and re-lubed the bearings. They said there was no grease on the brake surfaces.
6. I decided that rather than spend more money with no assurance the brakes would improve, I would swap the drums for disc brakes. (those in the forum always reported positive results)

When the drum brakes were removed as part of the swap, the problem was found as to why there were no brakes. Three of the four drums had grease on the magnet and brake surfaces. Some very extensively. The decision was made to continue with the swap to disc brakes.

So what happened? Was there grease on the drum surfaces from the beginning? My opinion is yes. Was their grease on the drums when the shop inspected and adjusted the brakes and they weren't honest in what they had found and done? My opinion is yes.

How are the new disc brakes? Great! They work very well compared to the drums. I am disappointed in what happened and the time and expense that it was to resolve the problem. The Sundance was pretty much idle for several months during camping season because of this problem. And now the 1 year warranty has expired on any other issues that might have been discovered during use because of the brake problem.

If I were to do this all over again, I would have gone to the local Heartland dealer immediately about the brakes and had them ensure they worked properly. Looking back, I can see that I was influenced by some information in this forum and elsewhere. For example, I have read at least once, and sometimes more, the forum entries regarding brake problems. In each case, there was no resolution on the problem UNTIL the brakes were swapped for disc or for some other brand of drum brakes. There is no entry that I found (I could have missed it...) where the factory brakes that had problems were resolved without replacement of parts for something other than those from the factory.

Again, I appreciate the help and advice from all in this particular forum entry and from all of the other forum entries. Thank you.

 

[jmgratz]

Reed, I don't know what you are asking as your warranty has expired and it sounds to me like you were duped (ripped off) by the shop that inspected your original brakes. It has always amazed me that the trailers leaving the factory don't have the brakes properly adjusted. Maybe they are and need to be readjusted by the dealer before they are sold. But whatever it is we do hear about many that have problems. It seems part of the problem is whoever greases the bearings overgrease them which causes problems. Glad to hear you have the brake issue resolved and can now get on with the camping.

 

[JonV]

I'm left wondering why Heartland and others don't use disk brakes on all of their trailers over 10,000lb (just for a number) GVWR. There's a reason drum brakes had pretty much gone the way of the dodo bird, on other vehicles.

 

[jmgratz]

I'm left wondering why Heartland and others don't use disk brakes on all of their trailers over 10,000lb (just for a number) GVWR. There's a reason drum brakes had pretty much gone the way of the dodo bird, on other vehicles.

There is a very simple answer to your statement. Money. If you look at other brands that cost more such as the DRV Mobile and Elite Suites they come standard with disc brakes and 17" H rated tires. The old saying...you get what you pay for is true. Mind you I am not knocking Heartland just making a simple statement.

 

[caissiel]

Transport trucks do not have disc brakes on trailers.

I would love to have drum brakes on the rear of my F250. I cannot keep pads on the rear and ruined 3 discs and one caliper already due to pads falling off, and not to mention the close calls when they fall off, and they come off when the brakes are coming hard, so I have been changing them every year. And at the begining they were OEM's installed by Ford and both side failed.

The problem with trailer drum brakes is to much greasing and improper greasing done at the service department and dealers. Mine can drag the wheels anytime and with previous experience the linings last forever on a trailers. I cannot see spending the cash people do to replace parts due to shaddy services available at $80 per hr.

When my unit was new I had grease in all 4 wheels and everytime I put the brakes on the truck the wheels would drag, found out that the magnets were wet with grease and the linings were dry. And draging the wheels realy will not brake that well as it acts like on ice onces the wheel will loose traction so I feel the advantage is not to have the wheels drag, thats why we needed antilock brakes once we started using disc brakes. More braking to me is not the answer, learning to drive properly with the load in mind is more important.

P.S. Trailer brakes act more like rear brakes on a car or truck, not like the front. There is no additional weight added when braking most of the weight gets shifted to the TV as the momemtum acted by the decelaration of the unit, and the truck brakes get all the pressure anyway.