From a dream to a nightmare: One buyer's story

[G_Hage]

NOTE: I would hope that the moderators and/or administrators of this forum choose not to pull this thread as one might construe that action as an attempt to hide to truth:

Back in 2006 Landmark Mount Rushmore Suite Pin #6197 was built at the Heartland factory and shipped to a dealers lot in Texas. At the time it was built, it had been fitted with single pane windows.

In 2007 a couple came along preparing to begin their golden years of retirement full timing in an RV and bought #6197. It was shipped back to Heartland where the windows were removed and replaced with double pane windows throughout the unit. Once that and a few other upgrades were completed, the happy new owners took delivery of their brand new dream RV from their dealer in Knoxville, TN. Like most new RVs, there would be the typical bugs along the way to have worked out with the factory/dealership.

Then one day in 2009 while traveling from Van Horn to their destination, the LM began riding at least 3 3/4" lower on the street side of the Fiver. They would learn in Las Cruces that this was due to a catastrophic failure of the axles and suspension [see "Stuck In Las Cruces" thread]. Short version of a long story that interestingly enough came to an abrupt end in the thread, replacement axles etc. were shipped to Las Cruces and installed to enable the Fiver to be hauled as safely as possible back to Heartland where it would undergo major structural and cosmetic repairs.

Slide rooms were majorly thrown out of alignment, stress cracking occurred not only in the fiberglass exterior at the upper corners of the slide openings, but also in the decorative wallboard inside and granite counter top of the kitchen base cabinet. All windows and slides had to be removed, windows taken out, roof caps and the rubber roofing along the edges remove, front and rear caps removed, while 6197 was rebuilt. Before leaving Hearland the owner had 8000lb MorRide IS with hydraulic disc brakes installed in hopes of preventing a failure such as this from occurring again. It is my understanding that there were no significant issues related to this failure after the repairs, or that is at least what was believed.

January, 2013, after battling for more than a year with RV lenders for an RV loan (they didn't like the fact that I did not need or use personal credit lines in the past and that my credit history was business loans only) I was able to convince one bank to give us a chance. We found LM #6197 at America Choice RV and purchased it. When asked, they told us they had purchased it at auction and therefore knew nothing about it's past history. They also noted all owners manual etc. were missing from the unit when they were at auction buying the unit. I am compelled to believe that they had no knowledge of what I would soon learn after the purchase.

Through relentless research and searching, I was able to find the original owner and was horrified to learn of it's history. This was to be our dream RV for the beginnings of our full time RV life. What have we just bought we asked ourselves. This was to be our dream RV and was our one shot with the lenders to finance one before we retire our trucking business and go on a limited income like so many other retired folks.

I called Heartland to learn more about the history of this Fiver and get a detailed account of what repairs had to be done to make this unit somewhat road worthy again in lieu of deeming it as salvage and forced to buy it back from the original owners. Instead of being able to provide me with such information, I'm told we have no such information, and when I press harder I finally am told the only documentation regarding this work is that it had been authorized to be returned for needed repairs of which none are detailed. Are you kidding me? A unit that based on the actual manufacturers date is only seven years old now and there are little to no records on file. Then the rebuild was only done four years ago. Interesting!

As many of you know I have complained about the bedroom slide since we bought this unit and how it leans in at the top when fully extended. Last week while my RV repair tech attempted to open up the slides on the unit (We are away on our run and close the unit up while on the road) the bottom of the bedroom slide fell completely out due to rot that has been hidden for years. He has determined the slide windows were not properly sealed when the double pane replacements were installed back in 2007 and have been slowly leaking ever since. Now we are faced with a total slide box replacement which will cost us thousands of dollars as extended warranty does not cover such failures. Let me note that learning of how the bedroom slide is constructed, it is of poor engineering at best.

In trying to help us with a disastrous and costly repair we are not in a position to fund financially at this time, my repair tech calls upon Heartland for assistance in anyway, like provide a new slide box, pay to ship it to Florida, pay labor to install, or any of the above. Flatly turned down! Then he calls upon Heartland asking for architectural or schematic drawings of the box so that he can build a new one or have it built at my cost. He is told there are no drawings and that Heartland would need the measurements etc. from him to even be able to build the box for us. Really?

So we are left with having to disassemble the box, get exact measurements, cut the new pieces to build the replacement box and install it, pull all of the other windows out of the unit to check and insure that they were properly installed and sealed and no hidden leakage as in the bedroom slide has occurred and seal properly seal and replace them. All at our cost. We did not buy a fixer upper RV but it would seem that is what we have ended up with.

This unit was the original owners nightmare and the saga continues, as it has become ours! If I were addressing a letter to Heartland today, I would have to say "I would have to think long and hard before investing a dime in a new or used product of theirs based on our experience thus far. And I would also have to question the fact that they did not do the right thing and have this unit deemed as a "Salvageable" on the title so that no unsuspecting buyer like me or my dealer for my unit would unknowingly purchase a unit that had been wrecked and rebuilt.

We feel that we are now stuck with a wreck that we cannot in good conscious trade or sell out right without disclosing the knowledge of its past as we now know for legal reasons.

 

[TandT]

I'm curious as to why you would expect HL to help fund repairs on a USED, two owner, 7 year old rig?

When I bought my rig NEW in 2011, I understood that I had a 1 year warranty and I was fine with that.

These rigs do not come with a lifetime guarantee.

IF in fact, you do have any legitimate complaint, it should be with the previous owner, or whomever sold you the rig, not HL. JMHO Trace

 

[danemayer]

Hi G_Hage,

I think I can speak for all the moderators that we all feel badly that you're facing expensive repairs and understand that you want to vent about it.

You've managed to dig up quite a bit of the history on this 7 year old trailer; much more than most purchasers of a used trailer would find. And it's natural to try to "connect the dots" and draw a straight line from the first problem to the latest.

But 7 years is a long time in trailer years and if you've followed posts on this forum, you'll know that water leak issues are difficult to run to ground. Water travels all over the place and it may not be coming from right next to the area that's damaged. Rotting wood in a slideout floor could be from windows, or from other areas.

When you get this repair done, I'd suggest you get some leak testing done. Maybe your service tech is correct that the damage was caused by leaks at the windows. But I imagine you'd be pretty upset if he turned out to be wrong and you went through the same thing 2 years from now.

You might want to check out this service.

 

[G_Hage]

I'm curious as to why you would expect HL to help fund the repairs on a USED, two owner, 7 year old rig?

When I bought my rig NEW in 2011, I understood that I had a 1 year warranty and I was fine with that.

These rigs do not come with a lifetime guarantee.

IF you have any legitimate complaint, it should be with the previous owner, or whoever sold you the rig, not HL. JMHO Trace

That was the decision of the owner of the Rv repair company we use, not mine as he felt under the circumstances of a faulty installation of these windows by them they may be willing to take some responsibility in helping with the repairs since it was most likely their workmanship that caused the damage. I'm just the poor owner caught in the middle of this nightmare.

 

[wino2]

Sorry about your problems but your ISSUES are with your dealer you bought it from and no one else. Didn't they inspect the unit before they put it on the lot for sale. Sounds like your dealer did not do a good job checking to make sure everything worked properly. If you have had problems with the slide from day one, shouldn't they have found it when they put it on their lot, or for that matter when you took delivery. Heartland had nothing to do with this purchase, or the condition of the trailer when you purchased it and to say you would not buy a new Heartland product is a little harsh. Warranties are only for so long and that is it. Did your dealer give you any warranty when you bought. Did you buy an extended warranty. As far as putting "SALVAGE" on the title it is not Heartlands responsiblity. Once again I am truly sorry for your problems but I think you are taking it out on the wrong Company.

 

[Bob&Patty]

I agree with other posters. If you buy a 7 year old car and a year later all the wheels fell off. Who's fault is that. You have no idea how the original own treated the coach and you have no idea if HL installed the windows or subbed it out. There has been a "noted" repair for slide floor delamination posted on this forum for years now and the cure. I'm afraid that your situation falls under the "buyer beware". For the last "7" years this trailer could have seen 100K miles of use and abuse. I doubt if the original owner would tell you that he abused it. Did the "O" owner ever have all the claulking checked and repaired every year? I'm sorry that your coach is having problems....but I think your beating a dead horse expecting HL to repair a 7 years old coach. The original warranty was 1 YEAR and no warranty to the second owner.

BTW, if only the floor fell out.....why does it need a whole new slide box?

 

[Mizmary]

I'm sorry for your troubles. One of the things we considered when purchasing a unit was that we didn't know the history. Heck, we were a little uncomfortable with how our rig was treated by the dealer before we bought it. With all of that in mind, and knowing our unit will depreciate some, we chose to purchase new. Even if we were to purchase used we probably would not have purchased a unit that was 7 years old, because there is no way we could expect help from the manufacturer with a unit of that age, so ALL of the repair costs would fall on us. Even if we had decided to purchase and older unit we probably would have purchased a warranty for the unit (we bought the extended one for our brand new unit) to help defray some of the cost. When we bought our first unit it was previously owned. It had its issues and we understood that they were ours to deal with.

There is no way of knowing how the unit was treated at the auction house, or during transit. The blame does not lie on the original owners. (Who you are claiming to "protect" by not posting their names, but you link to a post by them anyway, so you may as well have just called them out.) They decided to trade up for a reason, and they may have been unaware of all of the issues with the unit. It is the dealer's and your responsibility to inspect the unit before taking possession. Just as you have a house inspected before you buy it - or test drive a used car over to a trusted mechanic.

The issues are also not the fault of Heartland, as they are responsible for manufacturing defects, and solely for that. All of those should have been found and fixed before you purchased the unit. I understand your disappointment and know that sinking feeling of "what did we just buy." The blame for the troubles doesn't lie with any one person, but the financial responsibility of fixing them does, which is the stinky part of the the gamble you take when you buy used and don't buy the extended warranty.

 

[Rickhansen]

G_Hage (Mr. and Mrs.),
I feel badly for you in this unfortunate situation.

 

[codycarver]

Did the "O" owner ever have all the claulking checked and repaired every year?

Or inspect the shackles, springs, brakes, and axles??

Having put somewhere in the 20,000 mile range on our rig in the last three years on the US road systems it seems only prudent to do a visual inspection after every day of driving and a compete inspection annually. But that's just me.

We love our Big horn. It has been virtually trouble free but I have kept up on the mateinance.

 

[Kbvols]

G_Hage,

No doubt this situation stinks and the rig seems to have quite a crappy history. Unfortunately as many have stated buying used can be a crap shoot...buying new can be at times also. A rule of thumb I have used is to plan on an expense of approx half of what I saved in purchase price from new price to used price. I either set the money aside or settle for a less expensive new purchase to stay within my target price. I say this for you to perhaps look at what you spent on your rig vs new then factor in the cost to complete the repair and you still may be money ahead. May just help ease the pain some.

 

[jbbdc]

I've worked on so many used rvs that were traded in that were in such sad shape it made me wonder how the dealership was ever going to resell them. Every single one sold and usually within a month. The market for used rvs always seems to be hot. I'm convinced there's a buyer for everything.

If you can afford to get out from under this rv, I would honestly advertise it as something that needs a bit of work, price it accordingly, and let a handy person take it off your hands.

 

[kowAlski631]

We feel your pain. But, if you purchased a car whose oil had only seldom been changed or a house whose appliances had never been serviced would you blame the manufacturer or the builder or the previous owners? Assets are only as good as they are maintained.

If you need to blame anyone, blame the prior owners or the dealer who sold this unit to you. The dealer should have spotted & either repaired or advised you of needed repairs unless the unit was sold "as is". We refuse to purchase anything "as is " since we believe it's code for "things are messed up & don't work & I want to get it out of my life".

 

[G_Hage]

I'm curious as to why you would expect HL to help fund the repairs on a USED, two owner, 7 year old rig?

When I bought my rig NEW in 2011, I understood that I had a 1 year warranty and I was fine with that.

These rigs do not come with a lifetime guarantee.

IF you have any legitimate complaint, it should be with the previous owner, or whoever sold you the rig, not HL. JMHO Trace

To finish my response as I was called away from the computer earlier to run up to Denver from Roswell today:

When one invest as in the case of our LM 70-80K when it is new they do not expect it to fall apart in two years or even seven. One should be able to reasonably expect around ten years use before the major issues like these begin to occur, or so one would hope. We were originally planning to purchase a top shelf unit such as Teton, Peterson, DRV, Newmar new and pay in the range of 115-135K. Had we done so I would have been sick to learn that problems such as our unit has experienced are not uncommon early on in an RVs life. So I ask, realistically what kind of life expectancy should a full timer expect from a Fiver before it falls apart?

I guess I've been spoiled by the manufacturer of the $80,000 custom sleeper on our truck. Even after the Two year warranty expired, they have always stepped up to the plate and correct issues related to poor engineering and problems that were QC issues from the build at their expense or at a reduced rate to us. Prior to building custom sleepers the manufactured RVs themselves.

As with our 250K custom built truck I know it did not come with a lifetime warranty, but it has been great to know the builder is willing to step up to the plate and help even on this seven year old truck.

 

[G_Hage]

Hi G_Hage,

When you get this repair done, I'd suggest you get some leak testing done. Maybe your service tech is correct that the damage was caused by leaks at the windows. But I imagine you'd be pretty upset if he turned out to be wrong and you went through the same thing 2 years from now.

You might want to check out this service.

This method is very similar to the one our custom sleeper manufacturer uses on our custom truck. We have it checked every 1-2 years and suspect seals redone. We have only had the LM since the end of Jan, 2013 but plan to have this testing done.

 

[kakampers]

These units will last as long as they are properly maintained...the slide floor did NOT rot out over night, or even over the last several years. It is obvious, to me at least, that whatever was leaking was left unattended for a long time! Most don't seem to understand that caulk and sealant fails due to constant exposure and must be replaced regularly.

I feel for your situation, but if you just bought your unit in January than it was not inspected too closely...a rotted slide floor would have been soft and fairly easy to spot. As others have stated your issue is with the dealer.

Glad the manufacturer of your custom sleeper has taken care of you, but I would be willing to bet they would not do so for a second owner, anymore than Heartland should be expected to.

 

[kakampers]

Double post..

 

[G_Hage]

Sorry about your problems but your ISSUES are with your dealer you bought it from and no one else. Didn't they inspect the unit before they put it on the lot for sale. Sounds like your dealer did not do a good job checking to make sure everything worked properly. If you have had problems with the slide from day one, shouldn't they have found it when they put it on their lot, or for that matter when you took delivery. Heartland had nothing to do with this purchase, or the condition of the trailer when you purchased it and to say you would not buy a new Heartland product is a little harsh. Warranties are only for so long and that is it. Did your dealer give you any warranty when you bought. Did you buy an extended warranty. As far as putting "SALVAGE" on the title it is not Heartlands responsiblity. Once again I am truly sorry for your problems but I think you are taking it out on the wrong Company.

I'm in no way taking it out on Heartland. I'm simply questioning some of their business practices such as not retaining records and drawings on units they've built at least for the average life expectancy of the product they build and sell. Not retaining records on extreme repairs done by them when related to catastrophic failures such as occurred with our unit originally [axle/suspension fail]

As for the original slide issue we complained about prior to taking delivery, our dealer's prep shop contacted Heartland as was informed that the inward lean at the top of the bedroom slide is normal and there is nothing to do to changed that. It wasn't bad enough in the beginning for me to walk away from the unit for the price we were purchasing it at. Everything else was checked and was working at the time of our walk thru prior to taking delivery. We purchased a five year XtraRide warranty at the time of the purchase and it has covered all issues except the rotted slide.

Keep in mind, there was no way of our dealer knowing the history of this unit as all documents which had been left in the Fiver by the prior owner had been removed prior to it going to auction. Plus there were no visible signs that this damage had occurred. As for the slide water damage, there were also no visible signs of leakage until the slide box floor broke loose from the walls the other day as the slide was extended.

I have already requested that Heartland build us a brand new unit exactly like our Mount Rushmore Suite to purchase. They replied they cannot build that floorplan anymore at this time. If they did, we would buy it in a heartbeat, but yes it would have to be leak checked and thoroughly gone over before we took delivery. As I said, I would have to think long and hard, but I never said that I would rule them out. Heartland Landmarks are a beautiful product that rivals the interiors and exteriors of the top shelf Fivers we originally intended to purchase.

 

[G_Hage]

I agree with other posters. If you buy a 7 year old car and a year later all the wheels fell off. Who's fault is that. You have no idea how the original own treated the coach and you have no idea if HL installed the windows or subbed it out. There has been a "noted" repair for slide floor delamination posted on this forum for years now and the cure. I'm afraid that your situation falls under the "buyer beware". For the last "7" years this trailer could have seen 100K miles of use and abuse. I doubt if the original owner would tell you that he abused it. Did the "O" owner ever have all the claulking checked and repaired every year? I'm sorry that your coach is having problems....but I think your beating a dead horse expecting HL to repair a 7 years old coach. The original warranty was 1 YEAR and no warranty to the second owner.

BTW, if only the floor fell out.....why does it need a whole new slide box?

Without having taken the slide completely out of the Fiver, it was originally thought by our repair service that the side walls were water damaged enough to the point of having to replace them and the floor. The more cost effective cure would have been to build a new box. But as we have gotten deeper into the demo, it appears that the side walls will be salvageable. Thank goodness!!!

In meeting the original owner and being a pretty good judge of character, plus seeing how they had taken care of this unit while in their possession (routinely checking caulking and replacing etc.) I feel confident this was not a unit that was neglected or abused. I think those on this forum that knew him would agree.

 

[Bob&Patty]

Sorry, I never met them. But you did say that "you would have to think long and hard about buying a HL product" in your 1st post. So moving on....get the tech that is repairing the slide to read the threads about "slide floor delamination". I'm sure you will find it using the search box. I'm still having a hard time with HL going to TX...picking up the coach...taking it back to Indiana...putting in windows and other things and taking it back the Tennessee. Something about that story just ain't right. I bet if the truth were known....thats the story the dealer told them. The cost just of trucking it would be more than its worth. Did the 1st owners verify that they saw this with their own eyes or just take to word of a dealer. It would have cheaper for the 1st owner to order a coach the way they wanted it and have it shipped to Tn. and it would have been a year newer. Just doesnt ring true to me.

 

[G_Hage]

I'm sorry for your troubles. One of the things we considered when purchasing a unit was that we didn't know the history. Heck, we were a little uncomfortable with how our rig was treated by the dealer before we bought it. With all of that in mind, and knowing our unit will depreciate some, we chose to purchase new. Even if we were to purchase used we probably would not have purchased a unit that was 7 years old, because there is no way we could expect help from the manufacturer with a unit of that age, so ALL of the repair costs would fall on us. Even if we had decided to purchase and older unit we probably would have purchased a warranty for the unit (we bought the extended one for our brand new unit) to help defray some of the cost. When we bought our first unit it was previously owned. It had its issues and we understood that they were ours to deal with.

There is no way of knowing how the unit was treated at the auction house, or during transit. The blame does not lie on the original owners. (Who you are claiming to "protect" by not posting their names, but you link to a post by them anyway, so you may as well have just called them out.) They decided to trade up for a reason, and they may have been unaware of all of the issues with the unit. It is the dealer's and your responsibility to inspect the unit before taking possession. Just as you have a house inspected before you buy it - or test drive a used car over to a trusted mechanic.

The issues are also not the fault of Heartland, as they are responsible for manufacturing defects, and solely for that. All of those should have been found and fixed before you purchased the unit. I understand your disappointment and know that sinking feeling of "what did we just buy." The blame for the troubles doesn't lie with any one person, but the financial responsibility of fixing them does, which is the stinky part of the the gamble you take when you buy used and don't buy the extended warranty.

You comments regarding buying new verses used echo our original plan when purchasing our Fiver. We wanted new so that we would know its history and how it had been treated from day one. But as I stated before, because the RV lenders are unwilling to consider one's excellent business credit loans history (loans up to $250K in good standing with the lender and business credit reports) we were forced to buy used. They did not like the fact that I could pay cash for my smaller expenses and purchases so only one was willing to go 50K or less. Then we thought that might not be a bad idea buying used and avoiding the drive off depreciation associated with these purchases (new). Yea, let someone else eat the depreciation. What I've learned is choose your poison my friend, depreciation or multiple repair cost. Enough of that.

When we bought this unit we thought it was only five years old, not seven. The sticker on the frame with the manufacture date had been painted over. Since it was a 2008 model, all assumed it was. My Bad!!! I may not have bought it if I had known it had actually been built two years prior and titled as a 2008 by Heartland.

You are correct Heartland is and should only be responsible for manufacture defects. I would surely think improperly sealed and installed windows at their factory would qualify under that clause. I have the documentation show they were in fact the installer.

As much research as one may do (over a year researching manufacturers and construction, reading post for over a year of owners experiences with their products, etc.) Unfortunately no matter how skilled in inspecting a unit as this, there are certain hidden things that get past the best of us because of the way they are hidden. I was an inspector/engineering tech for years prior to my current career.