Generator/Inverter needs

Perioman

Member
I just purchased a new 2015 Sundance 3600 qb. The dealer I purchased through was, unfortunately, very unhelpful in this area. Living in Colorado, some users are saying that the altitude will not allow proper AC start-up with daisy chained Honda or Yamaha 2000's. A step up from this might be the Honda EU3000is or the Yamaha EF3000iSEB (500w boost). I have read some threads that say there may even be issues with these kicking off some of the newer 13,500 BTU A/C units. I keep hearing something about a hard start capacitor which may lower my initial power-up draw. The above options would keep my investments near near my $2000 target price.

My final option is to consider the Yamaha EF4500iSE. This inverter should definitely cover my needs, but the unit is bigger, heavier (~200lbs), and a cost of around $3000. I deathly afraid of under-powering the coach, but I don't want to blow a bunch of money in a frivolous manner either. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
 

danemayer

Well-known member
Hi Perioman,

Congratulations on your new Sundance and welcome to the Heartland Owners Forum. This is a great place to get help on questions like yours and I know there are many Colorado owners who are active on the forum. You'll probably get some feedback shortly.

One thing that might be helpful would be to know what altitude you're talking about: 5,000 in Denver or 10,000 in Leadville?
 

hoefler

Well-known member
It is not the A/C's that have the problem, it is the generators. They have to have the carburetors adjusted for the altitude to run leaner as there is not as much oxygen available for proper fuel burn.
 

Perioman

Member
Sorry if I wasn't more detailed about my location in Colorado. I'm likely to stay near the Denver elevation (5,280 ft) or lower. I know that my boat loses 5% of its power output per 1000 ft gain above sea level, and I must assumes that most other combustion engines will do the same, including the generators.
It is very difficult for a newbie like me to make these calls due the multifactorial nature of considering proper powering for firing up an individual's AC unit, but some guidance off of personal experience is more helpful than pure theory.
 

brianharrison

Well-known member
The parallel 2000s are fine at 5000 ft to start and run your 13,500 BTU air conditioner. The 3000 will also run your AC. If there are other 120V loads at the same time, ie converter, coffee pot, electric water heater, microwave - neither will start your AC with the additional load.

I have a 15,000 BTU AC and I have started and ran it on both a 3000 and 2-2000s paralleled - Hondas at 6000ft elevation. The Yamahas are similar. I have heard some value priced inverter generators (Boily, Kipor, ?) may have less inrush capability. I suspect this is on the electrical generation side, not due to the combustion engine producing less power at higher elevations.

The hard start capacitor in the AC would be insurance, IMHO.

Hope this helps,
Brian
 

Perioman

Member
Well...I just got a surprise! I got my rear up on the 5th wheel and learned that the AC is a Dometic Brisk-II, rated at 15,000 BTU, RLA @ 13.2, LRA @ 70. The sales sheet said I had a 13,500 BTU. That doesn't seem like a big increase to a layman like me, but the more I read the more I understand that it can be an issue with initial starting requirements. Any further input? They advise a 3500w genny as a minimum. I know brianharrison kicked off his 15,000 BTU with the 3000w Honda, but.... What kills me is that the dealer had no idea that it was a 15,000 BTU. I have a feeling the manufacturer (Heartland) made the upgrade on the 2015 models versus the 2014 that we saw at the show. Any thoughts?
 

evolvingpowercat

Well-known member
There is also a 13,500 version of the Brisk II, which is what I upgraded to on my RV last year. If you have not already done so, I suggest you pull the top cover and look at the identification plate as the interior stuff looks the same on both. If it turns out to be 13,500, I use the Yamaha EF2400iSHC generator with the Brisk II and it has always started my 13,500 Brisk II even at Estes Park at 7,800 feet altitude.

The EF2400iSHC is the smallest single generator that is designed to start 13,500 BTU RV air conditioners, that is quiet operation. Its dry weight is 75 lbs. which I find I can handle myself. If you don't feel comfortable handling that weight generator then I suggest going the two daisy chained ligher and smaller generator route.

If you go with two quality 2000 watt maximum output generators from Honda or Yamaha configured for parallel operation, I think you will be OK starting a 15K AC even at 7,500 ft. altitude.

Randy
 

Stinger381

Well-known member
I have the Sundance 3300 RLB and mine came with the Carrier 15,000 BTU unit. I am sure yours was equipped with a 15,000 BTU unit too. I have the Honda EU3000 for a genny and I could not start my AC unit down here in Alabama at almost sea level. Every time I would try to start the AC it would trip the breaker on the generator. I added a hard start capacitor kit to my AC Unit and now I have no worries. It will start every time with the genny. Plus I don't really notice the compressor kicking on and off as the whole starting process is easier on the AC unit. It wasn't all that hard to wire it up either. I used a Coleman kit since Carrier stuff isn't easy to find and I made it work.
 

Jim.Allison

Well-known member
Get what goes in it and be done with it (onan LP 5500). You will add resale, and will get use out of it at the same time. Add a solar system with inverter/charger with pass through. The inverter will kick on to assist the generator if necessary, in this manner the inverter will make up for any under voltage occurring while generator is winding up.
 

Bohemian

Well-known member
If you are always going to be plugged in and are never concerned about power outages then a generator is useless.If you travel and stop along the way without power, a generator can be a great asset.
 

porthole

Retired
Get what goes in it and be done with it (onan LP 5500). You will add resale, and will get use out of it at the same time. Add a solar system with inverter/charger with pass through. The inverter will kick on to assist the generator if necessary, in this manner the inverter will make up for any under voltage occurring while generator is winding up.


That takes a simple single genny purchase at $1000- $2000 and bumps it right up towards 10K if he can't do the work himself.
 

Jim.Allison

Well-known member
If he is gen prepped he is looking at 4K if he installs himself. Get internet quote, no tax no freight. $4K no more. If not Gen prepped add another $300. That is for a 50 amp unit. If he can get by with a smaller generator then that is money saved. I have no idea where the $10K could come from unless you are having it installed by a thief. And he was talking about 2 generators in parallel not one. Additionally he must also consider emissions standards for gasoline operated generators in RVs.
That takes a simple single genny purchase at $1000- $2000 and bumps it right up towards 10K if he can't do the work himself.
 
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porthole

Retired
If he is gen prepped he is looking at 4K if he installs himself. Get internet quote, no tax no freight. $4K no more. If not Gen prepped add another $300. That is for a 50 amp unit. If he can get buy with a smaller generator then that is money saved. I have no idea where the $10K could come from unless you are having it installed by a thief. And he was talking about 2 generators in parallel not one. Additionally he must also consider emissions standards for gasoline operated generators in RVs.

(onan LP 5500)
Add a solar system
with inverter/charger with pass through

Gen - $4000 + ancillary installation parts
Inverter $1500-$3000 + ancillary installation parts
Solar panels $300 +++ depending on the size, along with ancillary installation parts.
I could see where installation of these items could easily exceed $1000 in labor. RV labor rates in our area are $125 per hour. So a grand will only get you 8 hours of work.

The "pass through" inverter does not add current to supplement the genny or line voltage.
Pass through is simply that - when not on line the inverter - inverts, when on line shore power "passes through"

What you are referring to is a separate feature on the better, higher end inverters. And requires additional controls.


To the OP - the Honda 3000is weighs about 135 pounds dry, add the weight of 3.5 gallons to that.
Mine will run my 15K AC, but, I leave the AC run with the fan on so at startup up then fan is already running when the compressor kicks in.
And on the hot days the genny will start to balk - as heat increases, efficiency decreases. This can usually be overcome by running the Honda with the economy mode turned off.
 

scottyb

Well-known member
The "pass through" inverter does not add current to supplement the genny or line voltage.
Pass through is simply that - when not on line the inverter - inverts, when on line shore power "passes through"

What you are referring to is a separate feature on the better, higher end inverters. And requires additional controls

I believe the inverters that supplement the AC with the batteries are referred to as Hybrids like the Magnum MSE Series.
 

Ladiver

Well-known member
I am having a Magnum Hybrid inverter installed, as I type this. The cost for all the labor on the inverter, batteries, battery monitor, auto gen start and advanced remote was quoted at just over $1000. To me it is worth is, since I have neither the time nor the electrical skills. I am OK with doing many repairs myself, but something that can burn up my rig...leave that to the pros! They are also going to address the limitation of the 3 a/c's in my unit. I would like the option of using any 2 of the 3 at any time. With the hybrid inverter, I suppose I could use all three if I had shore/gen power and battery power available.

I am really looking forward to being able to be shore/gen free for several days. We are not getting solar yet, but the whole package has solar as the end result. The only thing left to install is the solar panels and a single component to hook solar into the inverter/charger.
 

Jim.Allison

Well-known member
Mine does, while my whole rig is running on generator power (shore power) and lets say that both ACs are operating and I have my compressor on while airing up my tires or my wife is using the microwave or hair dryer. When demand from one of the appliances is put on the generator the mechanical throttle must respond to the demand which takes time. If you are monitoring your AC power you can watch it as it descends from 120v to 110v or even 105v. But if you have both legs of your generator or shore power routed into the inverter (Xantrex Freedom 3012) it will attempt to balance the system, it will also supplement the appliances within in a fraction of a second with inverted DC electricity until the mechanical throttle and resulting combustion of the generator is able to provide the necessary current. My whole system is listed below. The reason I said passthrough is because you must have passthrough to have such an assist system. But I would venture a guess that inverters that have pass through wiring will also have this assist feature. And while it is true that there are additional controls, I operate mine mainly from the main control. The system is automatic and sometimes gets in the way of my solar charging in that I don't want to lose battery power that takes so much sun and or LP to make. I find myself turning it off when not needed.

As far as the pricing is concerned, you are correct if he were to install a complete system with solar all at one time. But at the moment he is talking about a generator only for use with his current system. he can do this for $3794 or less, and he might get lucky and find a new one on craigslist. It is true that if he is not gen prepped, he will have to get a transfer switch, $125, a few feet of wire and a junction box. $3925 MAX to this point. He probably needs a transfer switch to do what he is thinking of doing right now, or perhaps he is using his power cord and doing without a transfer switch. He can install a plug right beside this genset and plug in anyway without a transfer switch so hes back to $3794 what would you rather have a 4500 watt yamaha for $3200 + tax or a LP500 for $3794.

Next step is a set of REAL deep cycle batts, not those Marine/RV starting batts. Trojan T1275, 2 @ $250 = $500. These are 8 year batteries at least if not 10 year. The inverter i guess he already owns, but a real inverter/with 4 step charger unit $1400, sub panel with fuses $100, future purchase, but will also require battery cables $200 to $400 and a few fuses, switches $100, a solar charger best $200, ancillary parts $25, $400 to $800 in solar panels.

If he does this work over 2 years he will never notice it. And as far a money is concerned (on the generator) the difference between 2K to 3k and $3794 is small potatoes, The philosophy is that he will always get his money out of the generator and he will be using it to his benefit all that time. A fully installed generator in an RV is worth more than 4k to a potential buyer. he buys it for $3794 its worth at least 6k as soon as he puts it in. http://www.norwall.com

Gen - $4000 + ancillary installation parts
Inverter $1500-$3000 + ancillary installation parts
Solar panels $300 +++ depending on the size, along with ancillary installation parts.
I could see where installation of these items could easily exceed $1000 in labor. RV labor rates in our area are $125 per hour. So a grand will only get you 8 hours of work.

The "pass through" inverter does not add current to supplement the genny or line voltage.
Pass through is simply that - when not on line the inverter - inverts, when on line shore power "passes through"

What you are referring to is a separate feature on the better, higher end inverters. And requires additional controls.


To the OP - the Honda 3000is weighs about 135 pounds dry, add the weight of 3.5 gallons to that.
Mine will run my 15K AC, but, I leave the AC run with the fan on so at startup up then fan is already running when the compressor kicks in.
And on the hot days the genny will start to balk - as heat increases, efficiency decreases. This can usually be overcome by running the Honda with the economy mode turned off.
 
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Jim.Allison

Well-known member
I think you are being modest, the work is probably well within your ability, but a $1000 bucks is a good price and if I did not have so much fun installing mine I might have considered paying. As far as burning the rig down, I can tell you that I found a few things to correct while I was in there, I do not fear any of my work and will put it up against any dealer installer or even the guys that wired my rig on the assembly line.

But you really have a nice rig, and when you get ready for your panels, I don't think you can beat these panels....http://www.amazon.com/UniSolar-PVL-144-Laminate-Amorphous-Solar/dp/B003ZZLW68
I am having a Magnum Hybrid inverter installed, as I type this. The cost for all the labor on the inverter, batteries, battery monitor, auto gen start and advanced remote was quoted at just over $1000. To me it is worth is, since I have neither the time nor the electrical skills. I am OK with doing many repairs myself, but something that can burn up my rig...leave that to the pros! They are also going to address the limitation of the 3 a/c's in my unit. I would like the option of using any 2 of the 3 at any time. With the hybrid inverter, I suppose I could use all three if I had shore/gen power and battery power available.

I am really looking forward to being able to be shore/gen free for several days. We are not getting solar yet, but the whole package has solar as the end result. The only thing left to install is the solar panels and a single component to hook solar into the inverter/charger.
 

Jim.Allison

Well-known member
If you have not done this already, you should look at the onan LP5500 at this site. It appears that you can get it delivered to your house for less than $3729.84. It sure beats mickey mousing around with the little gensets.

http://www.norwall.com/

I just purchased a new 2015 Sundance 3600 qb. The dealer I purchased through was, unfortunately, very unhelpful in this area. Living in Colorado, some users are saying that the altitude will not allow proper AC start-up with daisy chained Honda or Yamaha 2000's. A step up from this might be the Honda EU3000is or the Yamaha EF3000iSEB (500w boost). I have read some threads that say there may even be issues with these kicking off some of the newer 13,500 BTU A/C units. I keep hearing something about a hard start capacitor which may lower my initial power-up draw. The above options would keep my investments near near my $2000 target price.

My final option is to consider the Yamaha EF4500iSE. This inverter should definitely cover my needs, but the unit is bigger, heavier (~200lbs), and a cost of around $3000. I deathly afraid of under-powering the coach, but I don't want to blow a bunch of money in a frivolous manner either. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
 

porthole

Retired
I believe the inverters that supplement the AC with the batteries are referred to as Hybrids like the Magnum MSE Series.

The supplemental part is "load sharing".

And the Magnum's are really good with their design. Using whatever combination of AC line, AC generator, DC battery DC supplement eg wind or solar to give you the AC power you need
 

Perioman

Member
UPDATE: I tried a neighbor's Yamaha 3000w genny with the boost technology, but the 15,000 BTU Dometic Brisk II would not kick-off at altitude. Unfortunately, I didn't see John McCall's reply regarding the hard-start capacitor in time. I went with the Yamaha 4500w genny. This thing is big! ~230lbs with a full gas tank. Unbelievably quite for a large generator. Obviously, I have no problems kicking off the generator. The size difference between the 3000 and 4500 is very substantial, almost laughable. If the hard start capacitor is that easy to install, I might just put one in and see if the 3000w Yamaha will kick it on. I love Denver, but living at altitude has its drawbacks.

Regarding the LP generator install: I don't have a dedicated compartment in the Sundance 3600. The tech says it's a "big deal" to cut one in and build a housing. That sounds like a pain. Perhaps I'll look for a future unit with a compartment built in.
 
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