LM Grand Canyon vs BC 3450TS weights and construction differences

[kdubinwa]

Not sure where to post this as it is a cross brand comparison of two similar Heartland products. Trying here first, but moderators may decide to move to Ask The Factory...

I am struggling to understand what is behind the difference in rated dry weights Heartland advertises for two models with nearly identical floor plans: Big Country 3450TS and Landmark Grand Canyon.

I like this floor plan and need to pay attention to weights as my TV is a 2011 F350 6.7 SRW and I will be near max payload ratings. Not a full-timer and don't intend to travel very full or with full tanks.

Also, I don't want to start a brand war as both of these are great products with similar construction and identical floor plans, but I just can't figure what is behind the difference in ratings. Below is the weight information taken directly from Heartland's website when doing a "compare" between the 3450TS and Grand Canyon.

BC 3450TS vs LM Grand Canyon

GVWR: 15,500 lbs vs 16,200 lbs
Dry Weight: 11,950 lbs vs 12,629 lbs
Pin Weight: 2200 lbs vs 2295 lbs

Length: 38'4" vs 37'7"
Sq Ft: 375 vs 379

Floor plans otherwise appear identical.

Questions:

1) What causes the Grand Canyon to weigh 679 lbs more than the 3450TS when the Grand Canyon is actually 9 inches shorter? The only differences I see beyond minor trim is Grand Canyon's higher floor R-value, G rated tires, 20 lbs of propane capacity, and rubber vs TPO roof. Are their significant differences in frame or manufacturing contributing to this? Coverage of interior cabinets looks identical.

2) Both the Grand Canyon have the same dry weight Pin/GVWR ratio of 18%. Yet the 629 lbs of added weight on the Grand Canyon only adds 95 lbs to the pin. Makes me wonder if the Grand Canyon dry pin weights are correct?

3) How does the nearly foot shorter Grand Canyon get 4 sq feet of additional space over the BC 3450TS? Are the slides deeper?

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

I'd also appreciate hearing from any owners on what actual pin weights they experience. I will not be adding washer/dryer or generator so looking to avoid adding a ton to my pin weight. Hoping to see a loaded pin around 2800 lbs.

Thanks much,
Kurt

 

[SJH]

I can't be of much help but one difference is cabinet material...Landmarks use solid wood stiles perhaps this would add some weight. Our BC has a TPO roof. Pin weight calculated at the local CAT scale ready to camp, very little fresh water, and no washer/dryer or generator is 2480lbs. We opted for the lesser expensive BC to get a bigger rig. So far, we have really enjoyed it.

I see you are from WA state. We are in the northwest corner near the Canadian border. When and if you get a Heartland please consider joining our WA Chapter of HOC. We have a rally in July...if nothing else, stop by and say hello!

Best Wishes!

 

[FordMan1966]

I just purchased a 2013 Grand Canyon Full Body Paint. I tow it with a 2011 F350 6.7 PSD DRW 3:73 and it tows the rv great. I think one of the weight difference is the 12" frame under the LM vs the 10" frame under the BC. We love our floor plan of the Grand Canyon it works well for our weekend camping and 2 weeks at Myrtle Beach starting tomorrow and a week in Florida during October.

 

[kakampers]

Landmark also comes with 2 A/Cs...

 

[Ray LeTourneau]

Kurt, FordMan1966 makes one very good point about the frame size. Another possibility is that the length stated for the GC is wrong. I seem to remember all of the Landmarks being in the 39 to 40 foot range. There may be a brochure available on the Heartland Site.
The mattress may be a better mattress too. The cabinets stiles are solid wood in both but the GC may have a different hardwood.
Regarding the pin weight for the BC, 2800 lbs would be about right if fully loaded. You would be surprised how the "stuff" we load adds up.

 

[SJH]

Kurt, FordMan1966 makes one very good point about the frame size. The cabinets stiles are solid wood in both but the GC may have a different hardwood.

This may be wrong but...I believe the 3450TS has the 12" frame and as I recall, our cabinet stiles are paper-covered particle board but if they are not, I would be a much happier camper!

 

[boatto5er]

Kurt, FordMan1966 makes one very good point about the frame size. Another possibility is that the length stated for the GC is wrong. I seem to remember all of the Landmarks being in the 39 to 40 foot range. There may be a brochure available on the Heartland Site.
The mattress may be a better mattress too. The cabinets stiles are solid wood in both but the GC may have a different hardwood.
Regarding the pin weight for the BC, 2800 lbs would be about right if fully loaded. You would be surprised how the "stuff" we load adds up.

Grand Canyon length is 37'7" Ray. There is an appliance garage in the GC that is not in the Big Country. Shower in the GC is a circular design that is slightly larger also. Not sure about other weight differences.

 

[tcbrady]

Kurt - see below in RED. Please reply with any questions.
thanks! Coley

Not sure where to post this as it is a cross brand comparison of two similar Heartland products. Trying here first, but moderators may decide to move to Ask The Factory...


I am struggling to understand what is behind the difference in rated dry weights Heartland advertises for two models with nearly identical floor plans: Big Country 3450TS and Landmark Grand Canyon.

I like this floor plan and need to pay attention to weights as my TV is a 2011 F350 6.7 SRW and I will be near max payload ratings. Not a full-timer and don't intend to travel very full or with full tanks.

Also, I don't want to start a brand war as both of these are great products with similar construction and identical floor plans, but I just can't figure what is behind the difference in ratings. Below is the weight information taken directly from Heartland's website when doing a "compare" between the 3450TS and Grand Canyon.

BC 3450TS vs LM Grand Canyon

GVWR: 15,500 lbs vs 16,200 lbs 15,000 vs 16,200
Dry Weight: 11,950 lbs vs 12,629 lbs 11,923 vs 12,629
Pin Weight: 2200 lbs vs 2295 lbs 2,200 vs 2,295

Length: 38'4" vs 37'7" 38’-6” vs 38’-6”
Sq Ft: 375 vs 379 400 vs 400

Floor plans otherwise appear identical.

Questions:

1) What causes the Grand Canyon to weigh 679 lbs more than the 3450TS when the Grand Canyon is actually 9 inches shorter? The only differences I see beyond minor trim is Grand Canyon's higher floor R-value, G rated tires, 20 lbs of propane capacity, and rubber vs TPO roof. Are their significant differences in frame or manufacturing contributing to this? Coverage of interior cabinets looks identical. 3450TS has vinyl wrapped cabinets, Grand Canyon has Hardwood cabinets

2) Both the Grand Canyon have the same dry weight Pin/GVWR ratio of 18%. Yet the 629 lbs of added weight on the Grand Canyon only adds 95 lbs to the pin. Makes me wonder if the Grand Canyon dry pin weights are correct? Most of the cabinet weight is behind the axles

3) How does the nearly foot shorter Grand Canyon get 4 sq feet of additional space over the BC 3450TS? Are the slides deeper? See above in red

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

I'd also appreciate hearing from any owners on what actual pin weights they experience. I will not be adding washer/dryer or generator so looking to avoid adding a ton to my pin weight. Hoping to see a loaded pin around 2800 lbs.

Thanks much,
Kurt

 

[brianharrison]

Grand Canyon has 104 gal fresh water tank - BC 73 gal - can add up to 260#s or so, if my math is correct.

Pin weight on my GC is 3000 #s, I have washer and dryer, no generator or 2nd AC. I pull with 2008 F350 with Firestone Ride Rite air bags to help keep the back end up and just into the overload springs - I am just marginal on rear axle weight and GCWR, when loaded and wet.

Finally, I am heavy with pride knowing I have the flagship (Landmark) from the Heartland family.... Probably only adds weight in swelling my head....(at the least that's what the DW tells me........)

Hope this helps.
Brian

 

[kdubinwa]

Thanks Coley for the new numbers! Looks like a minor website update for 2013 is in order. A few more questions if you don't mind:

Other than trim differences like cabinets discussed above, does the 3450TS and Grand Canyon use the same height frame and construction?

Are roofs both TPO on 3450TS and full-body paint Grand Canyon?

Can you confirm or provide add-on weights for the following options? (Note: I found some of these in other posts).

High gloss gel coat - 215 lbs (or LM Full body paint ?? lbs)
Dual Pane Windows - 120 lbs
Slide topper awnings for triple slide -101 lbs
Fireplace - 10 lbs
Exterior Entertainment System ?? lbs
Quite Whisper Dual A/C ?? lbs

Optioned like this I'm guessing another 500-600 lbs option dry weight so empty pin weight around 2400 on Grand Canyon? Sound right?

Forgive me everyone if this isn't proving useful to anyone else... I can always pick up the phone to get more nitty gritty

Thanks
Kurt

 

[kdubinwa]

Thanks Brian (and everyone else!) for taking the time to reply.

I'm pretty sure I'm headed into the same marginal area on rear axle and GCWR. I can live on the edge for a part-time get-away 5vr, but I don't want to overshoot the max weight by a bunch. I've always managed to avoid running wet (no dry camping for me, etc) so my challenge is to leave enough headroom for options (I like most of the goodies, but no generator, washer/dryer, or other heavy options forward), and then not stuff the basement. The BC leaves enough headroom for me, but I tempted to have a swollen head too... so still working angles on a new Landmark.

Cheers.

Grand Canyon has 104 gal fresh water tank - BC 73 gal - can add up to 260#s or so, if my math is correct.

Pin weight on my GC is 3000 #s, I have washer and dryer, no generator or 2nd AC. I pull with 2008 F350 with Firestone Ride Rite air bags to help keep the back end up and just into the overload springs - I am just marginal on rear axle weight and GCWR, when loaded and wet.

Finally, I am heavy with pride knowing I have the flagship (Landmark) from the Heartland family.... Probably only adds weight in swelling my head....(at the least that's what the DW tells me........)

Hope this helps.
Brian

 

[danemayer]

Kurt, we're towing a loaded Rushmore that's also rated at 16,200 GVWR. Dry Pinweight is spec'd at 2620#. At last year's rally we had it weighed and found we were at 15,000# actual. Pinweight actual was 3500#. We have full body paint, washer/dryer, generator, bedroom A/C all mounted up front, dual-pane windows, slide awnings, and just about every other option, all adding something to the dry Pinweight. We were packed heavily for 10 weeks on the road (loaded front closet and basement), and had about 1/2 tank of fresh water. All that to say that I doubt you could get to 3500# since you're starting 300+ pounds lower.

We're towing with a 2011 GMC 3500 SRW, CC, Longbed, 4x4. We also shopped the F350 and as I recall the GMC has a slightly better payload than the F350, but not by much. Our actual Pinweight along with everything in the truck puts our actual right at the payload spec for the truck. It tows beautifully, including up and down Colorado mountains. I would think with a lower Pinweight that you'll easily be within the Ford spec.

 

[tcbrady]

see below and feel free to call me at 574-266-3776 if you need additional info. thanks, Coley

Thanks Coley for the new numbers! Looks like a minor website update for 2013 is in order. A few more questions if you don't mind:

Other than trim differences like cabinets discussed above, does the 3450TS and Grand Canyon use the same height frame and construction? yes same height and construction

Are roofs both TPO on 3450TS and full-body paint Grand Canyon? yes

Can you confirm or provide add-on weights for the following options? (Note: I found some of these in other posts).

High gloss gel coat - 215 lbs (or LM Full body paint ?? lbs) approx 200 lbs
Dual Pane Windows - 120 lbs approx 200 lbs
Slide topper awnings for triple slide -101 lbs ok
Fireplace - 10 lbs ok
Exterior Entertainment System ?? lbs approx 100 lbs
Quite Whisper Dual A/C ?? lbs approx 50 lbs

Optioned like this I'm guessing another 500-600 lbs option dry weight so empty pin weight around 2400 on Grand Canyon? Sound right? sounds about right

Forgive me everyone if this isn't proving useful to anyone else... I can always pick up the phone to get more nitty gritty

Thanks
Kurt

 

[kdubinwa]

Thanks Dan for the info and comparison. It helps.

I can tell you that I love my 2011 F350 SRW, but the 2011 GM 3500 SRW really tempted me and kicked some major butt in the payload department with ratings for GM's newly upgraded boxed rail suspension. Ford needs to put our trucks on a diet I'd say your useable payload is 700 - 900 lbs higher than mine after factoring curb weight. According to my truck's sticker, I get about 3100 lbs to play with for payload, including my 200 lb hitch. Tight or just a bit over will likely be the story.

Kurt, we're towing a loaded Rushmore that's also rated at 16,200 GVWR. Dry Pinweight is spec'd at 2620#. At last year's rally we had it weighed and found we were at 15,000# actual. Pinweight actual was 3500#. We have full body paint, washer/dryer, generator, bedroom A/C all mounted up front, dual-pane windows, slide awnings, and just about every other option, all adding something to the dry Pinweight. We were packed heavily for 10 weeks on the road (loaded front closet and basement), and had about 1/2 tank of fresh water. All that to say that I doubt you could get to 3500# since you're starting 300+ pounds lower.

We're towing with a 2011 GMC 3500 SRW, CC, Longbed, 4x4. We also shopped the F350 and as I recall the GMC has a slightly better payload than the F350, but not by much. Our actual Pinweight along with everything in the truck puts our actual right at the payload spec for the truck. It tows beautifully, including up and down Colorado mountains. I would think with a lower Pinweight that you'll easily be within the Ford spec.

 

[Ray LeTourneau]

This may be wrong but...I believe the 3450TS has the 12" frame and as I recall, our cabinet stiles are paper-covered particle board but if they are not, I would be a much happier camper!

I guess I need to read a little more. I always thought the BC had hardwood stiles. I guess I just assumed the frame was 10" because the 3450 was in the "Shorter" length of trailers like our 3400. I guess the old saying still holds true about learning something new every day.