Mystery Water Valve ?????

[jbeletti]

Jim, can you get an answer to a question about this valve? Why is it installed inside when the supplier, B&B, advises that the valve will leak water and to not install the valve where the leak will cause damage?

Ted,

I don't want to press the plant on this one as I can't think of where this could be mounted where no water damage would occur and still be within the RV. Freezing water in the valve would be a concern if this was mounted outside the coach. So if we resign ourselves to imagining this within the interior of the coach and acknowledge that water runs downhill, I'm seeing water in places you don't want water - no matter where it's mounted.

Is it possible that B&B Molders statement is not just a great, albeit inactionable suggestion but also, a liability limiting statement?

 

[TedS]

If freezing is a problem for the flushing line, then all water lines will freeze. That is why we have a winterizing process. Remove the inlet check valve and safe water will drain out the inlet. That is what the vacuum break valve is meant to allow. It does not allow siphoning of black water back out the fresh water connection.

 

[ncc1701e]

At least I know what the darn thing is suppose to do now. I don't agree with the location at all and it will not remain there for sure. On the Sundance, there is no connection between the fresh water at the post and the black water flush unless I make one. When I use the flush I use a separate hose, regulator, check valve, and connection. So, right not I see no reason that I can't just remove the darn valve and put a simple check valve behind the wall on the UDC at the connection for the flush line. A check valve at this location would be over a foot higher than the inlet to the black tank. What does the toilet bowel height have to do with the location? I do not understand.

Just as a note, if this valve is not moved and should ever leak it sits directly above the furnace. Anyone want to imagine what that would smell like on a nice winter night. Code may say the mfg has to install the valve, but I have to believe a little engineering and research would lead to a much better location for the consumer in the end. Heartland needs to work on this I think, personally.

I understand the logic of having a check valve to prevent us nuts from contaminating our water systems. But engineering needs to get out in the field a little more and really understand where they are putting some of these devices. I worked industrial maintenance for 40 years and the best engineers were always the ones who came out in the field and asked a few questions about How and Should, before saying I can do this.

A lot of things to be learned here, for all of us.

 

[TedS]

Theoretically the toilet bowl rim would be the highest water for an overfilled black tank and would therefore be higher than the flush water inlet resulting in backflow if water pressure should fail. But we have toilets with discharge valves that do no allow black tank water to fill the bowl to the rim. People have experienced black water overflowing out the top of the black tank vent stack on the roof after forgetting to turn off the flushing water. That is why I say the highest overflow rim is the top of the vent stack. The vacuum break valve should be above the top of the vent stack. Residential toilets have waste water traps that do not prevent waste water from backfilling the toilet to the rim. Ever have a sewer back up at home? I believe that RVIA is blindly following residential plumbing code.

 

[Bob&Patty]

TedS, I guess Im not sure what you are saying. What does the "vacumn breaker" have to do with a toilet overflowing. Its in the flush line to the holding tank... and not connected to the toilet. If your toilet overflows its not the "vacumn breaker" that caused it. You either have a problem with the toilet or left the flusher on TOOOO long. Bottom line....the toilet is on it's own water line and not connected to the flush system in any way...except they are in the same trailer.

 

[TedS]

The vacuum breaker valve is associated with the toilet because they are connected to the same black tank. When you use the tank flusher system a siphon is created in the flusher plumbing. Black tank water could be drawn back, siphoned, out of the tank when the input water is turned off and disconnected. You would have waste water then flowing out of the inlet connection. The vacuum breaker valve interrupts that siphon by opening, disrupting the siphon action allowing water to drain into the black tank instead of the fresh water inlet. The vacuum breaker valve must be at the high point of the siphon which in turn must be above the highest possible water level in the waste system, in this case the toilet rim.

 

[Thenomads]

Ted, I too own a 2011 2985 RL we have had it for almost 2 years and are still learning about it. Today I find out the black tank flush has an anti-siphon/vaccum breaker valve. Where is it located on our rig? I read the stories of them leaking and thought I better know where it is now, rather than later when I have a mess and can't find out where it is coming from. It makes sense that this is a needed item, I now realize why when using the black tank flusher it has that high pitched whine. I learn something everytime I am on this site. Thanks everybody.
P.S. We love the trailer!

 

[danemayer]

I get the sense from many of these posts that there's a fear of getting waste water pouring out a leaking anti-siphon valve, into the interior of the coach.

We have heard from people who've had leaks from the black tank flush anti-siphon valve, but I think they've always been clean water leaks.

I'm trying to imagine if it would be very likely that waste water could come out of a leaking valve.

I suppose you'd have to imagine a scenario where the black tank flush was being used, was left on, filled the black tank so much that it was overflowing through the roof vent (as several people have done). But if the anti-siphon valve were leaking, I think it would have a hard time filling the black tank that much. You'd probably notice the clean water leak way before getting waste water up to the roof.

Suppose just as the waste water started coming out the roof vent, the anti-siphon valve chose that moment to develop a leak. Would that allow the tank pressure to force waste water backward through the sprayer holes, overcoming the pressure of incoming water, and leak waste water through the valve?

Seems to me that's a pretty low-odds scenario. I think you'd mainly have black water all over the outside of your rig, and most likely clean water inside the basement and underbelly.

 

[TedS]

thenomads, it is located behind the access panel in the shower.

danemayer, the most likely leak will be freshwater if the vacuum breaker valve leaks when the flusher is being used. In my mind it is still a leak and puts water when it should not be and where it would not be noticed until too late and floor and wall materials are soaked. Hopefully, if you see waste water running off the roof you open the waste tank valve to drain the tank. Or, if you have a hose rupture at the time the tank vent is full, waste water will flow back through the closed vacuum breaker valve and out the burst hose. The vacuum breaker cannot open and vent until the highest water level is below the valve and the fresh water input is turned off.

 

[JohnDar]

Well, I'm not worried about having the roof vent turn into a geyser, or poop shooting out the inlet to the flusher system. Biggest concern I have is that the valve fails while I'm using the flushing system and dumps water (albeit clean) down the wall and into the basement. To that end, I've already relocated my converter and suppressor off the flood plain and when I'm using the flusher, I open my access panel in the basement wall and keep an eye on the area where it is. And when I'm playing sanitation engineer, I stay focused on what I'm doing and don't multi-task or walk away from my UDC. With my water meter, I know exactly how much water I'm putting into the tank via the flusher when I'm "recharging" the black tank.

Sure, my gages are as inaccurate as most, but overfilling the tank by overuse is not a problem. We all know the "burp" the toilet bowl will do if the tank is full, but I've also learned the change in sound it makes when flushing, just before it's gotten to the burp level. That's when I dump, rather than being forced to later (like at zero-dark thirty).

 

[Mizmary]

Well, I'm not worried about having the roof vent turn into a geyser, or poop shooting out the inlet to the flusher system.

Ever seen the movie RV? 😮

I pictured that when I read this.

 

[ncc1701e]

Like many others, I learn something every time I read a post or start one. You guys are great. This one certainly has been enlightening. I guess the only real issue I have with this darn valve is the location. The wife certainly isn't happy with it now that she knows the valve is in her kitchen pantry and I really hate the fact that the valve is directly above the furnace should it develop a problem. I believe what I'm going to do is work on a shield and splash guard that will at least direct any leak should it happen away from the furnace. I don't really want to move it to some location that is nearly impossible to reach.

I think if I should ever get back up to the Goshen area that I'd like to spend ever how long it takes to go from start to finish and really understand where everything is hidden in our brand of camper. We went through the Sundance line at the National Rally this year and it was interesting. Now, I'd like to more or less just move from one station to the next and build a unit with the guys. Really learn where stuff is.

We love the Sundance and it has thus far been exceptionally trouble free. I just wish Heartland provided more details and drawings on each product to the consumer.

 

[ncc1701e]

The vacuum breaker valve is associated with the toilet because they are connected to the same black tank. When you use the tank flusher system a siphon is created in the flusher plumbing. Black tank water could be drawn back, siphoned, out of the tank when the input water is turned off and disconnected. You would have waste water then flowing out of the inlet connection. The vacuum breaker valve interrupts that siphon by opening, disrupting the siphon action allowing water to drain into the black tank instead of the fresh water inlet. The vacuum breaker valve must be at the high point of the siphon which in turn must be above the highest possible water level in the waste system, in this case the toilet rim.

Thanks, good information.

 

[TedS]

JimB, perhaps since Heartland is choosing to use a valve B&B advises leaks when in use, they could install it where the leak does no damage. For example, on the wall inside the shower where the fresh water leak will go down the shower drain. Or capture the leak, the water that runs downhill, and direct it out the bottom of the trailer.

 

[JohnDar]

Ever seen the movie RV? 

I pictured that when I read this.

No, I'll have to pull it up on "On Demand" when we're home.