We are in our fourth week of ownership with our new Bighorn 3270RE. We have had several other brands, some fifth wheel, others were bumper pull. The condition of this RV as we received it was probably better than the others we had but I'm surprised by the condition some items were in when it left the factory. The gray water valves leaked, there were lots of loose staples in the carpet, two of the decals didn't line up, one on the door. I would be very surprised if this went unnoticed and several nails in the trim didn't go into the framework, they are poking up just under the slide seals. Just a matter of time until they would poke through. Don't get me wrong, we love the trailer but are wondering if it is industry standards to have these kind of issues.What have others experienced? Thanks.
Quality Control
- Thread starter Thehill
- Start date
mlpeloquin
Well-known member
On day one we had a large bulge in the living room carpet, a month later two ladder plastic supports break, and over several months cabinet hinges pop out, and drain plumbing leak. I repaired all but the carpet. Heartland fixed that. To fix the drain I asked my neighbor who is a master plumber. Plumbers putty top and bottom of each connection. They have not loosened up since. For the ladder I called Heartland parts department and they sent the parts. It only takes a couple of minuets to change out and could not see Heartland paying for the labor and us not having and using the fifth wheel. The cabinets were fixed using the following epoxy: https://www.tapplastics.com/product...ives_glues_sealants/mr_stickys_vibra_bond/436 It holds really well and stays pliable and absorbs shock and vibrations. None have popped loose since. At the end of our one year our bedroom slide broke. Two weeks after the warranty was out. My dealer called Heartland and they said that they would cover it. When I went to pick it up, I was told that they decided not to. I used my extended coverage to pick up most of the cost. So mostly little things.
Rottiesmom
New York Chapter Leader - retired
Unfortunately quality control is an issue in all industry home, cars, rv. It is the way of the world today. Companies are more worried about making that bottom line being in the black and not the red. We had service done on one of our cars last week and when we picked it up the problem was still there we brought it back to mechanic and part was defective. Until companies(more than they do at the moment) take pride into the products they are producing like they did years ago and worry what they are giving the customer you will continue to see these issues. As for Heartland they have always been helpful to us whenever we had issues small or large and their customer service department has also tried to help us with solutions that I have heard other rv companies have not. I agree Quality Control should be taken more serious than it is and hopefully one day these companies will begin to do that but until than when you own any mechanical product you need to be a mechanic yourself to be able to fix the little stuff and even sometimes the major. Just my opinion.
Detroit finally improved much after stiff competition from Japan. They got so bad some even needed a government bail out. We need some competition in the RV industry to get them to shape up. Do their workers not have any pride? Our Big Horn was better than most RVs we've had, but still too much sloppy work. I guess as long as we keep buying them they'll keep turning out sloppy work.
I agreed with you 100% we have a big country no pride very poor workmanship.
danemayer
Well-known member
There's quite a bit of competition in the RV industry. And periodically various companies have taken significant measures to improve quality. Only trouble is that they go out of business a year or two later. Evergreen is a recent example. DRV is another that focused on quality and was about to go out of business - ended up being sold to Thor. I think Excel failed at about the same time and couldn't find a buyer. They just closed up shop.
No one knows why they go out of business, but it does seem more than coincidental that so many of the companies highly regarded for quality control end up going out of business.
So be careful what you wish for. The people who bought Excel or Evergreen products to get better quality now have zero factory support.
The big 3 ,Thor,Forest River and Winnebago are not going out of business any day soon.We need to stop sticking up for them about their poor Quality Control.
People pay good hard earned money for these units and expect some form of QC,we still continue to hear about the same ongoing issues with units,leaking pipes,mouldings falling off,cabinet doors falling off,sinks seals leaking etc etc.These should have been addressed by now with all the continued warranty costs and repairs,it just seems like the direction is get them built asap,get them out the door and don't worry about the small stuff,we pay to get it fixed,it costs ZERO to do it right the first time,it costs a lot to have the repairs done afterward and this contributes to increased prices for new units.
If prices are not curbed then people will not be able to afford to upgrade ,then the industry will go into a real turmoil.
My view...........
BigGuy82
Well-known member
If you are interested in what complacency and lack of competition can do to an industry, read "The Reckoning" by David Halberstam.
Bottom line is that Berkshire Hathaway, Thor Industries and Winnebago are all multi-billion dollar companies who should know the value of quality to the bottom line. They ignore it because they have no competition as an industry. Crash and burn will occur when and if the Japanese and/or Koreans can figure out how to ship RV's here at competitive prices.
Simply stated, there is absolutely no good excuse for the low quality of modern coaches. Saying that delivering a quality product will increase prices is thinking like Detroit did during the '70's and we all know how that turned out.
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Bottom line is that Berkshire Hathaway, Thor Industries and Winnebago are all multi-billion dollar companies who should know the value of quality to the bottom line. They ignore it because they have no competition as an industry. Crash and burn will occur when and if the Japanese and/or Koreans can figure out how to ship RV's here at competitive prices.
Simply stated, there is absolutely no good excuse for the low quality of modern coaches. Saying that delivering a quality product will increase prices is thinking like Detroit did during the '70's and we all know how that turned out.
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danemayer
Well-known member
After 35 years at a very large corporation, I can assure you that the net worth of the parent company doesn't give the divisions permission to under perform on the financial objectives set by the parent. If they fail, step 1 is to replace division management. If they continue to fail, in step 2, the division is dissolved and their mission gets assigned to successful divisions.
So the value of Thor's assets is irrelevant. Every business unit has to pull its own weight.
Now I agree with you that if a company like Hyundai or Toyota went into the RV business, things might change. But I don't expect that to happen. The business opportunity is all wrong for them.
I don't expect anything to change.
So the value of Thor's assets is irrelevant. Every business unit has to pull its own weight.
Now I agree with you that if a company like Hyundai or Toyota went into the RV business, things might change. But I don't expect that to happen. The business opportunity is all wrong for them.
- Their quality reputation would still be held hostage by the quality issues of all the appliance and subsystem manufacturers. How do you fix Dometic's A/C problems? Build your own? Not likely.
- The cost of setting up a high quality dealer and service network is a pretty high bar to jump over, and without doing that, I'm sure they would not risk their reputations. Dealers currently can switch between RV manufacturers and are very hard to control. Bad dealers make the manufacturer look bad. RV manufacturers have very little control over dealers. But Toyota is an 800 lb gorilla when it comes to managing their dealers. They would never put their reputation on the line without controlling the dealers.
- The RV business is too small. The RV business is low volume compared to the auto business. But it's still capital intensive with relatively poor ROA due to low volumes. It doesn't match the investment model followed by Toyota, Hyundai or other large auto manufacturers.
I don't expect anything to change.
olcoon
Well-known member
I don't think the entire problem lays with the manufacturers not caring, or whatever. I feel a lot of it is the work force of today. They have no pride in workmanship, and are just interested in doing what they absolutely have to do to get a paycheck...if they are willing to work at all. One thing I do fault them on is how they pay their employees, at least how I've heard they pay their employees, & I understand it's industry wide. I've heard they have to produce X amount of rigs per day. When they get done they can go home. So they know that once they've got X amount of rigs done they can leave, if it's 11:00 or 6:00. I know if I could work & leave before my 8 hours is over, I "might" be willing to skimp on doing my job faster, even if I wasn't doing it correctly. Even if the employees have a good work ethic, and honestly try to do their job correctly, they are humans, and we all make mistakes.
TravelTiger
Founding Texas-West Chapter Leaders-Retired
It makes it hard to defend your choice of rigs when you hear story after story of poor workmanship and problems that have to be coming from the factory. There are more "Heartland Owner groups" popping up on Facebook, and the posts are often not complimentary.
Most regulars here on the forum do try to help newbies that are frustrated.... how long before we all get frustrated trying to defend a product that isn't truly better than the competition? Heartland has a tremendous asset with the Owners Club and forum, with thousands of unpaid champions for the brand. Word of mouth from real owners is always more influential than advertising and dealer speak. But Heartland has to produce a product we can shout about.
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Most regulars here on the forum do try to help newbies that are frustrated.... how long before we all get frustrated trying to defend a product that isn't truly better than the competition? Heartland has a tremendous asset with the Owners Club and forum, with thousands of unpaid champions for the brand. Word of mouth from real owners is always more influential than advertising and dealer speak. But Heartland has to produce a product we can shout about.
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BigGuy82
Well-known member
Erika, I agree and you said it very nicely. Defending poor quality doesn't serve anyone well. While I like my coach and I do speak well of it when chewing the fat at campgrounds, I'm not an apologist either. Heartland (well, to be honest, Thor Industries) does need to get their act together.
With all of the "philosophies" about quality, here are the simple facts. When a product has these defects, it is not a quality product (and this is just my coach):
- multiple loose screws
- sinks that fall out because someone didn't secure them
- carpet staples sticking up that cut toes
- end caps that fit so poorly they are misshapen
- misaligned bike carrier frame brackets that require re-welding
- table screwed to the floor crooked
- nicked wires that cause shorts
- backup cam wires that were never connected
- stereos not working because the wiring was bundled together with electrical tape that looks like a five year old did it causing two disconnected wires
- a floor speaker that had an L bracket to secure it but was never secured, causing the speaker to fall and break my coffee maker
- TV connections that fall off because they were never tightened
- missing shackle bushings, misaligned entry doors
- basement walls that popped apart because screws drilled in at an angle were expected to hold thin particle board walls together
- slam hatch doors that leaked around the latches because the holes were sloppily cut
- etc. etc, etc
Because I have experience, I fixed all of these problems myself (with the exception of re-welding the frame brackets). I'm also happy with the coach because now it is "right" thanks to me.
No one - I repeat - no one is responsible for any of the above but Heartland and it is poor quality. It is the result of just pushing units out the door with the expectation of the new owners fixing the problems or having the dealer do it under warranty and it is a poor business model. It is the result of poorly motivated employees and poor quality assurance procedures - which speaks volumes about management (who I am sure are getting their bonuses for "improving the bottom line"). Trying to defend this doesn't play in my book.
The arguments that if a quality product was to be offered, nobody could afford it are just silly. If Heartland can afford to fix this stuff after the coach leaves the factory, they can afford to do it right the first time.
BigGuy82
Well-known member
You do make good points but after over four decades at a Fortune 500 company, I know a bit about this stuff myself. However, discussing all of this financial information hugely misses the point. To demonstrate, I'd first like to address each of your points:
- if you can't control your suppliers, that's a management failure. If you can't find alternative suppliers then vertically integrate (for a company the size of Thor, they should be able to figure this out). And from what I see, supplier issues are only part of the problem - poor workmanship is also huge.
- We sold exclusively through dealers and we controlled our channel. Failure to do so is clearly a management failure and that is not a good reason for the customer to suffer a poor quality product. If the product wasn't defective in the first place, Thor wouldn't need to rely on dealers to fix it.
- I would not call Thor Industries small. They are a $4.5 Billion, NYSE listed company comprised of 17 brands of RV's. They can afford to offer a quality product. Regarding the auto "investment model", you apparently didn't read The Reckoning - a story about how Datsun (David) brought Ford (Goliath) to their knees and the lessons learned from offering a quality product, regardless of volume. By the way, Ford learned it's lesson and I regard their products as superb.
When I said you missed the point here is what I meant (from a post I made earlier today):
With all of the "philosophies" about quality, here are the simple facts. When a product has these defects, it is not a quality product (and this is just my coach):
- multiple loose screws
- sinks that fall out because someone didn't secure them
- carpet staples sticking up that cut toes
- end caps that fit so poorly they are misshapen
- misaligned bike carrier frame brackets that require re-welding
- table screwed to the floor crooked
- nicked wires that cause shorts
- backup cam wires that were never connected
- stereos not working because the wiring was bundled together with electrical tape that looks like a five year old did it causing two disconnected wires
- a floor speaker that had an L bracket to secure it but was never secured, causing the speaker to fall and break my coffee maker
- TV connections that fall off because they were never tightened
- missing shackle bushings
- misaligned entry doors
- basement walls that popped apart because screws drilled in at an angle were expected to hold thin particle board walls together
- slam hatch doors that leaked around the latches because the holes were sloppily cut
- etc. etc, etc
So, all I'm saying is this: the size of the company has absolutely nothing to do with doing the job right the first time, and in fact, for a huge company like Thor it would make them even more profitable because they wouldn't need to bear the financial burden of repairing shoddy workmanship. I, like you, don't expect anything to change either. Sad, because it could be a huge win/win - customers would be happier and Thor could make even more money by simply tightening up their quality.
I'm sure that many folks are getting tired of this discussion, but if you'd like to discuss it via email, I'd be happy to.
JohnDar
Prolifically Gabby Member
When I was a newbie, I would seek out other Heartland owners at the campground we spend the summer at. After a litany of complaints and negative reactions, I just MMOB (mind my own business). If approached, I'll talk but when they start to complain, I ask them if they know how to maintain their rig themselves. If they ask for help with a problem, I've got tools and am willing to lend a hand.
Our rig isn't perfect, but it's held up well and any problems are due to its age and use. I also make it a habit to frequently inspect areas where problems have been noted by others. Applying their remedies as a preventive measure has been a good thing. Like the exposed edges of slide floors.
Our rig isn't perfect, but it's held up well and any problems are due to its age and use. I also make it a habit to frequently inspect areas where problems have been noted by others. Applying their remedies as a preventive measure has been a good thing. Like the exposed edges of slide floors.
Shortest Straw
Caught In A Mosh
Well said!! There is no way those people who are happy with Heartland can compete with those who are not happy. Heartlands ultimate responsibility is to produce a product where the folks with complaints is drowned out by those without. We are finding out that there are more disgruntled Heartland owners everywhere we go. One fella with a Road Warrior asked me if I was looking forward to getting into another brand. A camp host at a park we stayed at told us that she felt sorry for anyone in a Heartland due to her and her friends issues with the units they used to own.
I read on a forum this morning where a fella with a one of Heartlands higher end models told someone else with a lower end model that he should not expect a quality product because he did not spend enough money. WHAT!!?? Where does that mentality come from? Couple that with a first time buyer who does not want to shell out triple digits on their first rig, imagine the disappointment.
Quality control is not the most important thing to the manufacturers because we do not hold them to a standard as buyers, there are new buyers who don't know the difference, and because it seems to be the American way these days.
Az_Ernie
Well-known member
Now this is what I'd call hitting the nail on the head! I'm no expert, but I think having to pay dealers for warranty work has to cost at least twice as much as doing it right on the manufacturing line.
Ernie
We picked ours up in March - used it once and been in for repairs since then....ugggg. Even had screws they left on the floor and when we opened the slip it totally ripped the lineolium apart....wiring for whole trailer was horrible - just one thing after another...hoping to get it back for 4th of July....so that tells you it's still in the shop. Love my rig, but like everyone else the workmanship is horrible...
Hello all,
We have had our Heartland Bighorn for 3 months now. Been out 3 trips and a full week. There are some things need to be tightened for sure, some trim needs some touch up, a water pump that has a bad check valve runs once and a while (dropped by the dealer and he gave me a new one as a spare). All AV connections worked as labelled, all appliances worked as expected.
Nothing major at all, everything we are happy with! I will report back if we have any major issues.
We spent 2 years looking for a new Fifth Wheel. The Grand Design was close, but the finishes were not up to snuff. We looked at DRV and the finishes were sloppy in trim and quality. We came from Forest River and the Rockwood ultralight club. We started with a 32 ft TT, trip one, first day out slide failed, TV mount fell off the wall on the elevator, shower roof vent was cracked. We dumped this and bought a fifth wheel, had lift kit put on so the tires had clearance, lots of trim things I fixed, AV Wiring a mess, coax cables with screws driven through them. These are mid level trailers and ultralight meaning less expensive/lighter finishes.
As part of our search we looked at Columbus, nice discontinued the floorplan we liked, poor finishes and lighter under carriage. Ruled out Riverstone. way too heavy with ceramic floors, granite counters etc. Cedar Creek, floor plans not what we liked and way overpriced for us anyways. They discontinued the Trilogy, nice trailer, best FR division IMHO.
We selected Heartland as it checked all the boxes off, had what we wanted and priced in our budget. We only have 1 dealer in all of Ontario and he was more than fair on trade and selling price of our Bighorn.
QC issues are nothing new, back n 1969 my father and his brother had frame failures on Boise Cascade Citation TT (Bought by Bendix, then General Couch) . They fixed the frames themselves/
We have had our Heartland Bighorn for 3 months now. Been out 3 trips and a full week. There are some things need to be tightened for sure, some trim needs some touch up, a water pump that has a bad check valve runs once and a while (dropped by the dealer and he gave me a new one as a spare). All AV connections worked as labelled, all appliances worked as expected.
Nothing major at all, everything we are happy with! I will report back if we have any major issues.
We spent 2 years looking for a new Fifth Wheel. The Grand Design was close, but the finishes were not up to snuff. We looked at DRV and the finishes were sloppy in trim and quality. We came from Forest River and the Rockwood ultralight club. We started with a 32 ft TT, trip one, first day out slide failed, TV mount fell off the wall on the elevator, shower roof vent was cracked. We dumped this and bought a fifth wheel, had lift kit put on so the tires had clearance, lots of trim things I fixed, AV Wiring a mess, coax cables with screws driven through them. These are mid level trailers and ultralight meaning less expensive/lighter finishes.
As part of our search we looked at Columbus, nice discontinued the floorplan we liked, poor finishes and lighter under carriage. Ruled out Riverstone. way too heavy with ceramic floors, granite counters etc. Cedar Creek, floor plans not what we liked and way overpriced for us anyways. They discontinued the Trilogy, nice trailer, best FR division IMHO.
We selected Heartland as it checked all the boxes off, had what we wanted and priced in our budget. We only have 1 dealer in all of Ontario and he was more than fair on trade and selling price of our Bighorn.
QC issues are nothing new, back n 1969 my father and his brother had frame failures on Boise Cascade Citation TT (Bought by Bendix, then General Couch) . They fixed the frames themselves/
