Quality - Some feedback for factory
- Thread starter bobca1
- Start date
I wish just one RV company would step up to the plate and build quality in. In every business, it only takes one company offering a better product and others are forced to do better.
If Heartland runs employees on piece work and getting paid for 8 hours work and letting them do it in 5, I can understand the 10-15 water leaks I have fixed besides the long list of warranty issues that I have turned in and still havent heard a thing back yet.
If Heartland runs employees on piece work and getting paid for 8 hours work and letting them do it in 5, I can understand the 10-15 water leaks I have fixed besides the long list of warranty issues that I have turned in and still havent heard a thing back yet.
danemayer
Well-known member
Some years ago the executives in our workplace decided they wanted to win the Malcolm Baldridge Quality Award (The Baldrige Performance Excellence Program and the associated award were established by the Malcolm Baldrige National Quality Improvement Act of 1987).
One of our divisions did win a few years later. But quality awards didn't help keep that division prospering. They delivered high quality products year after year while spiraling out of business. Lower priced competitive offerings eventually did them in. They're gone now, as are some of the other early Baldridge winners. Motorola was another early Baldridge winner, along with being a promoter of Six Sigma Quality Methodology. Despite their extraordinary, award winning quality, you don't hear too much about Motorola these days, do you.
Same with some of the RV companies people used to point to when they talked about higher quality. Gone.
And if you think that Mr. Tiffin's expensive motorhomes guarantee a trouble-free existence, ask the guy parked next to me from December through February. His new coach had quite a punch list by the time he left.
Quality is good, but contrary to the platitudes, it's not always free. And despite what they may say, customers don't always make their purchase decisions with quality at the top of list.
'Lil Guy'
Well-known member
Seems to me the 3 luxury model 5th wheel rigs sold by Heartland are being bought with quality as a priority. I'll be purchasing a BH in the near future and expect some minor issues to arise. That's true with all brands. However, some of the things I'm reading about sound like just sloppy work. There is no excuse to buy a high end rig and they don't clean up there drops are shavings form various installations. What if I ordered a new BH and offered an extra couple of thousand dollars for the unit if they would go back through it and clean out all cutouts in hidden compartments and make sure all fittings, electrical, plumbing and hydrolic are properly tightened? Seems like they should be cleaning up as they go instead of building around the previous mess. I personally haven't seen these issues yet on my first 2 units of the lower end. Maybe it's just a few of the rigs that get out which I'm reading about. I believe they need to start doing a post build inspection even if they have to up the price to pay for the service. The people on that assembly line need to be held accountable for the problems. Just like any business, quality should be an important part of a process and it starts with management.
IMO, the HOC is the biggest selling factor Heartland has. If the problems are occurring at dealer make ready, then HL should address that also. Again, I've had no major issues with either of my 2 units and will be upgrading to a BH in the near future. You gotta love thiw forum.
Last edited:
Very good thoughts. Theany things like loose water connections, compartmemts full of sawdust and cutouts, loose receptacle boxes due to sloppy cutouts are all very easy fixes for a company like Heartland, if asking for that little higher level of quality would make them go broke, they are to cheap. I dont believe they are to cheap to do a better job. In my work if construction, the ones that do sloppy work, dont clean up after themselves and so on are the ones that lose business, and cause alot of other problems. If I was to build you a building, and it had numerous water leaks, there would be dust floating in over the new merchandise you planned to sell, would it be acceptable for me to just say " thats the industry standard, if we do a better job, we ll go broke"
'Lil Guy'
Well-known member
Understand that on my 2 HL products over the last year, I haven't had any issues. The only dust and debris on my floors and cabinets were noticed after our 1st trip and that is normal from the jostling and bouncing down the road.. We did have the plumbing on the sink fall off but we had our dealer install some new faucets my wife picked out. An easy fix but looked bad for our dealer, not HL. The quality issues I'm referring to are the ones I keep reading of on this forum. At the 4 rally's we've atended, we didn't hear of any big issues but here you read of some poor soul with a rig full of issues. I honestly believe that they are a small minority of the actual number of rigs sold. At least, that is what I want to believe. The PDI should fix the bulk of the issues before delivery. Little issues left undone can lead to more serious problems. They had ours opened up to check for leaks on all of he plumbing and connections when we arrived. After our acceptance my wife gave them another faucet that wasn't completely tied in by a service hand at the dealership. We caught it quick as water was running out from under the sink and fixed it right.
But, like I said, a good quality control program in place and adhered to is a great selling point and should be part of any companies program. The cost of all of the minor issues being covered under warranty should pay for a QC program. And like I said in my previous post, I'll be upgrading to a BH later this year and hopefully it will be as reliable as our first two HL rigs we've bought.
As a Heartland owner, I would like for them to be the best in the business. And for the few with the problems, whether from a poor dealer make ready or from a bad day at he factory, I hope they get all of heir problems worked out. But knowing what I know now, I will be doing a better check before acceptance to catch the minor issues and any other problems that should be addressed before we pull it out.
With this said, I can't wait till I own my trouble free Bighorn.
But, like I said, a good quality control program in place and adhered to is a great selling point and should be part of any companies program. The cost of all of the minor issues being covered under warranty should pay for a QC program. And like I said in my previous post, I'll be upgrading to a BH later this year and hopefully it will be as reliable as our first two HL rigs we've bought.
As a Heartland owner, I would like for them to be the best in the business. And for the few with the problems, whether from a poor dealer make ready or from a bad day at he factory, I hope they get all of heir problems worked out. But knowing what I know now, I will be doing a better check before acceptance to catch the minor issues and any other problems that should be addressed before we pull it out.
With this said, I can't wait till I own my trouble free Bighorn.
oscar
Well-known member
Let's get one thing straight..... we love ours and over the three years of ownership it's been 95% reliable and conforming to our expectations. (This is not my first rodeo).....
That said..... the issues I've run into have been 100% preventable. Over tightening, under tightening.....too much goop, not enough goop....just all around sloppyness. That and a few design brain farts. A tighter control on the manufacturing process is definitely needed. Then again, at this price point that may not be possible. You buy something that is going to have flaws, or you're going to pay more a lot more. The irony is that the people that pay more have the same issues.....
So, the sad part may be that money can no longer buy a product from someone that cares, or is capable, of delivering perfection. Welcome to our world.
That said..... the issues I've run into have been 100% preventable. Over tightening, under tightening.....too much goop, not enough goop....just all around sloppyness. That and a few design brain farts. A tighter control on the manufacturing process is definitely needed. Then again, at this price point that may not be possible. You buy something that is going to have flaws, or you're going to pay more a lot more. The irony is that the people that pay more have the same issues.....
So, the sad part may be that money can no longer buy a product from someone that cares, or is capable, of delivering perfection. Welcome to our world.
JanAndBill
Well-known member
Dan most times I agree with you but I have to disagree with your previous comments on quality in manufacturing. Attention to detail and quality doesn't cause businesses to go under, but poor quality and bad management decisions will. While consumers may not consider quality details in an inexpensive item, I think that most RV shoppers expect because of the high price of the units, that a certain level of quality is implied.
Years ago Honda motor built a plant not far from us. As a result many smaller supplier plants sprang up around us. Since we were already supplying shuttle service between plants for another large German manufacturer, we were asked to provide bids on the same type of service for a small Honda subsidiary that built some of the under frame components for the new Honda assembly plant. When I arrived at the plant I was greeted by a contact dressed in white. As I was led through the plant I was amazed at how clean everything was. Even though these components were going under the frame in areas that would never be seen by the consumer, the paint finish had to be perfect and blemish free. Each piece was packed in large wooden crates in custom designed packaging for it's 20 mile trip to the assembly plant.
It didn't take long to realize that I was probably out of my element when we arrived at the loading docks. The trailers on the doors had HIGHLY POLISHED wood floors and blemish free high gloss white walls. At no point did they want any dust, dirt, grit to enter the plant. While the German manufacturer charged twice as much for their vehicle as Honda, their quality control guidelines, while excellent, weren't nearly as extreme.
While Heartland may not need to go to same extreme as the example above, I do believe that consumers should be able to expect that when the unit leaves the factory, that everything works as it should. In the case of the RV industry it seems that the manufacturers tend to shift the responsibility for this final step over to the dealer, and provide little oversight to assure that it's done.
Years ago Honda motor built a plant not far from us. As a result many smaller supplier plants sprang up around us. Since we were already supplying shuttle service between plants for another large German manufacturer, we were asked to provide bids on the same type of service for a small Honda subsidiary that built some of the under frame components for the new Honda assembly plant. When I arrived at the plant I was greeted by a contact dressed in white. As I was led through the plant I was amazed at how clean everything was. Even though these components were going under the frame in areas that would never be seen by the consumer, the paint finish had to be perfect and blemish free. Each piece was packed in large wooden crates in custom designed packaging for it's 20 mile trip to the assembly plant.
It didn't take long to realize that I was probably out of my element when we arrived at the loading docks. The trailers on the doors had HIGHLY POLISHED wood floors and blemish free high gloss white walls. At no point did they want any dust, dirt, grit to enter the plant. While the German manufacturer charged twice as much for their vehicle as Honda, their quality control guidelines, while excellent, weren't nearly as extreme.
While Heartland may not need to go to same extreme as the example above, I do believe that consumers should be able to expect that when the unit leaves the factory, that everything works as it should. In the case of the RV industry it seems that the manufacturers tend to shift the responsibility for this final step over to the dealer, and provide little oversight to assure that it's done.
fredwrichardson
Past New Mexico Chapter Leader
Dan,
Quality is free! I turned around two computer peripheral companies and all we did was teach the workers how to properly build and measure and improve their processes. Edwards Deming (who turned around Japan) developed Statistical Process Control (SPC) and companies like Honda and Toyota still use SPC to this day. Based on what I see in the RV business they still use go-no go gauges, inspection people and production quotas that defeat the whole idea of quality. I can guarantee that no company went out of business because their quality was to good. The only reason they would go out of business is their costs are to high or their quality is to low.
This is a real hot button with me so I apologize if I seem to be preaching. I too had to learn the hard way about implementing quality processes watching a company I was part of have the leading product in the business and go out of business because they cut corners when making their product. I do agree that the Malcolm Baldridge Quality Award has turned into a marketing program. Many companies that have earned it in many cases did not improve their quality. With SPC or TQM (Total Quality Management) the job is to always keep improving the process and there is no awards just a more efficient process that makes a better part or service.
Fred
2psnapod2
Texas-South Chapter Leaders-Retired
In my experience quality is not free. I used to work as a Heating and AC installer. There were 2 of us that each worked and did the same job. It took me about 5 days to do a nice job at putting in a new Heating system in a house. The other guy did it in about 3.5 to 4 days. Both the systems worked just fine, but since my product was one that I would have had in my house, verses the other guys just working properly, it took me a bit longer to do. So at the end of the job, which installed did you want done, one that was really a great looking job that took longer or one that worked just fine that took at least a day less? My boss had to pay me an extra day labor to get the nicer looking job, so he ended up sending me to the homes that the people cared more for quality and sent the other guy to those that really could not afford quality. So yes quality does cost more. You get what you pay for. And they have to balance the costs, because we really can only spend so much on our RVs.
fredwrichardson
Past New Mexico Chapter Leader
Michael,
Your example is actually one that shows quality is free. When someone pays you to do a job and you do it better so that the final job looks better, last longer or makes it easier for the customer then the customer is getting value for your work. If you did the same work without doing it better then you would be just adding costs and that would cost the customer more money. In the world of RVs where they are doing the sames processes over and over then you can improve quality by improving the process. Notice I did not say cheapen the process but a more efficient process by it's nature will reduce costs.
Fred
Last edited:
2psnapod2
Texas-South Chapter Leaders-Retired
But it still cost the customer more. And since the RV for each customer is different, coming off the same line, they can only charge the same for each RV. There is no "this one get better treatment". They have to balance the quality with the cost so that even those that are not necessarily looking for quality but price can also get the RV. Most people are not really looking for quality when purchasing, they really are looking at the wow factor. Unfortunately you and I are willing to pay more but most everyone is not in that boat.
fredwrichardson
Past New Mexico Chapter Leader
Totally agree on the Wow Factor. The old saying about "you get what you pay for" is still alive and well.
'Lil Guy'
Well-known member
I'm sure you've heard of the definition of insanity. The process of doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If simple issues continue to arise, they need to be looked at differently. I wonder if it would do any good if they had an issue at one part of assembly and decided to hold a short meeting with the people involved and show them what is being delivered to the customer. Could pride come into play? I'd like to think so. Again, everything reflects on management and accountability. Maybe some big wheel going to a troublesome part of assembly and watching for any issues to sneak by would help and maybe voicing some concerns. Everybody wants to do a good job by nature. It's up to management to get it right.
I wonder when they had a company meeting to discuss any of the issues being delivered? Could be time well spent.
I wonder when they had a company meeting to discuss any of the issues being delivered? Could be time well spent.
Heartland's audit has it's own facility. Dozens of RVs stream through it daily. I don't know a lot about the process.
I don't know what the in-plant QA/QC processes are.
fredwrichardson
Past New Mexico Chapter Leader
You cannot audit or inspect quality into a product. You need a process that builds it right the first time. If you have to inspect then your process is not good. Also if you only audit how many go out the door with no audit. My Ashland is having it's door slide rebuilt for a second time. It was not done right the first or second time. I am a firm believer that REAL quality requires a total change in the way you build a product or service. W. Edwards Deming took japan from the worse quality to the best and he never used the words Quality Control. Quality is NOT a separate step in the process.
W. Edwards Deming offered 14 key principles for management to follow for significantly improving the effectiveness of a business or organization. Many of the principles are philosophical. Others are more programmatic. All are transformative in nature. The points were first presented in his book Out of the Crisis. Below is the condensation of the 14 Points for Management as they appeared in the book.
1. Create constancy of purpose toward improvement of product and service, with the aim to become competitive and to stay in business, and to provide jobs.
2. Adopt the new philosophy. We are in a new economic age. Western management must awaken to the challenge, must learn their responsibilities, and take on leadership for change.
3. Cease dependence on inspection to achieve quality. Eliminate the need for inspection on a mass basis by building quality into the product in the first place.
4. End the practice of awarding business on the basis of price tag. Instead, minimize total cost. Move toward a single supplier for any one item, on a long-term relationship of loyalty and trust.
5. Improve constantly and forever the system of production and service, to improve quality and productivity, and thus constantly decrease costs.
6. Institute training on the job.
7. Institute leadership (see Point 12 and Ch. 8). The aim of supervision should be to help people and machines and gadgets to do a better job. Supervision of management is in need of overhaul, as well as supervision of production workers.
8. Drive out fear, so that everyone may work effectively for the company (see Ch. 3).
9. Break down barriers between departments. People in research, design, sales, and production must work as a team, to foresee problems of production and in use that may be encountered with the product or service.
10. Eliminate slogans, exhortations, and targets for the work force asking for zero defects and new levels of productivity. Such exhortations only create adversarial relationships, as the bulk of the causes of low quality and low productivity belong to the system and thus lie beyond the power of the work force.
- Eliminate work standards (quotas) on the factory floor. Substitute leadership.
- Eliminate management by objective. Eliminate management by numbers, numerical goals. Substitute leadership.
12. Remove barriers that rob people in management and in engineering of their right to pride of workmanship. This means, inter alia, abolishment of the annual or merit rating and of management by objective (see Ch. 3).
13. Institute a vigorous program of education and self-improvement.
14. Put everybody in the company to work to accomplish the transformation. The transformation is everybody's job.
I have read this book many times for you have to rethink the steps or you end up making the same mistakes again. I used this process twice with two companies I was asked to try and fix. In one case we went from the worse supplier for Compaq computer to being the best and winning vendor of the year and it only took 18 months.
I will now get off my soap box.
Fred
