Quality - Some feedback for factory

[JanAndBill]

It costs the same to put a screw in properly as it does to over torque it and strip the hole.

Assuming you can find someone skilled enough to do so for the price of someone who isn't.

Simple statement, powerful point Oscar!!

You cannot audit or inspect quality into a product. You need a process that builds it right the first time.

Fred, you've also nailed it.

I think there is a slight misconception of the term "quality" with Heartland products. No matter what product you buy, from a $5 gadget to a $100k RV, you have a right to EXPECT that every manufacturing process in the construction of that item was done correctly. As Oscar pointed out, bad workmanship should never be tolerated, and as Fred pointed out, it's a process that starts at the very beginning, not the end.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is to much dependence on the dealers to correct things the RV manufacturers should have done right in the first place.

 

[jbeletti]

You cannot audit or inspect quality into a product. You need a process that builds it right the first time.

I agree with you Fred.

In my previous career in Procurement, I studied Deming's principals and others as I prepared myself for several professional certifications.

 

[porthole]

Despite their extraordinary, award winning quality, you don't hear too much about Motorola these days, do you.

Two sides of Motorola, all the farmed out consumer products and the commercial products.

Odds are pretty good just about and PD, fire or EMS rig you see has a Motorola radio in it.

 

[fredwrichardson]

Two sides of Motorola, all the farmed out consumer products and the commercial products.

Odds are pretty good just about and PD, fire or EMS rig you see has a Motorola radio in it.

Motorola was split into two companies in 2011. One division was sold to Google (wireless phones) and the other was sold to Lenovo (a China company). None of these transactions had to do with quality and everything to do with making money.

 

[danemayer]

Odds are pretty good just about and PD, fire or EMS rig you see has a Motorola radio in it.

Great example of a small customer set that is willing to pay more for high quality. Motorola meanwhile is a shadow of its former self.

Can you build an RV the way it was designed, with the devices selected by the designers, with everyone doing their job correctly? Yes, I think that is possible, and probably without adding cost. And yes, it would reduce warranty cost and improve customer satisfaction. Good place to start.

But when quality goes beyond tightening screws and moves into a discussion of design choices, it gets more difficult.

There are many, many examples of buyers being unwilling to pay for better quality. That's why I'm typing on a computer that uses non-parity memory instead of parity or ECC memory. So what if applications crash or the occasional bit flip changes the answer on a spreadsheet. 99.9% of buyers aren't willing to pay for the extra circuitry to make a higher quality product. Why am I typing on a crummy keyboard that doesn't have decent tactile feedback? Because the design that is better costs more to manufacture and buyers voted with their checkbooks back in the 1980s.

I think people often point to DRV as making a high quality luxury fifth wheel. Of course the price point is quite a bit higher than Landmark. For some reason, DRV was having trouble staying in business and was shopped out - purchased by Thor and now being managed by Heartland. Excel, the other company in that space was also in financial trouble and couldn't find a buyer. They closed their doors last month. So there apparently were some quality leaders in the RV space. But they also apparently didn't know how to deliver that higher quality without also having a higher price that not everyone would pay.

Some examples of the challenges any company might face:

Cabinetry is one area where people often ask for higher quality. Can you improve the quality of cabinetry without spending more money? I'm not a cabinetry expert, but somehow I doubt it. Are buyers willing to pay more? Some are, but maybe not everyone.

Can you improve the quality of heat distribution in a 40 foot long toy hauler so the garage doesn't need a space heater? No doubt it's possible. Can you do it without adding cost? Maybe less likely. Might take a significant redesign of the heating system. Is everyone ok with paying more for a larger furnace or a 2nd furnace? How about if it was located amidships and used up some space currently available for interior storage? It would help if the duct wasn't pinched, but fixing that problem probably isn't enough.

Can you improve quality of the cooling system in an RV without adding cost? Seems like it takes a 3rd A/C unit and a power control system. Sorry, that's not free.

Can you improve the quality of sound system and speakers? Sure. There are plenty of higher cost devices.

In the RV quality discussion, it usually goes way beyond simple manufacturing operations.

Again, can you build an RV the way it was designed, with the devices selected by the designers, with everyone doing their job correctly? That I think is possible, and probably without adding cost. And I think everyone would agree that's a good thing.

If you do that, will everyone agree you have a high quality product? Well, maybe that's different.

But working on getting everyone to do their job correctly is a good place to start.

 

[danemayer]

Motorola was split into two companies in 2011. One division was sold to Google (wireless phones) and the other was sold to Lenovo (a China company). None of these transactions had to do with quality and everything to do with making money.

Prior to the 2011 split, Motorola had a much more significant split in 2004, spinning of their semi-conductor business which became Freescale. Prior to that they had shed other parts of the business. They had wonderful quality but for some strange reason couldn't make a profit.

I can only guess at the reasons for Motorola's decline. But my point is that there's often no correlation between delivering high quality products and success in the marketplace.

 

[fredwrichardson]

Great example of a small customer set that is willing to pay more for high quality. Motorola meanwhile is a shadow of its former self.

Can you build an RV the way it was designed, with the devices selected by the designers, with everyone doing their job correctly? Yes, I think that is possible, and probably without adding cost. And yes, it would reduce warranty cost and improve customer satisfaction. Good place to start.

But when quality goes beyond tightening screws and moves into a discussion of design choices, it gets more difficult.

There are many, many examples of buyers being unwilling to pay for better quality. That's why I'm typing on a computer that uses non-parity memory instead of parity or ECC memory. So what if applications crash or the occasional bit flip changes the answer on a spreadsheet. 99.9% of buyers aren't willing to pay for the extra circuitry to make a higher quality product. Why am I typing on a crummy keyboard that doesn't have decent tactile feedback? Because the design that is better costs more to manufacture and buyers voted with their checkbooks back in the 1980s.

I think people often point to DRV as making a high quality luxury fifth wheel. Of course the price point is quite a bit higher than Landmark. For some reason, DRV was having trouble staying in business and was shopped out - purchased by Thor and now being managed by Heartland. Excel, the other company in that space was also in financial trouble and couldn't find a buyer. They closed their doors last month. So there apparently were some quality leaders in the RV space. But they also apparently didn't know how to deliver that higher quality without also having a higher price that not everyone would pay.

Some examples of the challenges any company might face:

Cabinetry is one area where people often ask for higher quality. Can you improve the quality of cabinetry without spending more money? I'm not a cabinetry expert, but somehow I doubt it. Are buyers willing to pay more? Some are, but maybe not everyone.

Can you improve the quality of heat distribution in a 40 foot long toy hauler so the garage doesn't need a space heater? No doubt it's possible. Can you do it without adding cost? Maybe less likely. Might take a significant redesign of the heating system. Is everyone ok with paying more for a larger furnace or a 2nd furnace? How about if it was located amidships and used up some space currently available for interior storage? It would help if the duct wasn't pinched, but fixing that problem probably isn't enough.

Can you improve quality of the cooling system in an RV without adding cost? Seems like it takes a 3rd A/C unit and a power control system. Sorry, that's not free.

Can you improve the quality of sound system and speakers? Sure. There are plenty of higher cost devices.

In the RV quality discussion, it usually goes way beyond simple manufacturing operations.

Again, can you build an RV the way it was designed, with the devices selected by the designers, with everyone doing their job correctly? That I think is possible, and probably without adding cost. And I think everyone would agree that's a good thing.

If you do that, will everyone agree you have a high quality product? Well, maybe that's different.

But working on getting everyone to do their job correctly is a good place to start.

Well said.

 

['Lil Guy']

Great example of a small customer set that is willing to pay more for high quality. Motorola meanwhile is a shadow of its former self.

Can you build an RV the way it was designed, with the devices selected by the designers, with everyone doing their job correctly? Yes, I think that is possible, and probably without adding cost. And yes, it would reduce warranty cost and improve customer satisfaction. Good place to start.

But when quality goes beyond tightening screws and moves into a discussion of design choices, it gets more difficult.

There are many, many examples of buyers being unwilling to pay for better quality. That's why I'm typing on a computer that uses non-parity memory instead of parity or ECC memory. So what if applications crash or the occasional bit flip changes the answer on a spreadsheet. 99.9% of buyers aren't willing to pay for the extra circuitry to make a higher quality product. Why am I typing on a crummy keyboard that doesn't have decent tactile feedback? Because the design that is better costs more to manufacture and buyers voted with their checkbooks back in the 1980s.

I think people often point to DRV as making a high quality luxury fifth wheel. Of course the price point is quite a bit higher than Landmark. For some reason, DRV was having trouble staying in business and was shopped out - purchased by Thor and now being managed by Heartland. Excel, the other company in that space was also in financial trouble and couldn't find a buyer. They closed their doors last month. So there apparently were some quality leaders in the RV space. But they also apparently didn't know how to deliver that higher quality without also having a higher price that not everyone would pay.

Some examples of the challenges any company might face:

Cabinetry is one area where people often ask for higher quality. Can you improve the quality of cabinetry without spending more money? I'm not a cabinetry expert, but somehow I doubt it. Are buyers willing to pay more? Some are, but maybe not everyone.

Can you improve the quality of heat distribution in a 40 foot long toy hauler so the garage doesn't need a space heater? No doubt it's possible. Can you do it without adding cost? Maybe less likely. Might take a significant redesign of the heating system. Is everyone ok with paying more for a larger furnace or a 2nd furnace? How about if it was located amidships and used up some space currently available for interior storage? It would help if the duct wasn't pinched, but fixing that problem probably isn't enough.

Can you improve quality of the cooling system in an RV without adding cost? Seems like it takes a 3rd A/C unit and a power control system. Sorry, that's not free.

Can you improve the quality of sound system and speakers? Sure. There are plenty of higher cost devices.

In the RV quality discussion, it usually goes way beyond simple manufacturing operations.

Again, can you build an RV the way it was designed, with the devices selected by the designers, with everyone doing their job correctly? That I think is possible, and probably without adding cost. And I think everyone would agree that's a good thing.

If you do that, will everyone agree you have a high quality product? Well, maybe that's different.

But working on getting everyone to do their job correctly is a good place to start.

I don't think the issue is higher end devices. If you've got the bucks, you can certainly achieve that. I think the issues I'm reading about are just plain careless assembly practices. A hydrolic system for $500.00 or $50,000 is still a problem if it leaks due to bad connections. Remove a panel and find drops and debris that wasn't cleaned up at last station has nothing to due with money. Stripped out screws and facia falling off has nothing to due with whether it's high end or just plain Jane cabinetry. People may add another A/C unit but they're not complaining about the manufacturing process because they need another unit. There shouldn't be any leaks in a new unit with the plumbing either and engineering or the lack of. Would you build a plane and not know where the center of gravity is? It can't fly if it's tail heavy. I still can't imagine how HL released a Bighorn with the axles that far off. They're making it right but that really makes them look bad. They didn't even take the initiative to weigh the thing or put numbers together to see if it would fly. A person that designed that and didn't pay attention to how he was moving the weight around would be down the road looking for a job.
There just seems to be a lot of complaints of shoddy workmanship. You accept the quality of the appliances, furniture, woodwork and floor plan when you pick out your unit. You just don't want all of the minor issues that seem to be popping up here.

With that said, my 2 units have been pretty good to us and I will be acquiring a Bighorn in the near future. When I do make the purchase, I expect it to tow safely the 1st time. I don't want to spend that kind of money and have it hauled back for major issues. We'll do our part with a good PDI and I'm sure HL will give us another great rig.
We need HL to stay in business and the only way to do that is to turn a profit. Just don't shortchange anyone with the simple fixes. I also think the dealers need to step up here. They're responsible for a lot of these issues during make ready. And again, I dont' know the percentage of the complaints, as in 1 in a 100?
I hope Heartland doesn't read this. They may not honor any warranty issues I might encounter down the road.lol

 

[JanAndBill]

I don't think the issue is higher end devices. If you've got the bucks, you can certainly achieve that. I think the issues I'm reading about are just plain careless assembly practices. A hydrolic system for $500.00 or $50,000 is still a problem if it leaks due to bad connections. Remove a panel and find drops and debris that wasn't cleaned up at last station has nothing to due with money. Stripped out screws and facia falling off has nothing to due with whether it's high end or just plain Jane cabinetry. People may add another A/C unit but they're not complaining about the manufacturing process because they need another unit. There shouldn't be any leaks in a new unit with the plumbing either and engineering or the lack of. Would you build a plane and not know where the center of gravity is? It can't fly if it's tail heavy. I still can't imagine how HL released a Bighorn with the axles that far off. They're making it right but that really makes them look bad. They didn't even take the initiative to weigh the thing or put numbers together to see if it would fly. A person that designed that and didn't pay attention to how he was moving the weight around would be down the road looking for a job.
There just seems to be a lot of complaints of shoddy workmanship. You accept the quality of the appliances, furniture, woodwork and floor plan when you pick out your unit. You just don't want all of the minor issues that seem to be popping up here.

With that said, my 2 units have been pretty good to us and I will be acquiring a Bighorn in the near future. When I do make the purchase, I expect it to tow safely the 1st time. I don't want to spend that kind of money and have it hauled back for major issues. We'll do our part with a good PDI and I'm sure HL will give us another great rig.
We need HL to stay in business and the only way to do that is to turn a profit. Just don't shortchange anyone with the simple fixes. I also think the dealers need to step up here. They're responsible for a lot of these issues during make ready. And again, I dont' know the percentage of the complaints, as in 1 in a 100?
I hope Heartland doesn't read this. They may not honor any warranty issues I might encounter down the road.lol

Thank you Baker, same thing I said earlier. The quality issues with our BH were not with the materials, appliances, etc. that went into the coach, it was with the workmanship. Cabinet doors that fell apart, furnace ducts kinked, doors that weren't adjusted so they would close, broken vent pipe on the gray tank because they just shoved it up and fastened it without checking for clearance and breaking it off in the process, tank valves that wouldn't work because the cables weren't properly routed. We also had the construction mess left to deal with.

Another thing that was irritating to me, was when I opened the basement access to work on a tank cable problem, it was a rats nest of wires, cables, water lines etc. with stuff going every direction, and just thrown on top of each other. It seems to me that someone building multiple units of the same models, could actually save money if they spent a little time engineering a pre-made wiring harness instead of just throwing everything in haphazardly. The way mine was, I had to move and reroute some things as there were wires that were pulled taunt by the weight of other stuff piled on them. As to the water lines, it's no wonder so many have leaks, as they are put in the same as the wiring, no thought as to organization or support for the lines.

 

[fredwrichardson]

Thank you Baker, same thing I said earlier. The quality issues with our BH were not with the materials, appliances, etc. that went into the coach, it was with the workmanship. Cabinet doors that fell apart, furnace ducts kinked, doors that weren't adjusted so they would close, broken vent pipe on the gray tank because they just shoved it up and fastened it without checking for clearance and breaking it off in the process, tank valves that wouldn't work because the cables weren't properly routed. We also had the construction mess left to deal with.

Another thing that was irritating to me, was when I opened the basement access to work on a tank cable problem, it was a rats nest of wires, cables, water lines etc. with stuff going every direction, and just thrown on top of each other. It seems to me that someone building multiple units of the same models, could actually save money if they spent a little time engineering a pre-made wiring harness instead of just throwing everything in haphazardly. The way mine was, I had to move and reroute some things as there were wires that were pulled taunt by the weight of other stuff piled on them. As to the water lines, it's no wonder so many have leaks, as they are put in the same as the wiring, no thought as to organization or support for the lines.

This post is a very important one and I want to keep it alive. My New (never been used) Ashland has now been in the repair shop since February 19th. The living room door side slide failed only after about 8 uses. After being at the repair shop for a month they said it was repaired. Took it home ran the slide in and out and it sounded ruff. Did it one more time and had a large pop noise and the slide stopped working again. Each time it failed it broke off gears. They claim this slide can go 4,000 uses without failure. So if the design is good then the assembly is wrong. The fact that it did not get fixed when repaired also means the procedure to fix is wrong. Another Ashland owner also had the same slide fail three time. Each one breaking gears. He finally fixed it himself by shimming the slide with metal washers so the gears stay engaged. Again he had to alter the design of the slide to make it work. So is it a assembly problem or is it a design problem or maybe it is both. The real problem is that if I was the manufacturer I would have my design team and assembly team all over this to find out why their product is not working. Instead my unit sits in a repair shop (not Heartland) trying to figure what is wrong. This is not just bad quality but is NO quality. Hope to have a RV that I can actually use soon but the last email was they were still "working on the game plan". Heartland needs to address these issues or the old saying that it takes a lifetime to build a good reputation and about 5 minutes to get a bad one is going to eat them alive.

 

[fredwrichardson]

Looks like this thread is being censored. Just checked new posts and it does not even show up even when the last post was an hour ago. It shows posts that are over two hour old and older but this thread is not showing. Very disappointed in Heartland.

I guess I am just talking to myself but as a very unhappy owner of a Landmark Ashland the quickest way to shut me up is to fix my RV. Not allowing us to vent will do you poorly in the long run. I have also screen captured all of this ***

 

[codycarver]

Here is a link to the forum rules.

//heartlandowners.org/showthread.ph...nt-amp-Terms-of-Use-Policy-udpated-6-APR-2010

If posts are being censored it's probably because one or more of them are being violated.

 

[jimtoo]

Looks like this thread is being censored. Just checked new posts and it does not even show up even when the last post was an hour ago. It shows posts that are over two hour old and older but this thread is not showing. Very disappointed in Heartland.

I guess I am just talking to myself but as a very unhappy owner of a Landmark Ashland the quickest way to shut me up is to fix my RV. Not allowing us to vent will do you poorly in the long run. I have also screen captured all of this if it ever goes to litigation and I hope it does not.

Just to let you know,, this thread is not being censored. Yet. Any litigation threats and it will be deleted. If it was being edited you would know it by an add-on remark in the post that was edited. This thread has been viewed 1,662 times since it was started. If no one makes a post to the thread it will not come back on YOUR "What's New" link once you have viewed the last post, whether the post is made by you or someone else.

Jim M

 

[danemayer]

Fred,

You were the last person to post, so you've already seen your last post. That being the case, nothing's going to show up when you press What's New (it does show up for others). That's how the software works.

I don't see any deleted posts in this thread. I did edit a few words out of your very last post to comply with forum rules.

 

[JohnDar]

Unless someone else posts a comment after yours, you won't see your post or the thread unless you go to your profile page and call up your activity.

 

[fredwrichardson]

Unless someone else posts a comment after yours, you won't see your post or the thread unless you go to your profile page and call up your activity.

When your post is posted and approved by the moderator it shows up on the New Posts on the top line and in your activity area. You do not need for someone to post after you do. I use to run a forum using the same software so I am very aware how it works. Also based on I am posting after you then it should be showing up on New Posts. Go take a look.

 

[fredwrichardson]

I just checked new posts and this thread is no where to be seen and it has had more activity in the last hour than most of the threads there. I really do not want to argue this but at the same time I am very unhappy with this cover up. I'm done.

 

['Lil Guy']

OK, so now we have 2 Landmarks with slide issues. Both seem to be with the gears not meshing properly. That's 2 out of a bazillion of them. I can feel your pain on a new high end RV. Maybe at assembly something was installed a little off that created this on these 2 units. If they installed new gears and they stripped again, then you should be looking at the best way to correct the gear engagement, whether with shims or however. Again, sounds like new gears aren't going to correct the issue. I'd be talking to the service department where your rig is and explain about the engagement and use of shims. That could be a simple fix and you could go on down the road. The great thing about this forum is people who have an issue report their experience and fix. The other guy stated he fixed the engagement issue with shims. That's not a redesign, it's a repair. Tell your service hands to look at the gears and see if they can't better the gear engagement. It fixed the other one.

Good luck with your repair and watch out for these moderators. They're tough. Especially the one that goes by Cookie. At our last rally, he was walking around the 'Lil Guy' and taking notes. He told us our rig was too small and made us take the Heartland sticker off because of its size. Later I posted a thread about his frying the potatoes in bearing grease and he immediately deleted my post. I'm done too.
Bwa ha ha ha ha. Just kidding, I had a fever and the only cure was more cow bells or fried potatoes, even if they were fried in axle grease.

 

[porthole]

When your post is posted and approved by the moderator it shows up on the New Posts on the top line and in your activity area. You do not need for someone to post after you do. I use to run a forum using the same software so I am very aware how it works. Also based on I am posting after you then it should be showing up on New Posts. Go take a look.

I just checked new posts and this thread is no where to be seen and it has had more activity in the last hour than most of the threads there. I really do not want to argue this but at the same time I am very unhappy with this cover up. I'm done.

I don't run any forums, but I do know that at least with the 6 years of use with this one that:

Moderators do not approve posts. You write, hit submit, it is posted.

If it is in violation, it would be edited or removed by the first mod to see it.

Posts usually do not get deleted unless they are a gross violation of the rules
Usually you would get a notice of deletion from the moderator that deleted it

Some posts get edited to follow the rules and sometimes those moderators will note that the post was edited (see JimToo's edit above)

Some moderators seem to have a different level of tolerance or understanding on some topics and rules and may be a bit heavy fingered with the delete button. I am against censorship but understand why it happens on occasion. And when I don't agree - I will call it out. Although like most business's, management tends to follow along with subordinates and back them up

I think in my use here that overall, HL and been fairly flexible with allowing what is posted here, kudos and complaints.

Sunnybrook shut down the Sunnybrook users forum overnight for far less. Logged on one day and posted, next morning - vapor. Took several days to find out since everything related to the forum was gone.

I never log out of this forum. But whenever I come back on, my own last post will not show up as a new post when I click that button. If my wife goes on under her screen name my post will show up.

The thread will only show up under whats new, under your log in if someone else makes a post.

If you have your notifications set right, the first person to make a post will get you an email with that post, even if it was deleted.

BTW, anytime I make a post that I think might be controversial - I copy, paste and send it to myself before hitting the submit button.
Another way to keep a copy for yourself is to submit then immediately quote, copy and email to your self.


Don't take this a support for general censorship, I don't like it. But we are in their house and we are not paying to subscribers, so their rules.

Now on to your trailer, I feel for you on that. No doubt the growth in the past 5 years has shown up on the assembly line. Issues like you are currently experiencing along with everything else I follow, is what is keeping the Cyclone behind the Ford.

And as long as bean counters, corporate officers, engineering, designers, fabricators, builders and assembly line folks do not go camping, we will continue to experience countless little issues that just make no sense to the end users.

 

[JohnDar]

Thanks, Duane. I knew I wasn't under the influence of recreational pharmaceuticals. Funny how we're all reading his rants, though.


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