Ive read in various threads that the rear bumpers on Sundance fifth wheels are not designed to mount a receiver hitch to for a small trailer. I have a 2011 Sundance 2900 MK. I plan on towing a small boat, or trailer with 2 quads. Anyone have any thoughts, or advice, on this topic?
Towing behind a fifth wheel
- Thread starter Rooskie
- Start date
MurrayN.
Well-known member
I agree with Kbvols. The bumper on a Sundance is good for nothing other than storing your sewer hose in. I bolted to bike rack to the frame just in front of the bumper and it works fine. I am now trying to figure out if I can attach a larger deck with a support castor wheel that I can put my motorcycle on for next years major summer trip. Swivel Wheel makes a kit but I am sure that I can do it cheaper. Be advised though that anything that you attach onto the frame in any way will void your Lippert frame warranty.
Bob&Patty
Founders of SoCal Chapter
You better check your state laws on this. Double towing is some times a NO NO. The other issue is, if the trailer does not have brakes on it....will your TV and Sundance stop all the extra weight. How about backing up, it will tough with a short trailer behind your Sundance. Being a small trailer...can you see it if you get a flat or your load comes loose. Things to ponder.
Double trailer state laws are inconsistent. A general overview can be seen on this map, but some of the "Allowed" states have special restrictions, like California, Michigan, Wisconson, etc.
I'm not going into details here. Just overview.
Here is my rig (which is good in about 25 states).
When the second trailer only weighs 500 pounds (fully loaded), no need for welding. Welding always voids the warranty (it can destroy the strength of the steel in the trailer frame).
Technically, what I'm doing also voids the frame and bumper warranty, but they won't find any weld marks to prove it.
GOTTOYS
Well-known member
Over on another forum there has been pictures of the whole "bumper" falling off with just a bike rack rack attached to it. They just aren't designed to carry much more than a sewer hose. I would NEVER trust that light gauge "bumper" enough to attach a hitch to it. In the interest of everyone's safety..get some reinforcements welded to it. If you don't believe me, bring it to a good welding shop and get their opinion of how strong it is...Don
GOTTOYS,
Thank you for your opinion on the "sewer hose" strength of Heartland trailer bumpers. Specifically my 2014 Wilderness 2175 RB.
Thank you for telling us what you will and won't trust with respect to bumpers and your evaluation of the gauge of steel from which they are manufactured. (What is light gauge?)
And lastly, thank you for telling me to get some reinforcements welded to it.
I assume you have expert design specifications with which to back up your opinions and commands. Please provide so I can further evaluate.
Until then, don't follow me too close.
My personal opinion is that this is not a light gauge weld, but then what do I know?
Incidentally, if Heartland has manufactured the bumpers from high strength steel for weight reduction and then stress relieved the weld all the way around, full penetration, additional welding will weaken the original weld unless it is properly stress relieved. That would get hot enough to torch the fiberglass body of my Wilderness.
Let's just say welding ain't going to happen on my Wilderness.
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TandT
Founding Utah Chapter Leaders-Retired
Swivel Wheel, Idaho Tote and similar devices are attached at two points on the rear of your rig.
They do not pivot side to side and therefore technically are not considered trailers.
They are platforms with tag wheels.
According to the mfgrs, in most states they are not considered tandem towing.
Trace
They do not pivot side to side and therefore technically are not considered trailers.
They are platforms with tag wheels.
According to the mfgrs, in most states they are not considered tandem towing.
Trace
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ucwinters
Active Member
I have a Curt bolt-on hitch on my rear bumper - pull a Burgman 650 cc scooter that weighs 600 # on a Kendon trailer behind my trailer w/o any problems. Friend's father-in-law has the same hitch on his SOB 5th wheel that he's using to pull a bass boat w/o any problem. http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200317256_200317256 will show you a pic of the Curt hitch.
My bolt on hitch came from the dealer that sold me my new 2014 Wilderness 2175. Ratings are the same as the Curt. I don't anticipate any problem towing a 500 pound boat and trailer.
twinpartners
Member
Guys/Gals. Not necessary to bolt a receiver hitch to your bumper. As mentioned by many, its probably not a good idea. The BEST idea IMHO if you want to tow behind a 5th wheel or Camper Trailer is to get/buy/bolt on the CURT 13703 Class III Receiver Hitch that installs right on the I-Beam frame of your Heartland RV. This tow package uses the strength of bolting straight on to your frame. All you have to calculate is that you do not exceed GVWR of your axles/springs and tires. You can move it as far forward as you need to get it closer to the axles and use a hitch extender to get the 2" receiver as far back as you need so you can hook up. Much much safer if you want to double-tow, use a swivel wheel, or even to load bikes or whatever. No need to worry if the bumper will hold the added weight, because you won't be using it. When you are done towing, just take out the hitch extender and you are back to normal. Pin weight is rated at 350 lbs and towing weight is rated at 3250 lbs. This is plenty and only a max of 350 more lbs of force will be added to the frame/axles/tires. This is as safe as it gets. Of course, you will have some nay sayers because they just don't want you to tow anything, period. But as far as safety goes...much better than trying to use the bumper. My CURT 13702 is mounted on the outside of the I-Beam (just flip the frame mount to attach to the outside instead of the inside) just in-between where the bumper is welded to the frame and the rear auto jacks. It fits perfectly and I use a 24" extender. I custom ordered a 48 foot long trailer light wire harness extension that has a 4 pin to 4 pin. I hook one end into my truck's 4 pin adapter and the other end (48 feet later) to the trailer. So, no need for any complicated wiring either. My 5th wheel lighting hooks up as normal and the back trailer to the 4 pin adapter. My setup works as designed (I use a smart-trailer swivel wheel) and I haul our 4 wheelers or motorized golf cart whenever we want them. If I can ever figure out how to attach pictures, I can post them. Or, just send me a message and I can send them. Very very very safe and all within manufacturer's specifications.
You have still voided the Heartland chassis warranty by towing another trailer behind the Heartland trailer. They are not designed for that, no matter how you bolt on, frame or bumper.
Either way, you are compromising the design safety factor of the original trailer design.
The CURT 13703 is a good solution if you don't trust your trailer's bumper, but now you have to trust your trailer's ability to overload the frame or chassis.
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twinpartners
Member
Ok, my warranty has already expired. I totally understand that you are allowed to have your opinion and please please do not think I am starting a heated debate with you, but here is some food for thought that might ease your fear: the tongue weight capacity of the CURT 13703 is 350 lbs. That means you are only adding 350 lbs more downward force to your 36 foot long I-BEAM. It is mounted on two I-BEAMS which means that you are only adding a maximum of 175 lbs on each I-BEAM. The BAR that mounts between them is actually reinforcing the I-BEAMs at that point. The GVWR of my 3000RK allows me to haul a total of 12,150 lbs and the GAVR of each axle is rated at 6000 lbs each. The brakes are designed to stop all of that weight. The empty-weight of my RK without anything in it is 9,350 lbs. So even if I had clothes, food, beer, and a little grey/fresh/black water while traveling, that still will not max out or come close to the GVWR/GAVR mentioned above while towing a 610 lb golf cart/ATV. Plus, the swivel wheel (or normal trailer) takes on its own weight at its own axle, therefore reducing the tongue weight (downward force) that the I-BEAM frame would have to take. When you do the math and understand the thickness of the I-BEAM and the weight it is designed to carry, a lot of the nay sayers are drastically over estimating the force that the I-BEAMs will have to hold. This is entirely safe. Most of the toy haulers today that are 45 ft long have merely extended the I-BEAM the extra length. I've seen them with my own eyes. They are not reinforced or any thicker than my RK, they are only longer. Some of them are still on the same two axles that I have because the overall weight is still under the GAVR of 6000 lbs on each axle. The only ones that add the third axle are those that have washer/dryer, extra fridge, and bathroom in the rear. But all they added was an axle and did not add thicker I-BEAMs. They are just extended and the axles moved farther back and added the extra pin weight to the truck. That frame is designed to hold a specific weight as are the axles and the brakes are designed to stop that weight. As long as you are operating within that GVWR/GAWR and you are reinforcing the frame via a steel bar that spans across, any engineer would sign off on that design. If this were a real safety issue the US NHTSA would have banned it from the market and you could not buy it. As long as you are operating within the design specifications of the CURT 13703 and are within the GVWR/GAVR of the RV, you are safe. MUCH safer than adding a hitch to your bumper. Again, all of this only IMHO, just like you with yours. In the end, its up to the owner. Another thought: I called several Camping Worlds and the renowned Lazy...ys in Florida and they all gave me an estimate to have it installed. Would they really go that far as to charge me to install it if they did not believe my RV could handle it?
Did I not state that the CURT 13703 is a good solution?
Yet you state you are trying to "ease my fear".
I say "What fear?" I'll drive behind your rig without fear. I'm sure your RV dealer put together a good package for your requirements.
But it still voids the Heartland warranty. Heartland has to protect themselves and I understand that.
Even if I only tow 100 pounds behind my Wilderness, technically it voids my warranty.
Maybe it changes the design safety factor from 2.00 to 1.99. Nobody but the lawyers care about that.
As a registered professional engineer, I would not sign off on your "reinforcing the frame" assumption.
Design calculations for bending moments, stress intensification factors at bolt holes, etc. are necessary to support the modified frame design.
Also, the CURT assembly weighs 100 pounds. Do you subtract that 100 pounds from the rated tounge weight of 350 pounds? Does that leave you with 250 pounds tounge weight?
If you load your travel trailer to the max. and then add the max rating on the CURT 13703, what happens then?
The way it is written, I think the Heartland warranty voiding only happens on trailers towed behind your Heartland.
This brings up the issue of what happens when you strap on 500 pounds of cement blocks to the following cargo carrier from Northern Tools?
If I saw that with 500 pounds of cement blocks on the bumper of a travel trailer ahead of me, then I would have FEAR!
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Just like Chevy in the good old days (my generation). "Body by Fisher".
I strongly suspect there are a few members here that are old enough to remember that.
OK. I stand corrected. Frame warranty by Lippert.
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