Truck Upgrade Help

[Gzopete]

Here is the deal a new truck is out of the question. We have A 2004 Chevy 2500 CC D/A Short bed with a superglide 18k hitch.

We will be getting a 3210 real soon. Now on its face everything should be inline as to weight. Under my 15000# max. I have 3400# tires on the truck.

I am going to add airbags and a add a leaf.

Now Chevy has to know something we don't know. Lets take the max 5er weight of 15000# take 25% of that and you get 3750# + the dry weight of the truck is 6600# that is a total of 10350# that is 750# over that is before you put any fuel or anybody in the truck. This truck seats 5 plus has a towing capacity 12000# ball and 15000# 5er. Should they not put this stuff together should it only have a place for a driver? Do I leave my family behind? I know they just build this stuff and let us sort this stuff out for ourselves. Look at the Explorer sport you put four people in it it is overweight. Is that safe should Ford not of build this SUV?

I didn't put this stuff to be lectured I know this is maxing my truck and yes I should have a 1 ton.

What I am asking what can I do to make this a safer experience.

 

[ct0218]

The pin weight will vary as a percent based on what is put where in relation to the axles. It can be from 15% to 25%, so travelling w/o water, etc., is advisable. Most people carry far more junk than they need (me included), so evaluate your load in both the trailer and the truck. Your truck is most likely a little heavier than the 6600 you state, but you will have to weigh at a truck scale like CAT scales at a truck stop to get your true weights for the combination. It would be good to weigh the truck separate and not have to unhitch there unless they are not busy. Once you have actual numbers you can evaluate your true condition. Keeping as much of the heavy gear near the axles will help, as will using light weight gear whenever possible--like light glasses, dinnerware, folding chairs, etc. A few pounds here and a few there do add up. The extra leaf and airbag will help it sit more level, but not increase your carrying capacity so all you can do is pare down the weight in the trailer and truck. Again, the key is getting true weights. You may not be in as bad a shape as you think.

 

[rckc228]

Why would you want to be so close to max. You may be able to pull it but stopping is another matter.

 

[cookie]

Why did you use 25% as your calculated pin weight? You can be between 15% and 25%. So if you average that at 20% your estimated pin weight will be 3,000#, right where you want to be. You can figure all you want, but the only way to know your true weights is to weigh your truck, both axles, with full fuel and passengers. Then weight the whole rig loaded for travel on a CAT scale that will weigh both axles on the truck and the trailer. You will then know your true trailer axle and both truck axle weights. From ther you will know your actual pin weight. Oh, and stopping it won't be a problem.
Peace
Dave

 

[katkens]

Why did you use 25% as your calculated pin weight? You can be between 15% and 25%. So if you average that at 20% your estimated pin weight will be 3,000#, right where you want to be. You can figure all you want, but the only way to know your true weights is to weigh your truck, both axles, with full fuel and passengers. Then weight the whole rig loaded for travel on a CAT scale that will weigh both axles on the truck and the trailer. You will then know your true trailer axle and both truck axle weights. From ther you will know your actual pin weight. Oh, and stopping it won't be a problem.
Peace
Dave

I agree with Dave and as far as stopping the 2500 /3500 have the same brakes. I don't see the need for the extra leaf , just add the air bags if desired......Kenny

 

[jmgratz]

I have been told the frame, suspension and brakes are larger on the 350 than the 250. I dont know about Dodge or Chevy.

 

[truknutt]

Here is the deal a new truck is out of the question. We have A 2004 Chevy 2500 CC D/A Short bed with a superglide 18k hitch.

We will be getting a 3210 real soon. Now on its face everything should be inline as to weight. Under my 15000# max. I have 3400# tires on the truck.

Gzo,

Clear something up for me..when you say a 3210, are you talking Cyclone 3210? Before I drone on about the weights you're using in your calculations I want to be sure this is the 5er you are talking about.

 

[Bob&Patty]

Gozpete, the 3210 has a gross weight rating of 18K. My TV has the same GCVW rating as your's. 22K, so your not even close to being able to tow legally. Your TV fully loaded, ready to go will be about 7K + or -. The 3210 completely empty will be about 12K or so, depending on how it is equipped. That puts you at 19K. There are many threads on the forum that address this issue. Please do more research on weights and state laws. Your GCVW by using the gross weight of the 3210 and TV would be about 25K. It would be "no way Jose in California". You would need a 45 or 5500 to pull it. my 2 cts. Bob

 

[Gzopete]

Truknutt: Yes its a Cyclone 3210 as for calculations I was just showing max....

I know experience is worth A LOT! That is why I posted I am not going to write but....

GMC and other truck companies put these max weights for TV and towable as what not to exceed. I plan on running under my 15k that will leave me about 2k give or take. Would I be crazy to exceed these weights I would have to say yes. Would a 1 ton be better YES.... I am going to tow what the truck says it can tow. Is it close to Max yes Do Truck companies test this stuff out I would hope they do. Is there a safety margin in there (I am not an engineer) I bet there is 10% or more.

I plan on stopping in Las Vegas to weight at a CAT scale.

Bob: As for California and the CHP are they going to pull me over just by looking at me and assume that I have 18K in that 5er? I am from Mexifornia. We got out about 2 years ago and going back for our last time for A LONG TIME...

We plan on having the bare minimum in the trailer. We are going to grow into this unit not out. I plan on getting a new truck in the near future. I am one of only a few ppl that doesn't have a 4x4 in my new town.

rckc228: Do you have a 1 ton or bigger you would like to give me?

 

[katkens]

Gzo,

Clear something up for me..when you say a 3210, are you talking Cyclone 3210? Before I drone on about the weights you're using in your calculations I want to be sure this is the 5er you are talking about.

Heck, I thought it was a Sundance......BIG difference.....Kenny

 

[jnbhobe]

Whats the matter Kenny ?? Toooo many numbers for ya. Finally cleared it up for me !! JON

 

[katkens]

Whats the matter Kenny ?? Toooo many numbers for ya. Finally cleared it up for me !! JON

I'm telling ya getting real hard to compute all these new numbers they keep coming out with , causing mental glitches for sure.....Hope the old brain is rested before my next post.......Kenny

 

[Bob&Patty]

GZO, as far as the CHP, maybe yes-maybe no. The old farts they dont bother too much. Just the 20 year olds pulling a 4012 with a 1/2 TN Honda.

 

[jpjulian]

Truknutt: Yes its a Cyclone 3210 as for calculations I was just showing max....

I know experience is worth A LOT! That is why I posted I am not going to write but....

GMC and other truck companies put these max weights for TV and towable as what not to exceed. I plan on running under my 15k that will leave me about 2k give or take. Would I be crazy to exceed these weights I would have to say yes. Would a 1 ton be better YES.... I am going to tow what the truck says it can tow. Is it close to Max yes Do Truck companies test this stuff out I would hope they do. Is there a safety margin in there (I am not an engineer) I bet there is 10% or more.

I plan on stopping in Las Vegas to weight at a CAT scale.

Bob: As for California and the CHP are they going to pull me over just by looking at me and assume that I have 18K in that 5er? I am from Mexifornia. We got out about 2 years ago and going back for our last time for A LONG TIME...

We plan on having the bare minimum in the trailer. We are going to grow into this unit not out. I plan on getting a new truck in the near future. I am one of only a few ppl that doesn't have a 4x4 in my new town.

rckc228: Do you have a 1 ton or bigger you would like to give me?

As a retired State Trooper who spent the major of my career concentrating on truck enforcement, yeah it's possible for you to get stopped for being overloaded. The specialty unit I worked with was very, VERY good at finding overloaded vehicles. RV's are not exempt either. The overweight fines here in Illinois are truly obscene as any professional truck drivers on this forum will attest. It sounds as if you are trying your level best to keep things safe with the bags and extra spring. Just remember that adding that equipment will not increase your GVWR or GCWR or Rear AWR. Good luck and have fun.

Joe

 

[Shadowchek]

I wouldn't touch a cyclone without at least a one ton probably a dually at that. That may just be me though.

Greg

 

[wyleyrabbit]

I've heard that in my neck of the woods (BC, Canada), the police hunt down anything that even looks overweight. A 2500 pulling a toy hauler is almost guaranteed to be overweight for a 3/4 ton truck, as is a very large 5er. I don't know what the fines are, and I honestly hope I never find out.

 

[Gzopete]

As a retired State Trooper who spent the major of my career concentrating on truck enforcement, yeah it's possible for you to get stopped for being overloaded. The specialty unit I worked with was very, VERY good at finding overloaded vehicles. RV's are not exempt either. The overweight fines here in Illinois are truly obscene as any professional truck drivers on this forum will attest. It sounds as if you are trying your level best to keep things safe with the bags and extra spring. Just remember that adding that equipment will not increase your GVWR or GCWR or Rear AWR. Good luck and have fun.

Joe

Ok I've done some research and what i've found,
It seem A LOT of ppl are pulling Cyclones with 3500 or lets say 1 tons
The Cyclones have a GVWR of 18,000# and ppl have posted the new sticker says 20,000#
I've looked at Max load for a fifth wheel pull by Dodge 17,000, Ford 17,700, and GMC 15,900 These are all Duel Wheel 1 Ton's
So Joe what you are you saying correct me if I am wrong. That if these ppl using these TV are pulled over the Trooper is going to assume that the trailer is loaded to the MAX and give these ppl a ticket for being overweight?

I don't plan on putting 5000# in my Cyclone 3210 right off the bat. Like I've said in the past we are going to grow into this unit not out....
Lets assume that the unit come in at 13000# Dry That leave me 2500# as my 2500 has a fifth wheel rating of 15500# and a max weight of 22000#.

I have asked and no one has given me an answer:
Please explain something to me if the truck is rated to pull a 5er of 15500# and take the max of 25% pin weight that should be for the 15.5K thats 3875# + 6600# dry weight of truck thats 10475# that is 1275# over without putting any passengers fuel or hitch. Explain why would GM puts a pull rating of 15.5K on a truck that couldn't pull that weight legally? With the numbers I used above yes the truck would be over weight but I would still be under the 22k rating for the truck and trailer.

(2500HD Crew Cab RWD SB 6.6L TDI V-8 15,500) right out of the towing guide for 2004

Lets look at real world weights the manual for the truck says max pin weight of 2500#. Lets take the number I used above but lets use 15% that is 2325# + 6600# empty truck = 8925 + 189.8 fuel = 9114.8# That leaves a massive 85# for your hitch and passengers. Can anyone figure this out and explain these number better.

Ok the rating on the door says 9200 GVWR, FRT 4410 GAWR RR 6084 GAWR the tires that came with the truck were rated for 3100# as I remember I have a little larger E tire of 3400# seem like the rear end without weighing it would be 2000# empty so anything in the 3500# range with passengers fuel and pin and hitch should be fine.

I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE THINKING!!!! what about stopping!!!
#1 if your trailer brakes are working the way they should the trailer is pulling on the TV. right?

#2 if your brakes fail and you TV has to stop that 15k of dead weight I don't think that a 1 ton is going to have much of a better time stopping it on it own. Is it better well sure! but how much. seems by what I have seen by weight class the 1 tons only have a slightly better tow rating then the 2500, GMC DW 3500 400# Ford DW 350 2200# and the Dodge DW 3500 2000#

Granted you have a higher pin weight and it is more stable. It seems to me that the only answer to be Legal is to go to a Ford DW 450 or a Kodak 4500 or 5500 Seems to me this defeats the whole reason for having a fifth wheel. Yes you might be able to take you Ford into a National park or are you going to park your Kodak on the streets in New York or LA?

***Please be kind when schooling me***

 

[2010augusta]

I can not explain all the figures, but i believe if you read all the fine print on the tow rating guides it may provide insight to their thinking.

Notes:
• This information also applies to models with Pickup Box Delete option (66D).
• For F-250/F-350 SRW models, F-350 trailer weights are shown. F-250 trailer weights are within 100 pounds. Check with your sales consultant.
• Trailer king pin weight should be 15-25% of total loaded trailer weight. Make sure vehicle payload (reduced by option weight) will accommodate trailer king pin weight and weight of passengers and cargo added to the towing vehicle. Addition of trailer king pin weight, and weight of passengers and cargo cannot cause vehicle weights to exceed rear GAWR or GVWR. These ratings can be found on the vehicle Safety Compliance Certification Label.

They are putting driver in responsibility for properly loading the truck. ALL passengers, cargo, and extra equipment/options (even the pickup box) WILL reduce the amount you can legally tow. If you want to tow more have the family follow you in a car.

As far as using 450/4500's, I use our F-450 as a daily driver. I park it at wal-mart every time I go and I park it right up front. I can park it in a SINGLE diagonal spot, or back into a SINGLE regular parking spot by a walk way or grass,(the length is the issue and it is the same any CC 8' bed more or less.) I drove a '94 f-350 CC LB SRW for 4 years before we got the F-450, and I would park it in parking garages. It does take time to get use to driving/parking one but the F-450 is only a few inches wider/longer/taller than a F-350 DRW, and it lets you be much safer.

 

[wyleyrabbit]

gzopete,

Why do figure that 10450# is over on a GM? GVWR is 11400# on that thruck (DRW of course). GCWR is 23500, so you'd be ok there too.

Chris

 

[nhunter]

gzopete,

Why do figure that 10450# is over on a GM? GVWR is 11400# on that thruck (DRW of course). GCWR is 23500, so you'd be ok there too.

Chris

He is talking about his 2500. GVRW on my 2006 F-350 SRW is 11500lbs.