jmgratz
Original Owners Club Member
Wow what a popular link. This one has over 33,000 views. Guess the 2nd Amendment is alive and well. LOL
What's your favorite carry weapon?
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Wow what a popular link. This one has over 33,000 views. Guess the 2nd Amendment is alive and well. LOL
nascardavis
Member
We carry a S&W 357 police special. First 3 rounds a bird shot the next 3 are the real thing. We like the bird shot because you really don't have to aim, just point in the general direction. After you wound the sorry SOB finish him or her off with the real thing. In gentleman terms, don't enter the rig unannounced at night.
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
A can of bear spray for the easy stuff, a plain 12 ga pump with a slug in the chamber and the other 4 00 buck, because long arms are easier to carry through the states. Inside Texas and some others, I carry a Kimber 1911 in 40 S&W. I carry the bear spray to cover what I think is 99.99999% of security issues. And I carry the side arm and the shotgun because I can, and because I want to. I like the bear spray, because I don't want the lifelong legal problems and threats to my finances that come along with shooting someone. I can also use the bear spray, get in my rig and get down the road and away from the incident and in this manner be absent from any further involvement in the incident. If I spray someone, I'm not waiting for the cops to come tell me that I have to come down to the station and pay a bond to get out because I was equally involved in an assault against me while some puke sits and lies his guts out about how I attacked him while he was on his way to church. Bear spray, and Im gone.
Cjackg
Well-known member
Good plan... and with a solid 12ga backup!
BighornWm.
Member
Like the idea of the bear spray. Sure can cut down on liability issues. I carry a 357 Magnum.
mmomega
AnyTimer
Favorite small carry is my Kimber 1911 .380
My other is a Kimber 1911 full size .45ACP which is much heavier, colder and tougher to conceal, I may not always have it on me but it's close by.
Both have Crimson Trace laser grips.
The picture is my "travel case", usually take that to dads house.
My other is a Kimber 1911 full size .45ACP which is much heavier, colder and tougher to conceal, I may not always have it on me but it's close by.
Both have Crimson Trace laser grips.
The picture is my "travel case", usually take that to dads house.
Attachments
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
There is truth in satire
I have spent a lot of time in criminal court, and I can tell you that smart attorneys can twist and turn anything around and by the time each side gets finished objecting and sustaining, and putting on their expert witnesses. I would hate to be in civil or criminal court explaining why I shot a guy in the face with Black Flag wasp spray, all while the plaintiff sits in the witness stand with gauze wrapped around his eyes claiming he has been blinded, and his attorney and washed up Dr/expert witness claim that the blindness may infact be permanent. Of course we are forgetting about the witness from the local hardware store who will be reading the label on the can that says that the contents will be used according to the label directions. Then the wife will take the stand and testify that she should get compensated for "lost consortium" (sex) which will be another $30k, because her boyfriend was such a stud before he got shot with black flag that you were carrying around for no good reason except to defend yourself when you could have bought pepper spray, considering that according to the victim/plaintiff says you assaulted him with poison and caused severe chemical burns all for no good reason.
Of course this is all assuming that it makes it to court. Since you have no experience hiring lawyers you will be lucky to get a good one, you will also be lucky if the perpetrator does not have a hammer/attorney who would rather go to court and lose than settle for pennies. He knows what to ask for because he know how much you will fight, the claim will be exactly what you will come to realize it a good cut your losses and run price.
The depositions will take at least 10 hours, and you will be sitting there with your $300 per hour attorney fending off questions from a 1st year attorney who is not getting paid anything, but the questions he is asking are questions that a staff of professional lawyers and law clerks have specifically designed to screw you over. During depositions they can ask for most anything as far as documents are concerned, and they can pretty much as any question they want including what kind of toilet paper you use, what are the names of your physicians, are you taking any prescription drugs? if so what are they? They might even ask if your diabetes makes you get angry? or are you unhappy in your family life and if you have been seeing a counselor for your anger management problem (even though you don't have diabetes or an anger management problem). Then you will need a copy of the transcript from the depositions, the transcriber has a racket on that as well, her product will cost about $900 if not more. If you have not realized that you are screwed yet, you were not listening during depositions. And dont forget about that little fib you told on your concealed permit application.
Then you start realizing that this little wasp spray incident may not be seen exactly as you intended, and you start thinking about that $20k more that you are going to have to spend to defend yourself, so you decide to maybe cut your losses and run even though you're in the right. So thinking about it now, you have about $6k in, and your attorney is asking for $10k to show up on the courthouse steps with you, now you ask or the plaintiff ask for arbitration, and they have a person for that too. The arbitrator will get $1k from each side. Now you are arbitrating the case from pure weakness, you have no counter suit, you have no leverage. So now you are into it for 6K plus $900 plus $1k and $10K for your attorney to show up. If you have not decided to give up now you have to fork over another $10 to go to trial. So now you are looking at trial. You have already spent $17.9K and your attorney wants another $10K, telling you that he needs all this money to study the case, and the case law which he should already know in the first place (he wont be studying anything either) but he is glad to take your money. So now the decision before you is to pay $30k to the plaintiff, and $30K for the lost consortium for the wife/live-in or make a settlement offer, or pay your attorney $10k to proceed and potentially lose the case for a total of $87k plus the plaintiffs attorneys fees. bringing the grand total to over $100K
The last place you want to be is in court having used an unusual weapon on someone, such as "Black Flag" wasp spray. Because the perpetrator will be clean shaven, have a nice haircut, bandages on his eyes, and his mother will be testifying about how johnny is such a wonderful boy who was on his way to Sunday school when you attacked him like a crazy man. She will go on about how he never missed a Sunday at church. She will testify how he used to get up early to go to his school and raise the flag, rain or shine, and how he would go to the local old folks home and read to the elderly. He will be praying the rosary from the plaintiffs desk and you will be all alone in the courtroom. Thinking "how did I get here?" his brother will tell about what a star basketball player his brother was before the attack. The coach will tell about the scholarship. his sister will say that doing anything bad would be so out of character for Johnny, and if he did do something bad it could only be that he was sad that his great grandmother had recently passed away when she got hit by a train when she got loose from the old folk home and that she was only going for a diet coke and a snickers candy bar, your attorney will object to that of course. The attorney for the plaintiff will withdraw the question, but its too late the jury already heard it.
At this point this guy looks like the son you never had and you will want to adopt him.
When that attorney gets through with you, you will think you are guilty of a hanus crime, and so will the jury. You guys with guns don't laugh because the same thing can happen to you but worse.
I'm not anti-gun, I believe there is a place for them. I carry one incase of the off chance that I need one, and I will use it if I have to, but when you pull that trigger just know your entire life savings and equities are at risk, and your life will change. You can laugh if you want, but your weapons need to be the most plain weapons you can find, they need to be your grandpa's shotgun, or an old pistol. or a very plain pistol, a 6 shooter with no hammer is preferable. You must realize that a jury will be seeing your self defense weapon, and it needs to be something they can identify with, and a laser sighted, bone handled, chrome plated 1911, or modern military type pistol, rifle or shotgun will not work for you there. Wasp spray, may turn the jury against you also. Even if the bad guy is proven bad, the contention will be that you were part of it and you just wanted to hurt or kill someone.
I have witnessed this myself, the perps are wise, and their lawyers are wiser, its not about right and wrong, its about who has what and who can get a piece of it. Chances are you have an RV that you have other stuff too. They will come after it. They are like hungry dogs. Forewarned is forearmed.
The do not call them pro-boner lawyers for nothing.
Pepper spray them and haul ***, you will be glad you did, the difference being that you can't leave after you shoot someone. But you can if you pepperspray them.
Peace.
I have spent a lot of time in criminal court, and I can tell you that smart attorneys can twist and turn anything around and by the time each side gets finished objecting and sustaining, and putting on their expert witnesses. I would hate to be in civil or criminal court explaining why I shot a guy in the face with Black Flag wasp spray, all while the plaintiff sits in the witness stand with gauze wrapped around his eyes claiming he has been blinded, and his attorney and washed up Dr/expert witness claim that the blindness may infact be permanent. Of course we are forgetting about the witness from the local hardware store who will be reading the label on the can that says that the contents will be used according to the label directions. Then the wife will take the stand and testify that she should get compensated for "lost consortium" (sex) which will be another $30k, because her boyfriend was such a stud before he got shot with black flag that you were carrying around for no good reason except to defend yourself when you could have bought pepper spray, considering that according to the victim/plaintiff says you assaulted him with poison and caused severe chemical burns all for no good reason.
Of course this is all assuming that it makes it to court. Since you have no experience hiring lawyers you will be lucky to get a good one, you will also be lucky if the perpetrator does not have a hammer/attorney who would rather go to court and lose than settle for pennies. He knows what to ask for because he know how much you will fight, the claim will be exactly what you will come to realize it a good cut your losses and run price.
The depositions will take at least 10 hours, and you will be sitting there with your $300 per hour attorney fending off questions from a 1st year attorney who is not getting paid anything, but the questions he is asking are questions that a staff of professional lawyers and law clerks have specifically designed to screw you over. During depositions they can ask for most anything as far as documents are concerned, and they can pretty much as any question they want including what kind of toilet paper you use, what are the names of your physicians, are you taking any prescription drugs? if so what are they? They might even ask if your diabetes makes you get angry? or are you unhappy in your family life and if you have been seeing a counselor for your anger management problem (even though you don't have diabetes or an anger management problem). Then you will need a copy of the transcript from the depositions, the transcriber has a racket on that as well, her product will cost about $900 if not more. If you have not realized that you are screwed yet, you were not listening during depositions. And dont forget about that little fib you told on your concealed permit application.
Then you start realizing that this little wasp spray incident may not be seen exactly as you intended, and you start thinking about that $20k more that you are going to have to spend to defend yourself, so you decide to maybe cut your losses and run even though you're in the right. So thinking about it now, you have about $6k in, and your attorney is asking for $10k to show up on the courthouse steps with you, now you ask or the plaintiff ask for arbitration, and they have a person for that too. The arbitrator will get $1k from each side. Now you are arbitrating the case from pure weakness, you have no counter suit, you have no leverage. So now you are into it for 6K plus $900 plus $1k and $10K for your attorney to show up. If you have not decided to give up now you have to fork over another $10 to go to trial. So now you are looking at trial. You have already spent $17.9K and your attorney wants another $10K, telling you that he needs all this money to study the case, and the case law which he should already know in the first place (he wont be studying anything either) but he is glad to take your money. So now the decision before you is to pay $30k to the plaintiff, and $30K for the lost consortium for the wife/live-in or make a settlement offer, or pay your attorney $10k to proceed and potentially lose the case for a total of $87k plus the plaintiffs attorneys fees. bringing the grand total to over $100K
The last place you want to be is in court having used an unusual weapon on someone, such as "Black Flag" wasp spray. Because the perpetrator will be clean shaven, have a nice haircut, bandages on his eyes, and his mother will be testifying about how johnny is such a wonderful boy who was on his way to Sunday school when you attacked him like a crazy man. She will go on about how he never missed a Sunday at church. She will testify how he used to get up early to go to his school and raise the flag, rain or shine, and how he would go to the local old folks home and read to the elderly. He will be praying the rosary from the plaintiffs desk and you will be all alone in the courtroom. Thinking "how did I get here?" his brother will tell about what a star basketball player his brother was before the attack. The coach will tell about the scholarship. his sister will say that doing anything bad would be so out of character for Johnny, and if he did do something bad it could only be that he was sad that his great grandmother had recently passed away when she got hit by a train when she got loose from the old folk home and that she was only going for a diet coke and a snickers candy bar, your attorney will object to that of course. The attorney for the plaintiff will withdraw the question, but its too late the jury already heard it.
At this point this guy looks like the son you never had and you will want to adopt him.
When that attorney gets through with you, you will think you are guilty of a hanus crime, and so will the jury. You guys with guns don't laugh because the same thing can happen to you but worse.
I'm not anti-gun, I believe there is a place for them. I carry one incase of the off chance that I need one, and I will use it if I have to, but when you pull that trigger just know your entire life savings and equities are at risk, and your life will change. You can laugh if you want, but your weapons need to be the most plain weapons you can find, they need to be your grandpa's shotgun, or an old pistol. or a very plain pistol, a 6 shooter with no hammer is preferable. You must realize that a jury will be seeing your self defense weapon, and it needs to be something they can identify with, and a laser sighted, bone handled, chrome plated 1911, or modern military type pistol, rifle or shotgun will not work for you there. Wasp spray, may turn the jury against you also. Even if the bad guy is proven bad, the contention will be that you were part of it and you just wanted to hurt or kill someone.
I have witnessed this myself, the perps are wise, and their lawyers are wiser, its not about right and wrong, its about who has what and who can get a piece of it. Chances are you have an RV that you have other stuff too. They will come after it. They are like hungry dogs. Forewarned is forearmed.
The do not call them pro-boner lawyers for nothing.
Pepper spray them and haul ***, you will be glad you did, the difference being that you can't leave after you shoot someone. But you can if you pepperspray them.
Peace.
JanAndBill
Well-known member
I guess this why an attorney friend of mine once told me if you ever are forced to shoot someone, shoot to kill. Dead men can't testify against you.
davebennington
Senior Member
Well said. I think I will stay with my carry weapon.
dave
dave
Lynn1130
Well-known member
If you have to shoot you shoot to stop the threat. That means not trying to shoot an arm or a leg. Center mass and mean it. The problem still remains with law enforcement review, attorney review and being sued by any family member who is still alive even though they may not have seen the perp for 20 years.
While "S--- Happens" and some circumstances are beyond your control the best policy is to do your best to avoid putting yourself into situations where you can become a victim. I see so many people, everyday, who walk around with no idea of what is going on around them. Good situational awareness can keep you out of harms way and alive. Obviously someone breaking into your home/trailer is a different set of circumstances than being jumped while walking down the street so use what force is necessary but a good part of protection is to avoid harm when you can by being aware.
While "S--- Happens" and some circumstances are beyond your control the best policy is to do your best to avoid putting yourself into situations where you can become a victim. I see so many people, everyday, who walk around with no idea of what is going on around them. Good situational awareness can keep you out of harms way and alive. Obviously someone breaking into your home/trailer is a different set of circumstances than being jumped while walking down the street so use what force is necessary but a good part of protection is to avoid harm when you can by being aware.
danemayer
Well-known member
Jim,
I know you've given this advice before and have also recommended Bear Spray. I'm afraid I don't understand:
1) Why you think that using Pepper Spray or similar products won't put you into a potentially ruinous court situation.
2) Why you think it's a good idea to leave the scene after an altercation where you disable someone. If you're found, wouldn't your explanation be completely discounted? Couldn't the other guy make up any story and come across as the only credible witness?
Btw, if the injured party has to be admitted to a hospital, any charges against you could be upgraded to Aggravated Assualt.
JohnDar
Prolifically Gabby Member
Well said!
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
I have not changed my stance on pepper spray/bear spray.
The reason I would leave is simple, I was attacked, I successfully defended myself, I left, decided I did not want to become involved with the crook and his friends, so I have decided to continue on my way trying to forget it.
Bear Spray/pepper spray is different than "Black Flag" wasp spray, It has chemicals and poison in it.
It is not what a jury will see, its what a plaintiffs attorney thinks he can MAKE a jury see. The plaintiff attorney will have a losing case going before a jury with the pepper spray product simply because it is designed to "DEFEND".
But use Black Flag wasp spray and the plaintiffs attorney will have some traction. And may in fact get a winner out of it, he might get a win by saying that you knew that you were someday going to be attacked and that you were negligent in not buying pepper spray but instead bought "BlackFlag" for the specific purpose of spraying his client and because of that you blinded my client.
My satire is trying to point out that if you must carry a weapon (and I think we should) then it must be designed for the purpose of defending yourself. The jury must be able to understand what you have done, and they must be able to identify with you. 1/2 of those jurors have a pepper spray on their keychain, all of them have thought about buying some, so why would you use anything different.
And like I said, It has nothing to do with truth, it is everything about getting your money, lawsuits are expensive, so an attorney is not likely to take on a case where a 60 year old guy successfully defended himself from a 30 year old by using "DEFENSE" spray.
The elements of aggravated assault are published in the Texas Penal Code and it says nothing about being hospitalized. Although the subject being admitted to the hospital is one articulable fact for a report. Personally, I want someone to go to the hospital after I shot them with pepper spray, that way the attending physician can treat him and make contemporaneous notes about his condition. Like wise with a gun.
Once you step in this stuff, its hard to get it off, the best thing to do is avoid all trouble, defend yourself with the appropriate tool if need be. With the exception of using deadly force, get out and away from the scene.
The reason I would leave is simple, I was attacked, I successfully defended myself, I left, decided I did not want to become involved with the crook and his friends, so I have decided to continue on my way trying to forget it.
Bear Spray/pepper spray is different than "Black Flag" wasp spray, It has chemicals and poison in it.
It is not what a jury will see, its what a plaintiffs attorney thinks he can MAKE a jury see. The plaintiff attorney will have a losing case going before a jury with the pepper spray product simply because it is designed to "DEFEND".
But use Black Flag wasp spray and the plaintiffs attorney will have some traction. And may in fact get a winner out of it, he might get a win by saying that you knew that you were someday going to be attacked and that you were negligent in not buying pepper spray but instead bought "BlackFlag" for the specific purpose of spraying his client and because of that you blinded my client.
My satire is trying to point out that if you must carry a weapon (and I think we should) then it must be designed for the purpose of defending yourself. The jury must be able to understand what you have done, and they must be able to identify with you. 1/2 of those jurors have a pepper spray on their keychain, all of them have thought about buying some, so why would you use anything different.
And like I said, It has nothing to do with truth, it is everything about getting your money, lawsuits are expensive, so an attorney is not likely to take on a case where a 60 year old guy successfully defended himself from a 30 year old by using "DEFENSE" spray.
The elements of aggravated assault are published in the Texas Penal Code and it says nothing about being hospitalized. Although the subject being admitted to the hospital is one articulable fact for a report. Personally, I want someone to go to the hospital after I shot them with pepper spray, that way the attending physician can treat him and make contemporaneous notes about his condition. Like wise with a gun.
Once you step in this stuff, its hard to get it off, the best thing to do is avoid all trouble, defend yourself with the appropriate tool if need be. With the exception of using deadly force, get out and away from the scene.
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
I read all your comments, and I have to say ditto to trying to avoid problems through situational awareness. My guns and my my pepper spray are for me and mine, I don't defend convenience stores or neighborhoods, its up to them to defend themselves. Its a complex world out there and I hate to say that it is so messed up that a man cannot act anymore with any certainty.
I hope you liked the satire. Could it happen that way? Perhaps, but not likely.
I have seen some weird twisted theories come from defense attorneys in criminal court, I have only seen one civil case, so its easy for me make up an absurd story based on all that.
But remember this,
If you are talking to a man/woman with a badge you need an attorney present.
I hope you liked the satire. Could it happen that way? Perhaps, but not likely.
I have seen some weird twisted theories come from defense attorneys in criminal court, I have only seen one civil case, so its easy for me make up an absurd story based on all that.
But remember this,
If you are talking to a man/woman with a badge you need an attorney present.
