Badly Bent Frame - A Trend??
- Thread starter wdk450
- Start date
danemayer
Well-known member
It looks like they've completely restructured their support website. The information is still there but it's hard to find anything.
We've got a copy of the Master Towable manual and the Correct Track manuals.
adam
Well-known member
So this begs the the following questions Bill (or anyone else with a valid opinion);
1. Does Lippert or Heartland have a silent "campaign" to reinforce stock spring hangers or do they just expect owners to preemptively undertake this reinforcement themselves?
2. Does anyone have specific information on which frame models this may apply to other than the Bighorn?
Adam
1. Does Lippert or Heartland have a silent "campaign" to reinforce stock spring hangers or do they just expect owners to preemptively undertake this reinforcement themselves?
2. Does anyone have specific information on which frame models this may apply to other than the Bighorn?
Adam
danemayer
Well-known member
First time in 4 years that I recall reading a thread about bent frame/hangers. I don't think there's any reason to worry about the stock frames.
I might be concerned if I had installed after-market Correct Track II on my rig. (Factory installed Correct Track is different - no reason to be concerned).
wdk450
Well-known member
The Lippert document is now on the Heartland Forum "Tools" tab, "Manuals", "Exterior", "Frames" sub menus. Here is a direct link:
http://manuals.heartlandowners.org/.../Lippert/Lippert - Repairing Frame Cracks.pdf
The crossmember fabrication and installation procedure is on the 2nd page.
http://manuals.heartlandowners.org/.../Lippert/Lippert - Repairing Frame Cracks.pdf
The crossmember fabrication and installation procedure is on the 2nd page.
I had the same thing happen to our 06 Landmark. It has very tall spring hangers, side sway caused them to flex side to side. I fabricated a truss and mounted it between the hangers. I had seen the literature that Lippert had for the fix, in my opinion, as a repair, it is lacking a bit to be desired. PM me if you want more info.
adam
Well-known member
I have scheduled my 2015 Landmark in for hanger corrections next week, not at a RV dealership but a local fabricating diesel shop that does heavy OTR truck and trailer repairs. I am not waiting to have issues with this design later on.
I have chatted with other members who had to do these repairs who have indicated that there have been no design changes to the frame, gussets or hangers since at least 2008. I have sent emails to both Heartland and Lippert.
Some of you may have seen this e-z flex video from youtube - pretty straightforward as many BigHorns and Landmarks use this suspension product:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6hXCegZNxE
For those of you that can't visualize the loading strain that are being put on these hangers have a look at this video particularly the first 30 seconds; (Please note this is a generic Lippert frame and "equal-flex" suspension product - I am not suggesting this is a BH, BC or Landmark -Its just the hanger movement that I am trying to point out)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp5iRVPwYZg
Adam
I have chatted with other members who had to do these repairs who have indicated that there have been no design changes to the frame, gussets or hangers since at least 2008. I have sent emails to both Heartland and Lippert.
Some of you may have seen this e-z flex video from youtube - pretty straightforward as many BigHorns and Landmarks use this suspension product:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6hXCegZNxE
For those of you that can't visualize the loading strain that are being put on these hangers have a look at this video particularly the first 30 seconds; (Please note this is a generic Lippert frame and "equal-flex" suspension product - I am not suggesting this is a BH, BC or Landmark -Its just the hanger movement that I am trying to point out)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp5iRVPwYZg
Adam
wdk450
Well-known member
Adam and All:
Just to clarify what I have on my rig, I have the Dexter EZ Flex equalizers (which Heartland now factory installs) and the Lippert Correct-Track add-on extensions to the front and rear spring hangars, recommended/installed by the Lippert/Mobile Outfitters representatives at the 2013 Goshen Heartland National Rally.
The Lippert suspension You Tube video in post #29 of this thread was very enlightening to be able to see the constant side forces on the spring hangars/frame as you go down the road. MorRyde recognized this and besides welding in bracing on all of their Independent Suspension installs, they have also been selling a non-weld, DIY fix for this problem, the X Factor Crossmember. See : http://www.morryde.com/aftermarket/running-gear/performance-crossmembers-by-mor-ryde-60.html . I don't think the X-Factor is as good as a welded brace, but it is non-weld DIY product that comes pretty close.
From the report that the Lippert Repair Sheet was generated around 2009, this also supports the idea that the towable RV industry has known about this problem for a long while, but has chosen to address it minimally.
Just to clarify what I have on my rig, I have the Dexter EZ Flex equalizers (which Heartland now factory installs) and the Lippert Correct-Track add-on extensions to the front and rear spring hangars, recommended/installed by the Lippert/Mobile Outfitters representatives at the 2013 Goshen Heartland National Rally.
The Lippert suspension You Tube video in post #29 of this thread was very enlightening to be able to see the constant side forces on the spring hangars/frame as you go down the road. MorRyde recognized this and besides welding in bracing on all of their Independent Suspension installs, they have also been selling a non-weld, DIY fix for this problem, the X Factor Crossmember. See : http://www.morryde.com/aftermarket/running-gear/performance-crossmembers-by-mor-ryde-60.html . I don't think the X-Factor is as good as a welded brace, but it is non-weld DIY product that comes pretty close.
From the report that the Lippert Repair Sheet was generated around 2009, this also supports the idea that the towable RV industry has known about this problem for a long while, but has chosen to address it minimally.
adam
Well-known member
Publication 0135A outlines minimum recommendations for reinforcement, I was advised today of additional welding methods that can be used by my diesel shop to strengthen this design. They have done this to triaxle equipment floats hauling weight far in excess of my unit with excellent results.
I'm sure some of you may think this is uncalled for however frame warranty by Lippert is only 12 months on paper, and I can't imagine dealing with this issue like Bill is outside of a warranty period.
I'm sure some of you may think this is uncalled for however frame warranty by Lippert is only 12 months on paper, and I can't imagine dealing with this issue like Bill is outside of a warranty period.
danemayer
Well-known member
The 2nd video looks like there are Correct Track extensions installed.
adam
Well-known member
Dan your right, the video does show a aftermarket suspension product. The intention of the video was to try to show members the forces that act on our axle hangers. Admittedly those forces are exaggerated by the correct track extensions. No one knows that better than say Bill who is dealing with this problem right now on his Big Horn.
Below is a portion of cut text from Lipperts 0135A publication;
AN AXLE RETRO IS PERFORMED TO UNITS THAT HAVE OR COULD HAVE SPRING
HANGER ISSUES. IT IS USED TO MINIMIZE OR EVEN PREVENT SWAY IN THE UNIT AND
STRENGTHEN THE AXLE AREA.
Lippert has written a very vague discription.....I guess it all depends on where your comfort level is with the design of the frame. After talking earlier today with another member who had extensive damage done to his last Big Horn with the identical frame to my Landmark I have elected to spend the $300-400 to have this work done. I will treat it just like any other maintenance cost. I certainly would never entertain letting my 1 year frame warranty expire only to have a random failure somewhere hundreds of miles from home, because I discounted the potential issues with this design.
Below is a portion of cut text from Lipperts 0135A publication;
AN AXLE RETRO IS PERFORMED TO UNITS THAT HAVE OR COULD HAVE SPRING
HANGER ISSUES. IT IS USED TO MINIMIZE OR EVEN PREVENT SWAY IN THE UNIT AND
STRENGTHEN THE AXLE AREA.
Lippert has written a very vague discription.....I guess it all depends on where your comfort level is with the design of the frame. After talking earlier today with another member who had extensive damage done to his last Big Horn with the identical frame to my Landmark I have elected to spend the $300-400 to have this work done. I will treat it just like any other maintenance cost. I certainly would never entertain letting my 1 year frame warranty expire only to have a random failure somewhere hundreds of miles from home, because I discounted the potential issues with this design.
kakampers
Past Heartland Ambassador
Anything you can do to prevent what is a well known failure is certainly not "uncalled for"...any of us who have experienced the effects of such a failure can attest to that. Unfortunately this is not just a Heartland issue...this is industry wide. Most owners will never put their units through what full timers do and will probably not experience these issues...and that's what Lippert is counting on. They will address this on a case by case basis. For them it will end up less expensive than a company wide redesign of the axle area on the thousands of frames they produce each year...JMHO.
wdk450
Well-known member
Gang:
After weeks of reflection on what could have caused this, my only possible idea is making the 50 mile trip on US 101 between Florence and Newport Oregon along a Pacific Coast section much like California Highway 1 in the Big Sur area - many 30 mph curves and switchbacks on this section of road. I drive very moderately, use my exhaust brake extensively, but I made this trip towing the Bighorn 4 times in about 7 weeks. That, plus the Correct Track extensions on the spring hangars.
I go to see the welder today, if his workload ahead of me is finally open we can finally get this repair started soon.
On edit: My welder is also a local Cloverdale, Ca. volunteer firefighter, and I guess he has volunteered for the 2nd time this summer to leave his business and go help fight the wildfires near the California-Oregon border. I will have to wait some more. I got to see the Cedar Creek he towed 120 miles here from Woodland, and fixed - it looks perfect with crossbracing at every hangar point, and I was told by his assistant that they made the hangars as short as possible to minimize side stress. That owner somehow got Dexter to ship him new axles free of charge.
After weeks of reflection on what could have caused this, my only possible idea is making the 50 mile trip on US 101 between Florence and Newport Oregon along a Pacific Coast section much like California Highway 1 in the Big Sur area - many 30 mph curves and switchbacks on this section of road. I drive very moderately, use my exhaust brake extensively, but I made this trip towing the Bighorn 4 times in about 7 weeks. That, plus the Correct Track extensions on the spring hangars.
I go to see the welder today, if his workload ahead of me is finally open we can finally get this repair started soon.
On edit: My welder is also a local Cloverdale, Ca. volunteer firefighter, and I guess he has volunteered for the 2nd time this summer to leave his business and go help fight the wildfires near the California-Oregon border. I will have to wait some more. I got to see the Cedar Creek he towed 120 miles here from Woodland, and fixed - it looks perfect with crossbracing at every hangar point, and I was told by his assistant that they made the hangars as short as possible to minimize side stress. That owner somehow got Dexter to ship him new axles free of charge.
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wdk450
Well-known member
Heartlanders:
I finally uploaded the repaired pictures to my Google drive. They are at: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bw3atuhfb0GMUXhiRE50LXYtMjg&usp=sharing
The bottoms and top half of the support I-Beams were cut out, the bottom rail replaced by thick wall steel tubing welded to the remaining I beam after it was straightened out. Flat steel plate was welded from the top of the tube to the lower edge of the cut-out section of the I-beams, and the plate was welded in top, bottom and ends if its length, so it bears load. The repaired sections were painted. Crossbeam tubing was welded in between the two repair tubing sections. Spring hangars were welded in placed. New equalizers, springs, never fail bushings and shackles were installed. The Axles were installed and aligned. The disk brake system was reconnected and bled.
My thanks to Roger Fletcher of Fletchers Fabrication of Cloverdale, Ca. for doing a great job, and letting me stay for free at his shop in the trailer while the work was done.
My thanks to Sonny Dismuke (formerly of Lippert) who came out to California from Oklahoma, and interrupted his trip out here to look at my rig and give me advice. I also thank Sonny's new company, RV Improvement Systems, for giving me one of their dual axle inside I-Beam shock absorber kits.
Also my thanks to all of the concerned Heartlanders out there that showed their concern, and gave advice. This includes Jim Belletti for his "behind the scenes" work in getting me in contact with Sonny and people at Lippert.
I finally uploaded the repaired pictures to my Google drive. They are at: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bw3atuhfb0GMUXhiRE50LXYtMjg&usp=sharing
The bottoms and top half of the support I-Beams were cut out, the bottom rail replaced by thick wall steel tubing welded to the remaining I beam after it was straightened out. Flat steel plate was welded from the top of the tube to the lower edge of the cut-out section of the I-beams, and the plate was welded in top, bottom and ends if its length, so it bears load. The repaired sections were painted. Crossbeam tubing was welded in between the two repair tubing sections. Spring hangars were welded in placed. New equalizers, springs, never fail bushings and shackles were installed. The Axles were installed and aligned. The disk brake system was reconnected and bled.
My thanks to Roger Fletcher of Fletchers Fabrication of Cloverdale, Ca. for doing a great job, and letting me stay for free at his shop in the trailer while the work was done.
My thanks to Sonny Dismuke (formerly of Lippert) who came out to California from Oklahoma, and interrupted his trip out here to look at my rig and give me advice. I also thank Sonny's new company, RV Improvement Systems, for giving me one of their dual axle inside I-Beam shock absorber kits.
Also my thanks to all of the concerned Heartlanders out there that showed their concern, and gave advice. This includes Jim Belletti for his "behind the scenes" work in getting me in contact with Sonny and people at Lippert.
Bill,
Thank you for sharing the pictures and the story. If there's any cause and effect info you are prepared to intimate, now would be a good time for readers to hear all the factors you believe may have been contributory to the issue and what you do not feel were contributory factors. This will help others to know what to look for, what to do, what not to do etc.
Thanks Bill and sorry you had to go through this. See you next time I'm out west.
Thank you for sharing the pictures and the story. If there's any cause and effect info you are prepared to intimate, now would be a good time for readers to hear all the factors you believe may have been contributory to the issue and what you do not feel were contributory factors. This will help others to know what to look for, what to do, what not to do etc.
Thanks Bill and sorry you had to go through this. See you next time I'm out west.
wdk450
Well-known member
Jim:
Thanks for all your help and concern. As to my best thoughts on cause, I can only tell you to see post #35 on this thread, along with the agreement of most all consulted in the repair that cross bracing between the spring hangars (like the MorRyde X Factor product) should be installed. Some people can't be directly quoted by name on the cross bracing due to their association with the frame manufacturer. My welder and the Progressive Insurance inspector certainly advocated the cross bracing.
I think that an enterprising welder could clean up installing this bracing at big rallies like Quartzsite, and big 5th wheel rallies like ours. I know that doing this anywhere close to Elkhart/Goshen would be a touchy issue, so I wouldn't recommend it be done on site there. But I WOULD recommend that everyone that can take advantage of the discount offers MorRyde offers on Independent Suspension (which includes cross bracing and the removal of the entire spring axle suspension system) at the biannual Heartland National Goshen rallies. I don't have an interest on MorRyde's business future, I just want the best, least troubled, RVing future for all my fellow Heartlanders.
Someone asked about the Dexter Air bag IS system. It really looks nice, airbags like what the big truck trailers use (but they do not have IS), but while researching all of the other IS options, I could find very little actual data, or local installers, who were familiar with those systems. MorRyde has a fairly significant installed IS base on large 5th wheels, and is set up with service bays, campsites across the street from the service bays, and does these upgrades on a continuing basis. The big drawback to me about MorRyde is the 1 installation location for the entire U.S.
JohnD
Moved on to the next thing...
wdk450
Well-known member
Well, I'm thinking about it, but am pretty much in a travel and fuel conservation mode to pay off some of these big bills.
