Ford 6.7L HPFP failures w/o warranty

[porthole]

Ford's reply to the NHTSA inquiry.

Note, that the person responding is responsible for Ford's "Global Automotive Safety", and he got his cover letter date wrong by two years.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM416309/INRL-EA11003-50102P.pdf

http://www.automotiveworld.com/events/automotive-megatrends-usa-2012/speakers/steve-kenner-ford

 

[Shelby-GT-500]

What kind of truck, Ford 6.7?

I have no brand loyalty and my 6.7 is my first FoMoCo product, excluding my wife's MKX.

I think many of us who have the 6.7 and now may have a bit of concern over the HPFP debacle, bought our trucks before the HPFP failures came to light.
I followed the Scorpion design from the day I first read about it and felt with all the previous Ford diesel history that they got it right this time (I am am auto-diesel tech by trade, former career though).

The big difference with all of this is that GM seems to be repairing the trucks under warranty, don't know about VW where it first surfaced.

There is going to be a lot of spilled ink over this and it may very well hurt Ford in the future, from the loss of blue oval loyalist to the first timers who just shop around for a new truck, regardless of brand.

New truck buyer walks into ford dealer:
Yep, here ya go, this baby has more torque and horsepower then the GM or Dodge down the street. Just look at it - it is a super duty after all, what else can be said?

Stops by the GM store
Yep, look at this truck and you compare, but be aware, that Ford you looked at are blowing up engines and they are not covered under warranty. Just Google it and you will see all the failures and non coverage.
Yeah - but doesn't GM use the same pump? Sure do, but GM is repairing the very few failures that have popped up. Just Google, you will not find complaints like the negative Ford for the GM.

Now the new truck buyer is unsure, Ford dealer says greatest since sliced bread, GM says Ford's are blowing up, who to believe?
Stops by the Dodge dealer:
Yep, take a look at this baby, doesn't have quite as much HP and torque as the other too, but it is not a Mexican or Japanese engine. We got the Cummins here, you may have heard Cummins before, they are in everything from tractors to trucks, buses luxury yachts and so on.
What the GM dealer told you about the Ford is correct, just Google it, but the GM has pumps that are failing too. I don't think they are covered though (remember this is the sales person).
Now this here Cummins, we don't use the Bosch pump prone to failure, just Google it.

End of the day, the new truck buyer has now heard from two different manufacturers that eh Ford is junk and he is at home Googleing it and decides Ford is not for him.
And he tells all his friends, joins the new Dodge forum and relates his story there.
And the next new truck buyer joins the big 3 truck forums and continues to read about the failures and does not buy the Super Duty.

I still really like my truck and it is the best pickup I have owned since buying my first new vehicle, 1978 Dodge Power Wagon.
I am hoping I skate under the HPFP failure. I will continue to change my oil before the recommended interval and will change my fuel filters twice a year like I have always done.

New to me though is that I am using the Motorcraft fuel additives with every tank. Not happy about being forced by fear to do that, but I do not want to end up where Ric did.

In the end, NHTSA is looking into it and all the consumer can hope for is a ruling by the feds.

What I don't get is, the pump failure is a Bosch item. Warranted repairs completed by Ford are just in turn billed to the part supplier.

I still like my truck and am keeping my fingers crossed

Well said!!!

My truck is a 2011 with a 6.7.

Ford builds the 6.7 in Mexico and it saves us a disappointing 10% over the cost of an american made Cummins. By the way the Cummins is a 500,000 to 1,000,000 mile motor!

Now you know they save more than 10% just on taxes due to the NAFTA treaty. They are pocketing the rest! Then sticking us with an 8,000 to 18,000 repair bill that they would bill to Bosch any way! Do anyone truly believe the motor plant in Mexico actually puts out quality REALLY!!!!

 

[Shelby-GT-500]

mmomega,

Rick knows his stuff. I hope you do not have a failure happening! You should probably take it in right a way and get it checked by a good Ford diesel shop. Maybe you have caught it soon enough that they just need to do the pump. Let us know what they say. I truly do not want any bad things to happen to any of us!

 

[caissiel]

The HD sleeved 5.9 L is american. The HD Ram is also Mexican made and the cummins in the Ram is the light duty model. To compete with GM and Ford.
All the compitition Rams upgrade to the industrial engines don't they.

But I have been reading that the radiatorss are failing on the high milage 6.7s. Some covered by warranty and some not at $1300 each. Some operators are getting mad because of the service and parts availability grounds them for weeks at a time.
My old 6.0L looks better all the time.

 

[Shelby-GT-500]

I know the Ram is assembled down there but I thought the motors were built here.

 

[mmomega]

I have no doubt that Rick knows what he's talking about and I truly dislike all of the things he had to go through to gain some of this knowledge. I don't wish a truck breakdown on anyone but it happens every single day.

Maybe I'm crazy but I'm no cheerleader for Ford, I definitely don't preach the Government Motors or any money bailout talk, I just believe I bought the best truck out of the 3 I was looking at, the GMC a very very close second if I could even call it second. My truck had an LCD display in the dash and electric extendable mirrors that and a loaded Lariat sub$50,000 helped seal the deal.

I don't spook very easy and until something actually happens to me I just won't run to get rid of this. In my mind it makes zero sense to get turn so upside down on trading out of the truck. So if we are talking money, keeping the truck, to me, is the better deal regardless of the pump going out. To get a different branded truck like I want, I will be out well over 10-15,000 dollars just on trading outand extend a truck note for another year which is another 12,000.

Again I hated to hear what Rick went through but he isn't me. Ford hasn't shafted me yet and until they do I personally have no reason to Talk bad about them or go elsewhere, yet. If something happens I'll handle it when it does but I don't NEED to do anything now. No offense to Rick or anyone else involved but fact of the matter, I don't know him know him and again I'm not going to think something bad is going to happen to my truck just because it did to someone else. Like 3 friends that have 6.0L and mine has had the bad egr, head gaskets, transmission, radiator, degas tank, oil cooler, etc. and they have not and they have older truck with more miles....no rhyme or reason, we do basically the same things with those trucks and same mods for the most part.

Just a difference of opinions and everyone thinks theirs is correct. No harm no foul, that's what you get when you throw a bunch of guys and trucks into the same pot. No rules on having to agree
Cheers and I hope for many trouble free and fun miles with our trucks, trailers and families.

 

[jbeletti]

Hi guys,

Say, I really appreciate the spirited discussion on this thread and the way everyone is conducting themselves. This is an eye opener for some and a learning too.

Let's keep the discussion going so long as folks have something new to offer - especially in terms of their own experience with the 6.7.

For the record, I know many of you personally, including Rick. A bunch of sharp guys. I wish I knew as much about diesel engines and related systems as you guys have forgotten

Jim

 

[Shelby-GT-500]

I have no doubt that Rick knows what he's talking about and I truly dislike all of the things he had to go through to gain some of this knowledge. I don't wish a truck breakdown on anyone but it happens every single day.

Maybe I'm crazy but I'm no cheerleader for Ford, I definitely don't preach the Government Motors or any money bailout talk, I just believe I bought the best truck out of the 3 I was looking at, the GMC a very very close second if I could even call it second. My truck had an LCD display in the dash and electric extendable mirrors that and a loaded Lariat sub$50,000 helped seal the deal.

I agree about Government motors, that was another reason I prefer Ford. I too think it is the best truck out there. My only problem is Ford denying warranty on legitimate HPFP failure claims. There is no conceivable way that every single HPFP failure is the customers fault.

I don't spook very easy and until something actually happens to me I just won't run to get rid of this. In my mind it makes zero sense to get turn so upside down on trading out of the truck. So if we are talking money, keeping the truck, to me, is the better deal regardless of the pump going out. To get a different branded truck like I want, I will be out well over 10-15,000 dollars just on trading outand extend a truck note for another year which is another 12,000.

You have done everything possible to avoid a failure. Filters on time, best fuel you can get and additives. If you are in the middle of a failure happening how can Ford blame you? If you have aluminum in the filter it makes sense that the HPFP is failing. I currently race motocross and have been for years. I have seen some two strokes fail, Rick is correct the pump would start sending small fragment of aluminum through the system as it grinds on its self. It will get continually worse until a catastrophic failure happens if that is what is happening.

Again I hated to hear what Rick went through but he isn't me. Ford hasn't shafted me yet and until they do I personally have no reason to Talk bad about them or go elsewhere, yet. If something happens I'll handle it when it does but I don't NEED to do anything now. No offense to Rick or anyone else involved but fact of the matter, I don't know him know him and again I'm not going to think something bad is going to happen to my truck just because it did to someone else. Like 3 friends that have 6.0L and mine has had the bad egr, head gaskets, transmission, radiator, degas tank, oil cooler, etc. and they have not and they have older truck with more miles....no rhyme or reason, we do basically the same things with those trucks and same mods for the most part.

Just a difference of opinions and everyone thinks theirs is correct. No harm no foul, that's what you get when you throw a bunch of guys and trucks into the same pot. No rules on having to agree
Cheers and I hope for many trouble free and fun miles with our trucks, trailers and families.

I agree about Government motors, that was another reason I prefer Ford. I too think it is the best truck out there. My only problem is Ford denying warranty on legitimate HPFP failure claims. There is no conceivable way that every single HPFP failure is the customers fault!

You have done everything possible to avoid a failure. Filters on time, best fuel you can get and additives. If you are in the middle of a failure happening how can Ford blame you? If you have aluminum in the filter it makes sense that the HPFP is failing. I currently race motocross and have been for years. I have seen some two strokes fail, Rick is correct the pump would start sending small fragment of aluminum through the system as it grinds on its self. It will get continually worse until a catastrophic failure happens if that is what is happening.

 

[Shelby-GT-500]

mmomega,

Not trying to spook you, I am however already spooked that this could happen to me! The HPFP has a return or bypass in the system I believe. This allows some fuel to return to the tank and fuel filter. Not much chance of you getting that much aluminum from a filling station. They have filters on each hose. The aluminum is most likely coming from your vehicle.

If it were my truck I would have it in to be looked at. You know the saying an ounce of prevention is worth.............

Thanks

 

[lwmcguir]

Does anyone know for a fact that these HP pumps would have aluminum? All of our Diesels on the farm/ranch have always had all steel components. I would think Aluminum would be way to soft for any high pressure application. Had my oil changed at Ford, ask about failures. Still none in our area and there are a lot of them way over 1000 hours. I use the Ford additive just as a safety measure and change filters per the recommended schedule. This will be interesting to see how it plays out. I certainly want to see it become less of an issue as time goes along. I know this engine was tested in severe conditions at high milage but I am sure the fuel met specs as well. I had warranty issues with my 6.0 and Ford paid every dollar per the warranty for the coolers and injectors so I expect the same with this engine if it is needed.

 

[mmomega]

Ric would have the most input here on the pump composition as he has had them analyzed. I'm wanting to say the pump is aluminum with some steel innards. I plan on opening the engine mounted filter tomorrow to see if anything got caught there.

 

[lwmcguir]

I had the shop bring the filters over to the bench so I could look at them. Both were fairly clean with the primary haveing just a bit of crud. Certainly what I wanted to see. This was a 15,000 mile run. Ford is probably monitoring this forum by now the more factual we can keep it as Jim noted, the more we will all learn. The HP portions of the pumps are surely hardened steel of some kind of dense metal. I could see the housing being aluminum. Still you dont want to see anything getting by the primary filter.

 

[Rodbuster]

All of this talk about the 6.7 has certainly got me concerned.
How often should we be changing this fuel filter? Should one be changed more often than the other?

Thank you
Dick

 

[porthole]

I had the shop bring the filters over to the bench so I could look at them. Both were fairly clean with the primary haveing just a bit of crud. Certainly what I wanted to see. This was a 15,000 mile run. Ford is probably monitoring this forum by now the more factual we can keep it as Jim noted, the more we will all learn. The HP portions of the pumps are surely hardened steel of some kind of dense metal. I could see the housing being aluminum. Still you dont want to see anything getting by the primary filter.

Rod, fuel filters should be changed as a pair.

Ford says: change the oil and filter and the fuel filters when the respective dash info is displayed.
Both of those programs are based on how you drive and if you tow.

My oil gets changed about every 5-6000 miles. Maybe 7K if a lot of highway. I did not reset the monitor and it still had not come on at 10K.

The fuel filters should be done at 22k
My filters will get changed at the minimum once a year, but I have been doing fuel filters in the spring and just before the freezing weather sets in.

I buy my oil, fuel and air filters filters and fuel additives, regular and anti gel versions from DieselFiltersOnline.com
All Motorcraft parts and I make my orders in sufficient quantities to qualify for free shipping.

I also carry a spare filter set in the truck in two plastic coffee cans, one tall one 3 pound size. Gives me enough room to drain the primary and a place to store teh used filters.
I also bought a spare primary filter cap, drain plug and water sensor to simplify filter changes on the road.

The spare parts are about $50
Tousley Ford is a online discount Ford dealer.
http://www.tousleyfordparts.com/



From the 2011 diesel supplement:
For your convenience, your vehicle is equipped with a message center which determines the proper oil change service interval. You should
perform the engine oil change as indicated by the message center. The message center will display ENGINE OIL CHANGE SOON or OIL
CHANGE REQUIRED to indicate when an oil change is needed.

The engine oil change service needs to be completed within two weeks or
500 miles (800 km) after the OIL CHANGE REQUIRED message is displayed. Your oil change service interval can be up to one year or
10,000 miles (16,000 km) depending on operating conditions. Reset your Intelligent Oil Life Monitor™ after each engine oil and filter change; refer
to the Instrument Cluster chapter of the Owner’s Guide.

If your message center is prematurely reset or becomes inoperative, you should perform the oil change interval at six months, 5,000 miles
(8,000 km) or 200 engine hours from your last oil change.

Maximum oil change interval
❑ Normal schedule: As indicated by the message center (can be up to one year or 10,000 miles [16,000 km])
❑ Special operating conditions: Consult specific operating condition recommendations

Maximum fuel filter change interval
❑ Normal schedule: 22,500 miles (36,000 km) or as indicated by the message center (whichever comes first)
❑ Special operating conditions: 15,000 miles (24,000 km) or 600 engine hours; see appropriate schedule

 

[mmomega]

If you purchase the Motorcraft fuel filter it comes with both filters in the same box. These are the only ones I have used. Part #FD-4615
I have changed mine twice. 1st time at 5,000 miles and recently at 17,300.

Motorcraft Oil Filter Part # FL-2051
My first oil change was at 5,000miles, the second at 11,500 and most recent at 17,300 so I have been sticking to the 6,000-6,500 mile interval. Fuel filters I will change every 12,000 - 15,000.
Every new vehicle I have had, the first oil change has always been 5,000 or under. I put a good 1,200 miles on the truck with a good mix of city and highway driving before I towed the Landmark for the first time.

Already put another 1,000 miles on it since changing oil and fuel and it still seems to be running like a top. I actually gained a few mpgs this weekend going to see the in-laws even in a small headwind, I averaged 16.2 driving right at 75 mph over the 9 hours of highway with some city driving thrown in. Slightly better than the 14-15 max I was getting the trips before.

 

[Shelby-GT-500]

All of this talk about the 6.7 has certainly got me concerned.
How often should we be changing this fuel filter? Should one be changed more often than the other?

Thank you
Dick

Follow your manual on filter changes. The kit has two filters in it. The main filter is on the frame rail of the truck below the second door on drivers side. That filter has a drain on it you need to drain some fuel out every 30 days. Inspect it for water and metal. I like to drain into a black pan look for metal then pour into a glass jar to look for water. I think most drivers are not draining and inspecting. Other that possible water, at this point I think the only reason to do this is to know when you are having a failure. And if you are seems ford will not pay for it! Some people are not taking it to the dealer when metal is found, one on this forum and one more on another that I found. I guess I don't blame them. The one on the other forum has put 4,000km on the truck since finding metal not aluminum in the filter. Since it will not be covered why not get a few more miles out of them. I personally would take mine in or just not drive. I do not want to have a total failure in the woods somewhere when camping. That would suck! So I just wont take the chance if I have this problem. Fuel additives will help the situation and slow a failure that has started. The added lubricity will slow the grinding on a failing pump but I don't know how much time that will buy you before a catastrophic failure.

It would sure be nice to have Fords loyalty behind us on this issue but that is not the case. They will leave you hung out to dry on this one! What happens to the guys like Rick that have already had a failure repaired their trucks at their own expense and after putting another 10-30,000 miles on have another failure. ( knock on wood Rick!} This is a terrible burden for the consumer to carry!

 

[caissiel]

I have read about more ford problems here then on the 3 Ford sites I am a member of. There are over 500.6.7L on the road and the other dealers are blasting about a few failures.

Its like in 86 I was at a Ford. Dealer and this man was buying 2 tempos, one for him and one for his wife. He told me it was cheaper to maintain then one Honda. But Tempos were bad cars because there was 4 of them compared to any other japanese cars.

So these trucks must be ok if there are so many on the market. I do have a 6.0L and there are more of those on the road than any others. So if one fails its very small %.

My son had a 07 6.7 Ram and he was constantly at the dealer for warranty work. So after warranty over he got a new 2011 and told him he never learned from the first one. Well the last word I got from him is that he had a 2nd car. And his truck is parked at the dealers and they looking at doing an exhaust job on it to clean up the DPF system.

All western canadian do it to the Rams anyway

 

[Shelby-GT-500]

I have read about more ford problems here then on the 3 Ford sites I am a member of. There are over 500k 6n7L on the road and the others are blasting a bout a few failures.

Its like in 86 I was at a Ford. Dealer and this man was buying 2 tempos, one for him and one for his wife. He told me it was cheaper to maintain then one Honda. But Tempos were bad cars because there was 4 of them compared to any other japanese cars.

So these trucks must be ok if there are so many on the market. I do have a 6.0L and there are more of those on the road than any others. So if one fails its very small %.

My son had a 07 6.7 Ram and he was constantly at the dealer for warranty work. So after warranty over he got a new 2011 and told him he never learned from the first one. Well the last word I got from him is that he had a 2nd car. And his truck is parked at the dealers and they looking at doing an exhaust job on it to clean up the DPF system.

All western canadian do it to the Rams anyway

For some reason you guy's just don't get it. It's not the fact they have a failure. It's the fact that they will not cover an HPFP failure no mater what! Again Ford can chime in here and correct me at any time!

All manufactures have failures! I realize other brands brake down too. Whats your point?

The Ford HPFP should be covered in most cases!

So you are unhappy with the posters because they should just accept warranty denial, be happy about it and shut up?

 

[mmomega]

Say your truck lasts 250,000 miles with no warranty issues and you trade it in, will you come back finally and praise the truck.
Say your HPFP fails and Ford covers it, will you change your statement about Ford?

Point being, we're getting to the point of, this truck needs to prove itself before we say it is good. Or Ford needs to prove to me this or that, with the fact being that neither this truck nor Ford have let me down.......yet. So why should I worry? It isn't going to do anything to help me or anyone else... nothing.
One can care without being afraid they will be a victim.

Now Ric has a story, other than him noone else here has a documented case of their 6.7 crapping out on them. Or do they?

A headcount of members 2011-2012 super duties, mileage and documented problems would be cooler ... to me, to read.

 

[Shelby-GT-500]

Say your truck lasts 250,000 miles with no warranty issues and you trade it in, will you come back finally and praise the truck.
Say your HPFP fails and Ford covers it, will you change your statement about Ford?

Point being, we're getting to the point of, this truck needs to prove itself before we say it is good. Or Ford needs to prove to me this or that, with the fact being that neither this truck nor Ford have let me down.......yet. So why should I worry? It isn't going to do anything to help me or anyone else... nothing.
One can care without being afraid they will be a victim.

Now Ric has a story, other than him noone else here has a documented case of their 6.7 crapping out on them. Or do they?

A headcount of members 2011-2012 super duties, mileage and documented problems would be cooler ... to me, to read.

I do see your point that Ford has not let you down yet. I am sorry to say it looks like you do have a failure though. The HPFP just has not seized yet. I hope it lasts you a while but please let us know if you take it in for the repaire. You may be the first one posting about a covered repaire. At least we all hope anyway!

Again I ask why don't you understand what I am saying? I LOVE MY TRUCK! Just scares me to drive it! And yes if I have a failure and it is covered I will praise Ford for doing so!

There is not a single post of a covered failure on the internet that I can find. Also I have heard that since September of last year Ford has denied every single claim. I would be glad to hear From someone at Ford disputing this item. It would make me feel better about driving!

Would you not think it is reasonable for Ford to respond to this on the net. They have Google. They know there are hundreds of posts talking about no HPFP pumps being covered. They know it is costing sales. If they were repairing some wouldn't they post and say, we are repairing failures just not when customer put 5 gallons of DEF in the tank!

Please find one case on the net of a recent covered repair that can be verified.

Is it your contention that it is ok for Ford to deny every single HPFP failure?