Lippert Warranty Doesn't Care about safety!

[TXBobcat]

Larryheadhunter

And Box TxBobCat, I think it's great that you buy RV's knowing that you aren't satisfied with your purchase and you make a conscious effort to upgrade your rig and make expensive purchases. Some peole just require a rig that will perform safely and efficiently and will deal with a lesser expensive system the first time around. Is that a crime?

I know this upsets everyone when you have problems. It does so with me also. I am not wealthy, live on a limited income and have to live with in my financial means just like everyone else. If I had a million dollars I would not worry about a lot of things but I live month to month like everyone else.

However lets change the target for a bit....

If you bought a new house and after a couple of years the foundation cracked. It happens here in Texas because of the soil. Do you go back to the builder and tell them that they have to fix the foundation or rebuild the house. I think most would call a foundation company and have it fixed. Same if you bought a 5 year old house and the A/C went out, or you found a leak in the roof and had to replace the roof.
If you came to me and bought my 2006 F250 and drove it home and the transmission burned up after a couple of months, what do you do, come to me and tell me to replace it? No.. I try to keep my truck in good condition, but stuff happens.

You have to do as much research as possible before you purchase whatever you’re in the market for and keep going. Many houses were built this last year and because of the economy a lot of people had there house repossessed . If you bought one of these houses and found that there was a problem with the heating, Air Conditioning or foundation, do you go back to the builder, the previous owner or the bank and say that you want your money back or they have to repair it?? I don't think so.

It is our responsibility to know what we are investing in. What is that saying.. Buyer beware… However we do have a bit of advantage with Heartland. They do read the forum, discuss problems and we have a representative, (JimB) to put in our problems and opinions up to the company. Hopefully Heartland is listening and when we and others are ready to purchase a trailer we will take into account how much Heartland or any other Manufacturer is listening...

God has blessed us. We have had some problems but they have been corrected and we have never been in a dangerous situation. I have been proactive about correcting problems I am uncomfortable with. This is why I do not look into the future about buying another trailer. I will keep this one in as good condition as I can and make all the improvements to keep it in a condition to travel.

I know some of you have had very difficult problems and hopefully you can get them solved to your satisfaction. I am sympathetic to the problems your having. Discussing them on this forum will help others and Heartland, but stuff happens.

For me, as I was told many years ago, Cowboy up and keep going.. I have bigger problems to worry about. Heart attack, strokes, broken legs, getting old, having to stop fulltiming.

God Bless each of you and I hope your 2010 is loads of fun.

Respectfully
BC

 

[porthole]

So what is up with the Texas foundations? Masons can't build a foundation that is a match for the environment?

 

[lwmcguir]

I think a lot of you miss the point the folks that have had problems are making. We never had any issues at all that were major with any of our previous campers in 45 years. Quality Control now sucks at some companies, you can fill in the blanks of who they are and it isn't just one company. Major issues like frames and suspensions should be extremely limited and almost unheard of. I cant even recall any in our first 40 years of towing TT and Fifth Wheels. We have always had the larger one and went everywhere regardless of the roads. When you try to cut cost and weight to much things that aren't good happen. Folks have a right to be upset about that. It is up to the companies and the engineers to find ways to minimize these issues, not the consumers. Those of you that want to look the other way are the same crowd that would probably walk on by someone getting beaten or robbed. Let the folks vent that have a right to and help them when you can. Act like adults. I am sure that will get a few blood pressues up but so what.

 

[boatdoc]

I think many things now days have gone to the "Eye Candy" side of the tracks . It wasn't all that long ago that a 22' Winnabego was top notch and it got people down the road safely. You could even walk into it with sand on your feet from the beach or lake and not worry about messing something up on the floor. Bring us into todays RV's and I'd be shot for doing that in our 3670. All the fluff that we ALL seem to need has put a demand on the "eye candy" and with the added expence of it the Manufacturers have been forced to cut corners on the actual "stuff" that gets us to our destination. If we could do without the $500.00-$1000.00 "fluff" maybe the manufactures could put this money back where it needs to be or maybe we shouldn't complain about the extra money for the "fluff" and pony up. At this stage of my life I don't want to do either, lose the fluff or lose the running gear so I would pay the extra to get the good stuff underneath the "fluff" but it's not offered unless you go outside the OEM factory then we're looking at major bucks because it's not OEM. Surely the manus' can put better quality running gear on these for the $500.00 -$1000.00 and just tack it on, heck make it an option and let the consumer make the decision, off shore crap or made in America good stuff.
I can remember the days when we just piled in checked the tires for air, kicked them, and heck we always made it to the campground or where ever we were headed. Now it's a crapshoot.
I can't afford the big bucks to do the aftermarket stuff to the running gear right now but still love the 3670 and will continue to use it and keep our fingers crossed. No, we aren't going to sell it and buy a boat, I already know ALL about those, they payed for the trailer

In a nutshell, Take away some "fluff" and put it into the stuff that gets us there.
Soapbox put away, boatdoc

 

[beardedone]

It sounds like everyone in Texas must know about the basement problem but everyone didn't know about the frame problems on our trailers. If you know that the basements are weak in Texas I am sure that people must wonder why they can't engineer the problem out. There are lots of things that could be done I am sure. My trailer was not used and it happened to close to new to be compared to a basement cracking and settling.

 

[Larryheadhunter]

Hi everyone,

First of all thank you very much for all your kind comments especially Delaine and Lindy and for everyone's sage observations.

I am home now recovering from a real scary health situation. Nothing like feeling suffocated and not being able to catch my breath. I ended up with a stent within a stent and a 2 more angioplasties, due to a genetic coronary system I inherited from my mom, that my family thankfully forced me to address, against my objections. Thank you as well D & L for your sweet comments regarding my service to our country during the unpopular Vietnam war. It has shaped my life ever since. I didn't know that you knew I served. I also thank Larry Weltokowski who traveled from Florida for the Vietnam Vet hat I proudly wear, that he gave me at the Buellton rally on Veteran's Day in 2009.

Thanks Jim Gratz and TX Bobcat, you both make salient points and I appreciate your honesty. I think both of you are "right on", if you buy a used rig, that you can personally upgrade or fix, without too much trouble. In fact, anyone who puts those tool belts on get my applause. LOL But you both respectfully miss my point. Unfortunately many of us don't have those technical aptitudes and expect everything to work correctly on the first road trip or we are on the side of the road out of luck waiting for assistance.

The whole basis for this thread is for RVers that buy a new rig and expect everything to work as it was designed for all their road trips. The only reason I own a tool kit is if I break down and someone comes along that is adapt at fixing stuff, that can use my set, in case they don't have theirs tools along. LOL I don't think it's too much to expect that the quality of our new rigs is good enough that if the springs or suspension break down while driving down the road, like happened to me just after driving down a winding road without road barriers in Oregon, it will be replaced with parts that are substantially improved from the originals. I could blame the Chinese and their QC, but that's not the point. Lippert knows better and is responsible for what they put their name on, wherever they manufacture their products. If 3 leaf springs or 6,000 lb. axles break on a 14,800 lb rig, then replace them with 4 leaf springs and 7,000 lb axles. To me that's a no brainer. Or even better, start out charging slightly more to Heartland, and put better frames and stiffer suspensions on in the first place to alleviate that potential problem. Heartland may not be completely innocent, but it is my impression they trust the big name manufacturers to supply them with safe systems, and they should be able to do just that with clean hands.

As BoatDoc (Gary) said, the QC done before an RV is sent to the dealers should be excellent straight from the factory. We are the end users and deserve a product that meets or exceeds normal safety expectations. I wish I had a highly technical person with me during the PDI and on every trip, but that's not always possible. How would I know the pipes under the bathroom sink weren't on tight, causing a major leak, or that the vacuum doesn't even work, which I couldn't check because it's 110 volt, not 12 volt? Or that the connections on the fantastic fan thermostat didn't touch, causing those vents not to work, or that the wiring behind the walls was a hodgepodge of various wires looking like a spider web, with saw dust all over the place? How about the underbelly sagging, and water and rust gathering under the frame, so that people have to make holes to drain the water, or tanks that won't empty properly? Sorry to get off subject, but it's not just Lippert that I am upset with.

Returning to Lippert, it is a fact that a substantial amount of people agree with my assessment of Lippert's poor suspension package on their new RV's, as hundreds of threads and posts have written about on this subject on this very forum. Why would Lippert have the gall and arrogance to replace supposedly well built broken leaf springs and axles with the same size and strength? It is not surprising to me that Lippert sent their technicians under all the rigs at last year's national rally and fixed those they caught with similar problems or flat springs or plys,for free . Do you think they did this out of the goodness of their hearts and that the ratio of problems was eye brow raising? The fact that the good people of this forum came up with solutions or X bolts, or Mor/Ryde fixes speaks loudly for itself. The fact that Lippert didn't replace upgraded tires dollar for dollar that were ruined by their frame resting on those tires, telling us they don't warranty tires is appalling.

Many of us buying new RV's are just as technically challenged as I am. As Jim Beletti once said to me, many new buyers are technically challenged and it's a testament to them that even though they might hit a few obstacles the first time out as I did, they stay with it and learn to drive and operate their rigs safely, albeit with a higher cost insurance policy. LOL

If you are listening Lippert, consider these major frame and suspension issues and problems a recall waiting to happen. Please inspect or fix everyone's rig for free, that they spent lots of hard earned money on, before someone gets seriously hurt or killed due to Lippert's ignorance or inability to address. My wife and I, and every Heartland owner as well have every right to go on a road trip feeling comfortably safe. Take the proper safety measures so that we all can cruise along the road on weekends, holidays and every day of the week, not worrying about these type issues. Lippert, I will be waiting by my phone for your response, but I won't be holding my breath. I hope for everyone's sake, you step to the plate ASAP.

I am now off my soapbox. Let's all keep our fingers crossed that someone in power (hello Coley) is listening to us and will address these safety problems promptly.

 

[geeksrus]

I think a lot of you miss the point the folks that have had problems are making. We never had any issues at all that were major with any of our previous campers in 45 years. Quality Control now sucks at some companies, you can fill in the blanks of who they are and it isn't just one company. Major issues like frames and suspensions should be extremely limited and almost unheard of. I cant even recall any in our first 40 years of towing TT and Fifth Wheels. We have always had the larger one and went everywhere regardless of the roads. When you try to cut cost and weight to much things that aren't good happen. Folks have a right to be upset about that. It is up to the companies and the engineers to find ways to minimize these issues, not the consumers. Those of you that want to look the other way are the same crowd that would probably walk on by someone getting beaten or robbed. Let the folks vent that have a right to and help them when you can. Act like adults. I am sure that will get a few blood pressues up but so what.

Well said!

Eh!

 

[caissiel]

My 95 5th wheel pin frame broke after over 60k of towing. I did the structural calculation of the frame members and realised that the design was right on the flex limit of the steel used. But one electrician cut a 1.5" hole in the wrong place and weekend the frame. If it was not for that the frame would have lasted. My calculation was that the frame and pin were allowed to flex 1/2" when I placed the trailer on the hitch. And it actually did flex by as much. When I hitched my BC on the truck, it was the first thing I did check or I would have left it there on site. I was very satisfied with the little flex, but I was ready for flex for sure because steel flexes when loaded and its normal. If it did not it would surely be to heavy. If we allow the front of the trailer to move up and down on the truck I have a feeling that it flexes in some way at every move. That's why I use the stock pin hitch.

 

[porthole]

But one electrician cut a 1.5" hole in the wrong place and weekend the frame.

Similar problem we have with buildings that are on fire - electricians, plumbers, HVAC'ers etc

 

[Two Hands]

The right front leaf spring broke on my 2007 Big Horn 3055RL in late June, 2009. A leaf on the other side was bent into an ess shape and the others scored as though ready to break (according to the mechanic). The mechanic replaced the broken three leaf springs with four leaf springs and said three leaf springs were not strong enough for this fifth wheel. I corresponded by email with Lippert and they denied any reimbursement because I was out of warranty. The response to the allegation that the springs were too light for the trailer was that Lippert supplied the springs to Heartland and Heartland decided what springs to put on what unit. The information was also submitted to Heartland.

 

[scott b]

Lippert

Many of you have made good points , and while many are ready to hang Lippert for what they are producing , you need to remember that Lippert doesn't design these frames , Heartland does , and as such , should be the ones responsible for these failures. Just like an Architect designs a house , then they hire a builder to construct it. Lippert takes a set of plans {as per Heartland } and builds frames to those specs, the obvious reoccurring frame issues only proves that Heartland engineers have not adequately taken into consideration the margin of safety necessary to keep these types of problems from happening.

This is not to say that Lippert doesn't have welds that fail , or components that are less than great , or poor quality control. However as someone who has been on this site for the last couple of years , the one constant problem is under rated axles and springs, as well as Cheap tires. Lippert doesn't give a hoot what axles, springs , or tires they put on a unit, they put on what there customer tells them too , and there customer is Heartland.Do you blame Lippert for the poor plumbing,duct work, electrical, and so on? I know that they want to stay competitive, however at what cost ? If you really liked the Heartland product , and you compared it to another brand , and lets say there was a 2 thousand dollar difference, but that 2 grand was for heavier axles , better tires , would you say no the deal ? You never see anyone on this or any other forum ,complaining about having to much GVW , or tires that are just to darn good.

Quality control in the RV industry as a whole is bad , Heartland is not alone, however , some of the stuff the send out of there factory is shoddy to say the least, and I for one do not buy into the fact that the dealers are supposed to take responsibility for fixing it all , the fact is Heartland should do a better job of quality control before they ever send them out.

Recently there have been postings on this site about Heartlands progression in the Travel Trailer and 5th wheel market, they have posted comments by Heartland management , and they speak of number of units produced , and market share , but nothing about there commitment to striving for customer satisfaction or quality in there trailers. Some times you can be to close to the forest to see the trees ! Heartland builds a nice looking trailer, with great floor plans , they seem to have a good team of customer service personnel , but they are missing the boat by not addressing the recurring issues that plague so many owners. JB is a great representative , and fields as many questions , and problems as he can , but he is only one guy . If the guys in the shop were as conscientious as Jim , we probably wouldn't be having this post.

I hope none of you look at this posting ,as Heartland bashing , that is not my intent, it was only to point out that many of the problems folks are having , can be fixed before they happen, with Quality control by Heartland management. Scott

 

[boatdoc]

So why do we get passed on to Jolly Ol' Lippert when one of the problems occur. Then on the other end of the phone line we hear the same ol' song and dance of them trying to wiggle out of anything and everything they can. I was even told last summer that these problems are rare. These people had better wake up and realize that the world is connected and we all know how to "Google It".
Dang, just when my blood pressure was getting better.

 

[scott b]

Gary , I don't know why they handle the warranty process like that, i am sure there is a good reason , maybe JB will post the answer. I think that the people on this forum only make up a small percentage of Heartland owners, and the fact that the number of owners that have had problems with frame , tire ,and suspension problems, would hardly make it a Rare occurrence. Think of the all those that have similar problems that don't post here.

The part I have a hard time understanding is why aren't these things being addressed,not just the suspension stuff but ,the poor electrical, the plumbing, and ducting problems , leaking shower stalls, etc. These types of issues have been going on for a long time, not just with Heartland , but with other company's as well. How much more could it really cost to put on 7k axles , instead of 6k, Goodyears instead of Missions? I am not sure, but at the time of build , it is much less expensive than it will be down the road. TX bobcat, made some interesting comments in his post about the cost of these improvements, and in keeping within the weight he wanted to tow, and I agree with him , the cost of his trailer plus the extra 11000 got him what he wanted, however that extra probably would have been Half that , had it been done at the time of build. At the very least , Heartland should give the customer the option. ...Scott

 

[jbeletti]

Hi Scott,

I can give some feedback on this but I will preface it by saying this is not an official response from Heartland on these issues, just my own observations.

The reason it's not an official response is that I am not trained, experienced or employed in these areas and therefore, I am unqualified and un-approved to give such responses.

That said, here's how I see some of this:

• Axles - 6k vs 7k: We install axles/spring sets at a rating for the GVWR of the RV, less the pin-weight. Would it cost much more for us to over-axle/spring every RV we build? Well, it costs something, but have no idea as to how much. In "some" cases, a unit can be ordered with the next size up, if retail is willing to cover the cost. This can only happen on "retail sold" orders, not "dealer stocked units". And here again, sometimes we can sell you the upgrade and sometimes not. I'm not close enough to this (engineering, purchasing, production...) to know why.

• Poor Electrical: Honestly, out of all posts on the forum, I see very little in the way of "Heartland wiring errors". I am not saying we've not made errors - we have. Most of these sorts of errors would show up fairly early and hopefully within the warranty period.

• Poor Plumbing: Well, I've read 80,000 posts and there have been a number of plumbing related issues. We are not perfect in this area, but we continue to improve. When you build as many brands and floor plans as we do, when you have as many faucets, toilets and tankage as we do, the system becomes complex. With that complexity comes a higher chance of error up front or manifesting down the road. Remember not that long ago, when many RVs had much less tankage? The fresh water tank could go under a dinette seat or in a cabinet. This meant all the water lines could not be "above the floor". No lines below the floor means much less incidence of freezing them. How many sinks, showers and toilets did we have back then? I recall a truck camper and travel trailer we had. 1 sink, maybe 2. No outside shower, 1 toilet. Easy-peezy. I am not trying to make an excuse for any plumbing errors we have made - be they design or production related. I merely point out that these aren't our father's RVs, or the RVs of our youth - in most cases. The consumer wants more. More - has it's complexities. This said about plumbing, each year, we get better and better at offering more and more and do so at a higher build quality. I read an email today from a 2011 model year Cyclone owner who was impressed with the improvements over his older Cyclone. He's absolutely right. We listen to retail, to dealers, we read the failure reports from Customer Service, we have our eyes and ears open at rallies etc. We're trying hard to give you the most and do so accurately. Still not perfect - still trying hard.

• Poor Ducting: While we have made HUGE gains in this area on some brands (LM/BH/BC) with the dedicated heat runs to each register versus a tapped plenum system, on occasion, we've pinched a line, left a line too long or had a collar or knock-out, fall off the side of the furnace. By reading about these, paying for dealer repairs to these, we work with the production teams to produce a better quality product. Some say we don't have a QA department. Quite untrue. It's a large team of inspectors. But we know we cannot inspect quality into the product. Quality needs to be built into the product. So that is the goal - build quality into the product and inspect to ensure the quality is there. Both areas, production and quality assurance continue to strive for a better product. Each year, I believe we are seeing incremental gain in quality.

• Leaking shower stalls: If I've read this once, I've read it 100 times. Like it was a feature But it is not. And I apologize for making light of it. I believe we have this issue licked. If anyone with a 2011 model year unit has a shower that is leaking where the glass walls meet the metal channel at the bottom of the stall, please post this in the plumbing section of your brand on this forum and follow-up with our customer service department.

• Goodyear tires - put them on everything: Simply put, tire manufacturing capacity does not exist for us to supply a Goodyear tire on every RV we make. It is standard on some of our units and optional on several others. We can all probably agree that the RV tire industry saw a rough time of quality issues in 07/08 and perhaps early 09. This affected nearly all RV manufacturers except those whose production output was small enough that they could be supplied with a higher-end tire of their choice. Most everything I've read about anyone having tire failures is on production in that time frame. I hope this is behind us as an industry.

Before anyone begins quoting me or Heartland on anything I have stated above, let me reiterate to all readers that again, this is NOT an official stance or statement from Heartland RVs. Scott asked me to weigh in, and from a personal perspective, I have done so.

For those who are not aware, my position with Heartland is to administrate this forum and run the owners club. I do this from my home office in Chicago or wherever my travels take me. I do not have an office at a plant or the corporate office. I do not sit in on engineering or productions meetings. I have more information about Heartland process than you may, but I am not a subject matter expert on any department other than my own I do my best to keep you supplied with the latest information I can gather. But at the end of the day, I can't fix your coach and I can't compel customer service to do capitulate on anything you'd like them to. I am hear to listen and I do pass a LOT of information back to Corporate "on a daily basis".

Jim Beletti
Director of Owners Interests
Co-Founder/Admin, Heartland Owners Forum
President, Heartland Owners Club

 

[SouthernNights]

Jim,

On all the problems you have mentioned, you could have been talking about any RV built-not just HL.
With that said, YOU and several HL managers are the only ones from a factory I have seen respond on any open forum. (But I may have a missed one)

 

[SmokeyBare]

Your doing a Fantastic Job for Heartland Jim Beletti !!!!

I appreciate all you've done for us... I can't express well enough the words to begin to say...

Thank You​

Your da' Best-est... ​

 

[wyleyrabbit]

Jim,

As you know, I do my share of lurking on the forums and periodically do some posting here. Thank you again for doing the job that you do.

One of the deciding factors for us in purchasing our BigHorn over the other brand was this forum and the active participation we saw both from you and from product managers. I also went to the extent of talking with the product managers of the final two brands on our shortlist, and both guys were great. Time will tell whether we made the best decision, but we're almost one year in and so far, we're happy. Have there been problems along the way? Yes, and most have been fixed. We're still waiting for word back on a few others.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[Larryheadhunter]

Jim,
The reason I started this thread was to open the eyes of Lippert and HL management to the dangers that have presented themselves to many Heartland RV owners regarding frame and suspension issues. I threw in a little extra about the general QC of new Heartland rigs on general principle. Since I am not technically competent in the least, I had no clue that there would be so many problems upon my purchase of my 2009 Big Horn 3400RE. In fact, I believe the dealer or RV repair shops I frequented fixed approximately 32 problems during my first year of warranty ownership, with the great support of HL Customer Warranty Service with a smile.

I would appreciate a reply regarding Scott B's first post on this thread that basically said that Heartland tells Lippert what axle size and spring leaf count they should place in each unit is based on the GVWR. Is there some kind of certification that HL uses to determine this criteria, and if so, I think they need to revisit this issue. How could HL think they are even coming close to over axle/springing the suspension is incredible, as these breakdowns didn't occur out of thin air, over and over again, IMHO they happened because they all had under axle/springs installed, mostly with 3 spring leafs and 6,000 lb axles the main culprits. The excuse that most suspension breakages are from being overweight just aren't always true. I was weighed in the Las Vegas Rally in 2008 across from the Oasis RV Park at a CAT scale with Forrest Fetherolf as my witness as he did all the weighing and it was way underweight from the max. On this very forum in another post, I posted my true weight which was around 13,300 lbs. approximately.

Doesn't it seem odd that so many of our beautiful rigs are breaking down due to frame and suspension breakage, and certainly this should be addressed? If Lippert didn't feel safe making the suspension as ordered, why haven't they informed HL and the consumer? When they do break, we are told by HL customer service to call Lippert. If HL is responsible for their choices, why don't they react accordingly? I am planning to call Lippert this week and raise a stink regarding my rig, since they haven't responded to my and other owner's frequent complaints. I would also respectfully like the opportunity to speak to senior HL management about these issues if possible. As far as I am concerned, when I buy a large cost item, I expect it to perform safely and efficiently, not breakdown with the frame sitting on the tires. This is causing deep concern to all of us, especially if our suspension breaks on a winding, dangerous canyon road.

Jim, I would like to also agree with all others on this forum that know and appreciate you, that if it wasn't for your guidance and advice, I would most likely be done RVing. It is not an easy task to learn all the intricacies of operating a 14,800 lb. 5th wheel and a super duty truck as a rookie and you have been the most patient, understanding sounding board one could ever expect or imagine. Allow me to be very clear, I do not blame you personally for any of my observations on this thread. When I have a question, you answer me immediately, with sound, sage advice. You have been a great friend and mentor, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I don't believe this forum or the HL Owners Club would be nearly as effective without your strong guidance, so thanks buddy for all you have done to make my family's travels so exciting and stimulating. Your encouragement and guidance when I ran my first HL rally was immeasurable.

My beef as expressed on this thread, isn't directed at you, only at Heartland and Lippert. Thanks for the opportunity to openly and honestly address this suspension issue, without any editing or deleting any of my or other owners remarks. YOU ARE THE MAN and bless you for your dedication.

 

[boatdoc]

Jim, I mirror what Larry said word for word. We love our BigHorn and wouldn't trade it for anything. Being a mechanic for a billion years I realize that many of these SMALL problems are going to happen going down the road over time but some straight from the factory aren't called for. The running gear is a whole different animal in my mind and I hope Heratland gets things ironed out with Lippert IF they continue to use them, put some REAL springs under these rigs and be DONE with it. I can and have taken care of the little stuff, ie; Leaks, ducting and various other little tidbits.

Thanks again for all you do!!!!
I would have had a Heartland since 05' when I joined this forum but they were very scarce out here on the far left side back then. Still rather scarce down SoCal way according to my buddy that wants one.

 

[jbeletti]

Thread to be wrapped up on January 10th

Hey gang,

I plan to wrap this thread up on the 10th of this month. I have asked Larry to take the initiative to print off relevant commentary and communicate it to Lippert, based on his original intent.

Jim