"Lithium" batteries Lithium iron phosphate LiFePO4 12 volt DC battery

[porthole]

I'll start, maybe we can make a subject specific daughterboard?

The latest and greatest for those considering boon docking more, living off grid or just interested in more technology then what is a standard with our RV's

Battle Born (a brand) of lithium iron phosphate battery technology AKA LiFePO4, is quite popular by those living off grid or boon docking.

There is a lot of talk about positives and negatives (see where I went there)

For 12 volt DC storage, they are significantly lighter, charge much faster, have a lower self discharge, and can be discharged to 80% or more state of charge (SoC) or depth of discharge (DoC)
The only real negative is price, about 3-4 times more expensive then lead acid types.

But the cost can be offset by longevity, 10-15 years is the claim for properly maintained systems. To save you the trouble of looking it up, Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries are $950 each for a 12 volt, 100AH battery.

5 basic types of lithium battery composition.



Some posts of several battery safety websites.

"intrinsically non-combustible"


"In conclusion, don’t ever overcharge lithium cells and never, ever take them into over-discharge territory. A cell which has suffered a complete voltage collapse or polarity inversion is only good to be discarded immediately, even though it could appear that it can be somewhat recharged. Don’t try, don’t risk it".


"Phosphate based technology possesses superior thermal and chemical stability which provides better safety characteristics than those of Lithium-ion technology made with other cathode materials. Lithium phosphate cells are incombustible in the event of mishandling during charge or discharge, they are more stable under overcharge or short circuit conditions and they can withstand high temperatures without decomposing. When abuse does occur, the phosphate based cathode material will not burn and is not prone to thermal runaway. Phosphate chemistry also offers a longer cycle life."


"The lithium-iron (LiFePo4) battery has a slight edge over the Li-ion (LiCoO2) battery for safety. This is important because a battery should not get overheated or catch fire in case of overcharging.
The lithium-iron battery has superior chemical and thermal stability. A Lithium-iron battery remains cool at room temperature while the Li-ion may suffer thermal runaway and heats up faster under similar charging conditions".


"LiFePO4 is a nontoxic material, but LiCoO2 is hazardous in nature, so is not considered a safe material. Disposal of Li-ion battery is a big concern for the manufacturer and user."



​

 

[NWILSON]

I'm going to have to wait for the cheap Chinese knockoffs to hit EBay and even then I'll need a loan!

 

[porthole]

Re: "Lithium" batteries Lithium iron phosphate LiFePO4 12 volt DC battery

I'm going to have to wait for the cheap Chinese knockoffs to hit EBay and even then I'll need a loan!

Those are the last versions I would look at !

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Battery storage - Note: the regulations reflected here are for much larger storage capacities then we would ever see.

International Fire Code (IFC):


IFC 2015, Section 608
Section 608 applies to stationary storage battery systems having an electrolyte capacity of more than 50 gal for flooded lead-acid, nickel-cadmium (Ni-Cd), and VRLA or more than 1,000 lb for Li-ion and lithium-metal-polymer used for facility standby power, emergency power, or UPS.
As defined by IFC 608.6.1, room ventilation:
Ventilation shall be provided in accordance with the International Mechanical Code and the following:

• 1. For flooded lead-acid, flooded Ni-Cd, and VRLA batteries, the ventilation system shall be designed to limit the maximum concentration of hydrogen to 1% of the total volume of the room.
• 2. Continuous ventilation shall be provided at a rate of not less than 1 cfm/sq ft of floor area of the room.

Exception: Li-ion and lithium-metal-polymer batteries shall not require additional ventilation beyond that which would normally be required for human occupancy of the space in accordance with the International Mechanical Code.
The two ventilation requirements are not an "either/or" permissive option. This is contrary to the requirements of NFPA 1.
Other generic provisions of IFC Section 608 include the following:

• • Must prevent access to unauthorized personnel. This can be accomplished by either locating in separate room or in noncombustible cabinets. They may be located in the same room with the equipment they support.
• • Must provide spill control and neutralization for batteries with free-flowing electrolyte (i.e., flooded cell batteries). No specific threshold is given, but it is assumed to apply where greater than 50 gal. Not required for VRLA or lithium.
• • Must have proper supervision of ventilation system.
• • Must have signage on door.
• • Must have smoke detection.
• • Requires thermal runaway protection for VRLA batteries.
• • Li-ion and lithium-metal batteries don't require ventilation.

National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA)


NFPA 1-2015, Chapter 52
NFPA 1 is not as frequently adopted by municipalities as the IFC. While the basic requirements of NFPA 1 generally parallel those of the IFC, the technical provisions within NFPA 1 do have significant difference that can impacted the design of related battery ventilation systems. These requirements are as follows:
Chapter 52 applies to stationary storage battery systems having an electrolyte capacity of more than 100 gal in sprinklered buildings or 50 gal in nonsprinklered buildings for flooded lead-acid, Ni-Cd, and VRLA batteries or 1,000 lbs for Li-ion and lithium-metal-polymer batteries used for facility standby power, emergency power, or UPS. This is a significantly lower threshold than that in IFC.
NFPA 1, 52.3.6 Ventilation indicates:
For flooded lead-acid, flooded Ni-Cd, and VRLA batteries, ventilation shall be provided for rooms and cabinets in accordance with the International Mechanical Code and one of the following:

• 1. The ventilation system shall be designed to limit the maximum concentration of hydrogen to 1% of the total volume of the room during the worst-case event of simultaneous "boost" charging of all the batteries in accordance with nationally recognized standards.
• 2. Continuous ventilation shall be provided at a rate of not less than 1 cfm/sq ft of floor area of the room or cabinet.

This language allows for significantly more flexibility than IFC. Other provisions of Chapter 52 include the following, which are not addressed in the IFC:

• • In assembly, educational, detention, health care, day care, etc., battery systems shall be located in a room separate from other portions of the building and be 2-hour fire-rated.
• • Thermal runaway protection is required for lithium batteries.
• • Spill control is required where there are more than 55 gal in individual vessels or an aggregate capacity of greater than 1,000 gal.
• • The battery environment shall be controlled or analyzed to maintain temperatures in a safe operating range for the specific battery technology used. In the case of VRLA batteries, they're typically rated for an ambient of 77˚F. Although it is not specifically stated, this effectively requires that air conditioning be provided for most battery rooms.

 

[TexasTraveler2017]

Good info!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[porthole]

Good info!

I posted the following question to Battle Born, because of the tangent the other post you had took.

Hello,

I am researching batteries for my RV. Do these batteries require a battery compartment like conventional lead acid batteries?

If not, can they be installed in living spaces, cabinets or behind typical RV built in dressers etc?

Thanks,
Duane


The reply (within an hour)

Hey Duane

You don’t need a special compartment for them. You can set them up in a living space, cabinets or even a dresser.

Joey L

 

[bwdt]

I have been doing a lot of research on batteries and am hoping the new graphite batteries hit the market soon, but I believe that it will be several years before they show up. The will be cheaper than Lipo batteries and last much longer, plus no degradation.

From the research I have done, it is recommended that the batteries be put in the living space, this keeps them from getting to cold and to hot. You will find a lot of info on this if you search. Also, if you compare the price based on use over time, plus the actual cost of charging, they are much cheaper to use then anything out there at this time. There are some charts based on cost over time and cost to use over time and nothing seems to come close.

 

[TexasTraveler2017]

So far the Battle Born batteries are doing great. I didn’t have my battery monitor setup yet, but we left Dallas Thursday evening heading to Florida and didn’t hook up to electric until 24 hours later in Alabama. Not sure how far we drained them down, but the fridge ran the entire time. Granted the truck helps charge while driving, it doesn’t offset the entire amount used by the fridge.

While at Open Pond/Conecuh National Forrest campground in Alabama on Saturday, I finished getting the solar panels hooked up to the solar charge controller. I also got the battery monitor temporarily setup. Still need to install it inside the camper and run the cable to the shunt in the front bay.

We left Alabama Sunday morning and headed towards Lakeland, FL where we were going to boondock before getting to Fort Wilderness today. It rained the whole way, so solar was negligible. Also, with the Bluetooth battery monitor, I could see that the truck basically cut the amount of power the residential fridge was using in half. From 10-11 amp hours to about 5 or 6. This morning our batteries (3 - 100 amp hour batteries) were down to 49% after over 24 hours with little solar and just the trickle charge from the truck.

It’s definitely nice to not worry about running them too low. This morning we had some good sun and in about an hour it had already bumped up the batteries from 49% to about 55%.

We then got hooked up at the fort and had electric to finish charging them. Definitely thinking about adding a 4th (have room for one more under our dresser) and possibly upgrading the 1000 watt inverter so that we can maybe run TV’s or other things as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kjm1970]

I posted the following question to Battle Born, because of the tangent the other post you had took.

Hello,

I am researching batteries for my RV. Do these batteries require a battery compartment like conventional lead acid batteries?

If not, can they be installed in living spaces, cabinets or behind typical RV built in dressers etc?

Thanks,
Duane


The reply (within an hour)

Hey Duane

You don’t need a special compartment for them. You can set them up in a living space, cabinets or even a dresser.

Joey L

Duane,

I did solar (1100 watts)on my new rig with a lithium battery bank (6-100ah) that I was able to procure from Alibaba (yes from China lol). They seem to be working phenomenal. I was able to run my ac pretty much all day on the beach on a very sunny day (I was pulling in nearly 40 amps). I did a test at night and was able to run it for almost 6 hours. They really are incredible. Can't wait to show you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[porthole]

Well your usage goes against all the naysayers on facebunk !
Just one AC I presume?
Did you add any 'easy start' or similar devices to the AC?
Did you look to see what your draw is when running the AC?
Did you add a dedicated traditional battery for the generator? THe LiFePO4 sites advise against engine starting for the batteries but do not address small engines such as generators.

Looking forward to seeing it Kyle.

What inverter are you using?

Which truck are you bringing?



I'm redoing all my 12 volt wiring this weekend, moving batteries, the inverter and associated items and some AC 120 as well.

SOLAR will be the next big project when we finish the next 3 cap trips.

 

[kjm1970]

Well your usage goes against all the naysayers on facebunk !
Just one AC I presume?
Did you add any 'easy start' or similar devices to the AC?
Did you look to see what your draw is when running the AC?
Did you add a dedicated traditional battery for the generator? THe LiFePO4 sites advise against engine starting for the batteries but do not address small engines such as generators.

Looking forward to seeing it Kyle.

What inverter are you using?

Which truck are you bringing?



I'm redoing all my 12 volt wiring this weekend, moving batteries, the inverter and associated items and some AC 120 as well.

SOLAR will be the next big project when we finish the next 3 cap trips.

Duane,

I thought I'd need an easy start but I didn't. Only can run 1 ac so I run the middle one. My draw when running the AC was only like 12-14 amps. I haven't added a dedicated battery for the generator. I thought about it but didn't. I've got 2 inverters one for the fridge that came with the rig (I think it's a magnum 1000w) and I got a 3000w pure sine from Gopower. I put in a Victron Battery Monitor with 150/85 amp Solar Controller all Bluetooth. I'll give you a hand with the wiring as I'm sure you are going to give me some great ideas as I'd like to do mine as well. We're aren't bringing the Volvo as it's going in the shop Tuesday for a doser module and it won't be ready I bet, I picked up a 17 F350 last summer so we'll be coming down in that. Just Jill, I and the pooch. Congrats again on your retirement See you Thursday!


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[porthole]

Kyle, I have a hybrid 3000 watt inverter. It is wired with a subpanel. Basically everything but the AC's, fire place and dishwasher go through the inverter.
Because of that I am considering after the solar install to add a fridge only small inverter. Will depend on how well the solar will keep the batteries up with no shore power.
That would be an easy way to have the battery draw only be the fridge for non use times. And a backup to the main inverter to keep the beer cold in the event of a failure.

My inverter is a hybrid in that it will pull from the batteries to supplement the utility power if needed.

As a test I plugged into my 30 amp outlet at the house and set the EMS input to 20 amps. I ran one AC and then turned on the micro and coffee pot. With the other normal AC120 loads I was pulling 40 amps according to the meter on a 20 amp feed.

 

[wonka]

I'll start, maybe we can make a subject specific daughterboard?

The latest and greatest for those considering boon docking more, living off grid or just interested in more technology then what is a standard with our RV's

Battle Born (a brand) of lithium iron phosphate battery technology AKA LiFePO4, is quite popular by those living off grid or boon docking.

There is a lot of talk about positives and negatives (see where I went there)

For 12 volt DC storage, they are significantly lighter, charge much faster, have a lower self discharge, and can be discharged to 80% or more state of charge (SoC) or depth of discharge (DoC)
The only real negative is price, about 3-4 times more expensive then lead acid types.

But the cost can be offset by longevity, 10-15 years is the claim for properly maintained systems. To save you the trouble of looking it up, Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries are $950 each for a 12 volt, 100AH battery.

5 basic types of lithium battery composition.

View attachment 57273

Some posts of several battery safety websites.

"intrinsically non-combustible"


"In conclusion, don’t ever overcharge lithium cells and never, ever take them into over-discharge territory. A cell which has suffered a complete voltage collapse or polarity inversion is only good to be discarded immediately, even though it could appear that it can be somewhat recharged. Don’t try, don’t risk it".


"Phosphate based technology possesses superior thermal and chemical stability which provides better safety characteristics than those of Lithium-ion technology made with other cathode materials. Lithium phosphate cells are incombustible in the event of mishandling during charge or discharge, they are more stable under overcharge or short circuit conditions and they can withstand high temperatures without decomposing. When abuse does occur, the phosphate based cathode material will not burn and is not prone to thermal runaway. Phosphate chemistry also offers a longer cycle life."


"The lithium-iron (LiFePo4) battery has a slight edge over the Li-ion (LiCoO2) battery for safety. This is important because a battery should not get overheated or catch fire in case of overcharging.
The lithium-iron battery has superior chemical and thermal stability. A Lithium-iron battery remains cool at room temperature while the Li-ion may suffer thermal runaway and heats up faster under similar charging conditions".


"LiFePO4 is a nontoxic material, but LiCoO2 is hazardous in nature, so is not considered a safe material. Disposal of Li-ion battery is a big concern for the manufacturer and user."



​

So, curious as to your experience with the lithium batteries. How are they standing up? Any issues? Anything really stand out as an advantage?
thx

 

[porthole]

So, curious as to your experience with the lithium batteries. How are they standing up? Any issues? Anything really stand out as an advantage?
thx

They seem to be standing up the hype.
Adantage? I have 6 batteries, 600 usable amp hours at 174 pounds.

 

[nscaler2]

I'm going to have to wait for the cheap Chinese knockoffs to hit EBay and even then I'll need a loan!

Now that trump has once again, raised tariffs on the Chinese, the ones you are waiting on will probably, no longer be cheap. LOL

 

[rwdennis]

kjm 1970 , would you mind sharing which lipo you got , cost , shipping cost , does the stock charger charge them ? any other info needed to get some ?

 

[avvidclif]

Now that trump has once again, raised tariffs on the Chinese, the ones you are waiting on will probably, no longer be cheap. LOL

Doesn't bother me. I do my best not to buy chinese anything. I know I know, I have Sailun tires

 

[rwdennis]

Re: "Lithium" batteries Lithium iron phosphate LiFePO4 12 volt DC battery

I went to the Fontana Raceway rv show today , a company was selling 90 amp life batteries for 700.00 with a lifetime warranty . Ill dig through my bag of stuff i got and post more info .

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.

 

[mlpeloquin]

I am into RC airplanes. LiPO batteries do have a life that has to be watched. I have seen a battery start to self destruct inside a back pocket of our RC airplane club trainer. He felt the heat and slapped his backside as it was smoking. Thankfully he was able to pull the three batteries out of his back pocket. The one in questions quickly flamed and burned up. I asked him about how the last charge went with that battery. It charged almost fully short by 0.2V. In mil applications, the battery box must be designed with a water proof vent and such that it would be designed to fail breaking away from personal. So I am not against LiPO batteries, but I keep them in a surplus metal mil ammo box lined with cement board and calked with high temp fire calking with a small vent hole. Better safe than sorry. Cheep is not the way to go with any lithium battery.

 

[danemayer]

At the Goshen Rally last June, we heard about Battle Born Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. They claim theirs are safe. This is from the FAQ on their website.

[FONT=&quot]Our batteries are safe. All Battle Born Batteries use the safest and most stable components, including a LiFePO4 cathode and a built-in Battery Management System ([/FONT]BMS[FONT=&quot]). The BMS protects the cells against excessively high or low voltages, high currents, short circuits, and excessive heat or cold. These are the most common causes of battery failures, and we have taken every precaution to mitigate these risks in all of our batteries. In addition, all of our cells are manufactured in a state-of-the-art automated facility, and each cell is cycled multiple times to ensure quality and consistency.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Li-ion batteries can actually be safer than Lead acid batteries, which have no protection against ground faults. Our batteries have a built in BMS that protects against ground faults.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We strive to include all the best safety features into our battery, this is what makes us a leader in the deep cycle replacement market. We are constantly developing new innovations to increase safety in our batteries. At this point we feel we have one of the best systems available today.[/FONT]

 

[rwdennis]

Marc , i am too into rc aircraft , been flying since the mid 70s , I am currently on the Align Helicopter team( biggest rc heli manufacturer in the world ) , Ive seen people have good luck with economy lipos , seen some bad luck with top of the line lipos , and everything in between , but someone having a show special price on li-fes doesnt mean they are low quality .