Nitrogen . . . any thoughts on this?

[Jim.Allison]

I will repeat myself for those that are troubling themselves over this nitrogen gimmick

1) There is no benefit to running nitrogen in your tires. But if you are doing 250 mph into turn 1 there may be some razors edge calculation that shows a benefit. If its free it makes no difference, if nitrogen is all they have then put it in. but if they want $5 per tire decline it and tip a waitress $20 next time you dine out. You will feel better.

2) There is no benefit to running premium gasoline either. Lower compression motor eliminate the need for premium fuels. IF you need to run premium fuel your owners manual will state it very clearly. Todays modern motors can detect knocking and pinging caused by predetonation. SO you do not have to pay for gasoline that is designed to eliminate predetonation to run in a motor that is already designed to eliminate predetonation. However there may be times that it would not hurt to use premium. If I was pulling with a turbocharged gasoline motor, in the Arizona desert during the heat of the day, I might run premium because the load, turbo and the heat may set up a scenario where the design of the engine may not be able to cope with predetonation. But for everyday unloaded normal operating temperatures, I would not pay a premium price for a fuel that is doing absolutely nothing for me.

People work hard for the money that they use to buy their RVs and their TVs or for their cars for that matter. It is only natural for people to take care of them to the best of their ability. Marketers know about this tendency and exploit it to the best of their ability.

Have you ever seen the additive that is available at the pump in some places? You know you can push a button and get a fuel additive through the pump. There they have a picture of two valves, either intake or exhaust. One is ugly and caked up with what has to be carbon the other is pristine and looks brand new. I guarantee you that neither is true photo of a healthy gasoline motor. The ugly valve is out of a motor that is ready for the junk heap, and the pristine one just came out of the box, additive or no additive neither the intake or exhaust valve looks like that after 10,000 miles. Fuel injectors don't benefit from this either, there are two types of injectors in modern gasoline motors, throttle body and port injectors. They are not subject to fouling from the combustion chamber, but can be fouled by bad filtration. Buy filters not cleaners. I have a 04 mercury and had occasion to view an injector, there is nothing to it. It cannot dribble or clog up except if foreign material is introduced from the inside. Filtration is the key to clean injectors, BTW I have never used an additive of any kind. Its a gimmick and people buy this stuff everyday, its a huge market supported by people that want to take care of the vehicles that they work so hard to get.

Doing something different like using nitrogen to inflate tires, gets people stopping by to have their tires inflated, it also denotes that you are providing something that must be better than the other thing. When they stop by for nitrogen top off they are potential customers. While they are waiting they look at very sophisticated showrooms designed to sell them a new set of tires or oil change or some other service, perhaps you need some windshield wipers you have been neglecting to buy. Providing nitrogen is part of a marketing plan. Ask yourself, how can they buy compressed nitrogen, delivered to their location, or buy a compressor designed to extract nitrogen from the atmosphere? How can they afford to give that to you? They can't!!! The only way to afford it is to include it into a larger marketing plan. Tham putting nitrogen is not providing you with something you need, but rather providing them with a constant flow of customers into their location. Not only that, these customers have a propensity to buy all the bells a whistles. Its genius.

 

[pegmikef]

All I know is that ever since they put nitrogen in the tires in my wife's tires on her Expedition, the TPMS has stopped sounding off with its low tire warning when the temperature dropped to the twenties. Of course when she would come home and complain so I would checked the tires, they would be ok because they had warmed up from driving. That's reason enough for me to keep nitrogen in them regardless of everyone elses' opinions of its benefits. . . anyway it is free at my dealer.

 

[Nabo]

I also know that with nitrogen in the tires, the temp runs between 5-8 degrees cooler than with just standard air. We also notice that the pressure doesn't fluctuate as much.

 

[Bohemian]

Yes, it's true. If you pay a great deal more attention to your tires they will behave better. If you neglect them, you are more likely to have problems. It is difficult to do matched controlled experiments with all the many variables controlled.Here's the real best part of using N2. You will do no harm.

 

[Jim.Allison]

Nitrogen in ST tires, we are kidding right? Does anyone know the origin of the saying "pig in a poke?"

 

[Nabo]

Sorry Jim.Allison that you are so negative about nitrogen. There are a lot of companies, race teams and others who use nitrogen daily. Our experience over the last ten years have been that the tires run cooler and last longer. Nitrogen is widely accepted practice all over the world.

 

[Jim.Allison]

Hey since you called me out, I will respond that I'm not negative on the subject I'm realistic. Perhaps edmunds is negative also......

Taken from an article from edmunds.com
A member of the Dodge Challenger owners' forum was buying a new car from a dealer and noticed green valve-stem caps on all four tires. The salesman told him that the tires had been filled with nitrogen, which would keep the tire pressure and temperature more consistent and that it would prevent tire rot from the inside out. It wasn't a free add-on, though. The "nitrogen upgrade" was a $69 item on the supplemental window sticker. Another forum member later posted that his dealer was charging $179 for this same "upgrade."
Some dealerships and tire stores claim that filling your tires with nitrogen will save you money on gas while offering better performance than air. But a closer look reveals that nitrogen has few benefits and much higher costs. For starters, a typical nitrogen fill-up will cost you about $6 per tire.
Why Nitrogen?
The Get Nitrogen Institute Web site says that with nitrogen tire inflation, drivers will note improvements in a vehicle's handling, fuel efficiency and tire life. All this is achieved through better tire-pressure retention, improved fuel economy and cooler-running tire temperatures, the institute says.
This sounds great in theory but let's take a closer look at each of those claims.

• Better tire-pressure retention: Over time, a tire will gradually lose pressure. Changes in temperature will accelerate this. The general rule of thumb is a loss of 1 psi for every 10-degree rise or fall in temperature. The institute says that nitrogen has a more stable pressure, since it has larger molecules than oxygen that are less likely to seep through the permeable tire walls.
  
  In 2006, Consumer Reports conducted a year-long study to determine how much air loss was experienced in tires filled with nitrogen versus those filled with air. The results showed that nitrogen did reduce pressure loss over time, but it was only a 1.3 psi difference from air-filled tires. Among 31 pairs of tires, the average loss of air-filled tires was 3.5 psi from the initial 30 psi setting. Nitrogen-filled tires lost an average of 2.2 psi from the initial setting. Nitrogen won the test, but not by a significant margin.
• Improved fuel economy: The EPA says that under-inflated tires can lower gas mileage by 0.3 percent for every 1 psi drop in pressure of all four tires. The theory is that since nitrogen loses pressure at a slower rate than air, you are more likely to be at the correct psi and therefore get better fuel economy.
  
  If you are proactive and check your tire pressure at least once a month, you can offset this difference with free air, and you won't need expensive nitrogen. We think this invalidates the "better fuel economy with nitrogen" argument.
  
  For many people, however, this kind of maintenance is easier said than done. Most people either forget to regularly check and top off their tires, or never learned how to do it in the first place. Even Edmunds employees (typically a pretty car-savvy group) were under-inflating or over-inflating their tires, according to a tire-pressure study we conducted a few years ago.
  
  And though tire-pressure monitoring systems (TPMS) now come standard on cars, a 2009 National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (NHTSA) study found that only 57 percent of vehicles with TPMS had the correct tire pressure. That's because most systems are only meant to signal that a tire has very low pressure, not to show that the pressure is optimal.
• Cooler running temperatures: When air is pressurized, the humidity in it condenses to a liquid and collects in the air storage tank you use at the local gas station. When you add compressed air to the tire, the water comes along for the ride. As the tire heats up during driving, that water changes to a gas, which then expands, increasing tire pressure. Because nitrogen is dry, there is no water in the tire to contribute to pressure fluctuations.
  
  But this fluctuation in temperature isn't as significant as you might think. A 2008 ExxonMobil studyplotted the changes in temperature over the course of various inflation pressures. The lines on the graph were virtually on top of each other. In other words, the change in temperature when using nitrogen was negligible.
• Prevent wheel rot: Nitrogen proponents will also point out that water in a tire can lead to wheel rot. A tire engineer who anonymously maintains Barry's Tire Tech, a blog on a number of tire issues, says this isn't really a problem with modern cars.
  
  "Alloy wheels don't really have a problem with water inside the tire," the engineer writes in a post on nitrogen inflation. "They are coated to keep aluminum from forming aluminum oxide, which forms a crust, which isn't very attractive. But even then, this crust protects the aluminum from further corrosion from the water."
  
  Where wheels have problems is when the aluminum alloy contacts steel, such as the steel spring clip used on wheel weights. It's a particular issue when salt is present, the engineer writes. "But this problem is totally independent of the inflation gas," he says. "Steel wheels only have a problem if the paint is damaged."

Cost and Convenience
Let's say a person bought a set of tires at Costco, a place that uses nitrogen to fill all the tires they sell. If he needs to top off the tires with more nitrogen, he won't be able to go to just any gas station. He can use regular air if there is nothing else available, but that would dilute the nitrogen in the tires. He'll have to go back to Costco and wait until the tire technicians can attend to the car. On a busy day, he could be there awhile.
Nitrogen is free at Costco and at some car dealerships we called, but these are rare cases. We called a number of tire shops that carry nitrogen and found that the prices for a nitrogen fill ranged from $5-$7 per tire. Assuming our consumer was diligent about checking his tires monthly, he could potentially spend about $84 a year on nitrogen alone per tire. Compare that to the most gas stations, where air is free or a 75-cent fill-up for all four tires at the most.
Finding tire shops with nitrogen could be an issue, too. We called a number of large chains, including America's Tire Co., Discount Tire and Walmart. None carried nitrogen.
Is Nitrogen Worth It?
The air we breathe is made up of 78 percent nitrogen, 21 percent oxygen and a few other elements. To get the desired benefits for tires, nitrogen needs to be at least 93 percent pure, according to nitrogen service equipment providers quoted on Tirerack.com. So we're basically talking about adding an extra 15 percent of nitrogen and getting rid of as much oxygen as possible.
Based on cost, convenience and actual performance benefit, we don't think nitrogen is worth it. A much better use of your money would be to buy a good tire-pressure gauge and check your tires frequently. This is a good idea even if you have a tire-pressure monitoring system in your vehicle. The warning lights aren't required to come on until you have less than 25 percent of the recommended tire pressure. Having the correct tire pressure will get you many of the benefits of using nitrogen and will ensure that your tires last longer.

Sorry Jim.Allison that you are so negative about nitrogen. There are a lot of companies, race teams and others who use nitrogen daily. Our experience over the last ten years have been that the tires run cooler and last longer. Nitrogen is widely accepted practice all over the world.

 

[Jim.Allison]

Still buying nitrogen, then read this very well done article;

http://www.barrystiretech.com/nitrogeninflation.html

My family and I have put over 1,500,000 miles on tires since I became a licensed driver over 45 years ago. I have never, ever lost a tire do to internal tire rot because my atmospheric inflation gas contained both oxygen and or moisture. I have lost tires because I failed to inflate them properly before pulling a load. Or because the tire had a manufacturing defect. If you are even considering paying for nitrogen in you tires, I encourage you to study this subject thoroughly. I read story about a car dealership that put green valve stem caps on a car and was selling the green valve covers as nitrogen filled tires, being good for the environment, then on the same vehicle he would tell young men that the cap was for nitrogen filled tires that would make the car handle better.

This is reminiscent of the days when you would buy a car, after the deal was made the sales manager would fill out the paperwork and it was then that they informed you that in addition to the price you negotiated there was 300 buck worth of paint protectant and upholstery protectant added by the dealer.

In the case of the car salesman he was getting 80 bucks from one customer and 180 from another.

While it is true that people tend to be defensive when the news is broken to them that they have been ripped off, it is not my intent to point out how silly a person is for buying nitrogen but rather to help others to see what a sham it is.

It is one of the missions of this forum to inform others and help others. It is best we inform ourselves and help by not propagating myths so that we can have comfort in the knowledge that others are making the same mistakes you are. After all no-one want to be alone when they discover that they have been had. Its rather embarrassing to be the only one that bought a "pig in a poke"

Fear not if it were not for chumps, charlatans would not exist. And the fact it that there are lots of charlatans so there must be a lot of chumps. We are all chumps somehow or someway, it's up to us to have the critical thinking skills necessary to avert becoming a victim to a charlatan. One of my favorite actors was talked into spending his fortune on coffee enimas in Mexico as a cure for his cancer. So buy if you must, but do it with your eyes wide open. Believe me when I say, reject the price of nitrogen in your tires and tip your waitress better and you will get more for it.

 

[Bohemian]

If it will diffuse out, it will diffuse in at exactly the same rate until equilibrium is achieved. 78% N2, 20% O2, 1% H2O. The deviations from ideal gas properties (under which l gases are exactly he same) and heat capacities of N2 and O2 are almost exactly the same to within less than 0.01%. In other words their behavior as gasses are exactly the same to within less than 0.01%.

 

[NWILSON]

Sorry Jim.Allison that you are so negative about nitrogen. There are a lot of companies, race teams and others who use nitrogen daily. Our experience over the last ten years have been that the tires run cooler and last longer. Nitrogen is widely accepted practice all over the world.

Race teams do lots of things to get that microsecond edge that may mean the difference between a trophy and a loss. When it comes to cost vs return to the everyday driver....I'll take air!

 

[porthole]

To get the desired benefits for tires, nitrogen needs to be at least 93 percent pure, according to nitrogen service equipment providers quoted on Tirerack.com.

And therein lieth the lesson.

At least 93% pure comes from where?

92-95% is the highest "practical" percentage of N that is commercially available to us to be installed in our tires. Makes sense the the recommenders only recommend what that can actually pump.

The consumers report difference I'm sure is done with bench tested and calibrated gauges.
Personally, I would be more concerned whether my gauge is even accurate.

If you are still using the old style "stick": tire gauge, your wasting your time and or money even considering anything but plain old air.
But digital gauges are not all they are cracked up to be as well.

I'd be willing to bet at the next rally if 10 blokes go together with their respective tire gauges that there would be at least 5 different pressure readings. And I certainly would be surprised if every single rig at one of our rallies had the proper tire inflation on both truck and trailer.

The key to whatever gauge you use, whether 1% or only 5% accurate is to be consistent.

Because of my former career I probably have at least 10 digital and analog pressure gauges in and around my house. Never bothered to check to see if they all read the same, don't really care. I keep the cheap "Green Slime" $4 digital gauge handy for traveling, especially on the bike.

All tire pressure now get checked with my newest pressure gauge, which is supposed to be guaranteed accurate to 1% across the range. But how do I verify that accuracy?

Buy a good digital gauge and use the same gauge consistently. There are very accurate analog gauges out there, but given the same dial gauge and a few different people you can get a few different readings.

Now - to throw another bump.
I use "purified air" for all my tires, most of the time. I'm a diver and have a dozen or so high pressure tanks in my garage. I keep several with normal "air". My local shop does not just use a compressor with filters to get purified air in the tanks. Instead they fill tanks two different ways, depending on the quantity needed and the mix of O2, N and He.

So, I have my choice of cleaned air delivered at Grade E quality or, my shop can take pure N and pure O2 and blend it for me.

Sure is overkill, but I have 3500 PSI tanks in my garage and the regulators I need to drop the pressure sure make it easy to fill GoodYear G-114's!

Now, if a Nitrogen fill would keep me from having to add air to our bicycle tires every week, I'd be all over that.

 

[Jim.Allison]

Install a oil and water separator on your compressor and you have covered every benefit that the nitrogen hawkers claim. And you get to keep you money too. If you have a generator you can have pure dry air onboard with a simple $129 compressor and a water and oil separator. The same air that they use to paint body panels at body shops.

I remember when air was free, I almost choked when they installed a $1000 worth of equipment to collect .25 to air your tires. I still choke at .75, I will burn in hades before I spend $6 per tire (going rate) to fill tires with nitrogen even if they do top off for free. Factoring in the driving around required to get to a place to air tires.

How do you adjust cold tire inflation pressure at costco anyway. You you should not bleed out warm or hot air according to tire manufacturers, an under inflated tire could be shown to be inflated properly after you have pulled it to costco for any air, nitrogen or otherwise. The only way that you could properly adjust your cold tire inflation is if you had nitrogen at the location of your cold tires. I would say this is a major drawback of trying to maintain proper pressures and not pollute the nitrogen that you paid for so dearly.

 

[donr827]

Just sat down at the computer with a bag of popcorn and a beer.............Don

 

[porthole]

That's a popular emoticon on my bike forum