Water Tank and Water Pipes Location

[jc21]

Hi all,

I have postd here about water leaks since purchasing our Sundance 24rl since new in 2009 and have gotten some sound advise from the forum.

Anyway I have employed a RV mechanic to strip the underside to establish the locations of these leaks.He has asked me a question regarding what he beleives is a design flaw of the tank and pipe layout. I am ignorant of what he is trying to explain so I will post the question as follows
'Should the elbow junction where it is tied into the fresh water tank be tied onto the I BEAM'
The mechanic is of the opinion that this may be a DESIGN FLAW and is asking whether there has been recalls for this fault.

Also can someone tell me what is the water tank made off ie metal/plastic etc and how long should thse tanks last
.
Joe

 

[Ray LeTourneau]

Joe, I don't believe any fittings should be directly attached to the frame. Is it possible that the dealer that provided the very first service to correct the leak did this? Pictures would be very helpful so we could all understand your description. The tanks are made of a plastic material. They should last a very long time if properly supported and protected from rubbing on the frame and from UV exposure.

 

[jc21]

Hi Ray, the fittings described are HEARTLAND FACTORY FITTINGS.

Symptons ie water leakage was reported to HERATLANDS two days after purchase (brand new), however fault never repaired as the leaks never identified d by any dealer/

The room moderators do not allow me to post the ins and outs of this and other problem. (defective water pump)

I am at home (Ireland),5th wheel is in Florida. The RV engineer has sent me the reports but no pictures.

The reason why I ask about the water tank, the mechanic is surprised by the way it was fitted and the fact that bottom was cracked (worn away). His assessmet is that the water tank has been damged (worn away) for a long time (bottom of tank was moving about).

I am now at a stage that it may not be cost effective to carry out these repairs. I am now waiting to see if he has to replace the floor (water damage). If it costs too much then I wil be scrapping this unit.

End of a dream
JC

 

[danemayer]

Joe,

I noticed an earlier post that said

Hi, we had our Sundance 5th wheel parked up for 10 months. On checking equipment we have found both inside and outside shower hose heads both split.

Is it possible that the some of your problems might be traced back to how the unit was winterized? We live in Austin, TX and previously in South Florida. Freezes are uncommon, but they do occur.

 

[jpajax]

When looking at my last camper a 3410RE I like that the kitchen sink was back to back to the bathroom. That meant that all the water pipe was located some what in the center on camper and was all together and not run down the outer wall. This allowed me to heat them real easy when I camped in the winter.

 

[jc21]

Hi Dan, anything is possible, however without going into all the details (forum rules) the water leak started 2 days after purchasing the 5th wheel new in 2009. Current RV engineer agrees that it was these leaks that has caused the damage to the floor etc.
I am waiting on an answer from HEARTLAND to ascertain if there is any recall issues with the water pipes and their fixings.

Joe

 

[Ray LeTourneau]

Joe, help me understand how a leak in the fresh water tank area caused floor damage to your trailer. I have read all of your previous posts and in an earlier post you had mentioned that a dealer had actually done repairs and that when you arrived Stateside, the underbelly was all put together and you were under the assumption that all was good. It may be just as danemayer suggested, the dealer winterizing your trailer may have caused this. Sadly it's in your hands now. I can imagine how difficult this all is because you are not here.

On edit, I just read on a prior post where the water pump area was leaking causing the floor issue. I still wonder about the winterizing that was done. All of these problems you are talking about could be caused by freezing water lines and an expanding fresh water tank.

 

[jc21]

Hi Ray,
On 2 February 2009 I bought a new Sundance 24rl 5th wheel from a dealer in Tucson. I stayed overnight at the dealers site and on the 3 February 2009 left to store the rig in Texas pending my return to Ireland on the 7th Feb 2009.

We stayed two nights 3rd and 4th February 2009 at a RV PARK near Texas. When we were leaving the RV PARK we noticed a large volume of water leaking from the underside of the 5th wheel through the black membrane. This is the actual information I posted on this forum in February 2009
//heartlandowners.org/showthread.php/8469-New-XLT-Sundance-PROBLEMS?p=59991&highlight=#post59991
On this post you will see how I described the water leakage when I connected to the mains water.

I left the rig in with an RV mechanic (on the instructions of HEARTLAND) who stated that he did not find any leak when he attached to the mains water. He resealed the underbelly (he did not remove it).On my return in October 2009 I picked up the rig and continued my 5-7 week anual tour of America.

So therefore the winter storage theories could not have occurred unless the two days we spent in the RV park were at a significant freezing point, which I can assure they were not, although it is posible that freezing water lines as described could have made the problem worse.

In November 2011 I noticed a small leak from the underbelly. I contacted a RV mechanic to check the leak and what I now thought was a spongy living room floor.

The mechanic reported the following

1.The water pump has been leaking for a long long time and has soaked the living room floor and it may need replaced.
2. Identified water pipes attached to I frame as described above.
3. Water tank damaged as described above.


I may shown ignorance when describing the initial water fault, however I feel that I should got more than 30 weeks total usage of this 5th wheel before scrapping the unit.

I have asked HEARLAND to confirm that there are no design faults or recalls for this unit, to date I have had no reply.

As I said before the American dream has come to an end
Joe

 

[cookie]

Joe, you are in a tight spot living long distance and having this problem. I am sorry to hear that you will allow your American dream come to an end.
Being away makes it difficult for you to repair your rig yourself, which is what many of us would probably do. It would not cost much as a DIY.
In reading your posts, it kinda sounds like the first repairing dealer did not do his job. How can you effectively look for a water leak without removing the belly? Just sealing it off will not stop any leak. He obviously did not look at any other plumbing because your latest repair facility said that the water pump has been leaking a long time. You have not use the rig much.
In your thread on September of 09 it was asked if you used a pressure regulator. They are important to have. Some campgrounds have very high pressure and some have fluctuation up and down. That may have contributed.
I do hope you can come to some sort of resolution without crushing your dream. This is a great country with a lot to see.

Peace
Dave

 

[danemayer]

The mechanic reported the following

1.The water pump has been leaking for a long long time and has soaked the living room floor and it may need replaced.
2. Identified water pipes attached to I frame as described above.
3. Water tank damaged as described above.

Joe, service techs give you their opinions about what's wrong, and as you've described, the first guys may have made some mistakes or you wouldn't have had ongoing problems. So you might want to retain some skepticism about the opinion from the latest guy.

For example: he thinks the water pump has been leaking for a long time, soaking the floor. If this happened while you were using the RV, you would have had the water pump turned on, maybe in addition to using city water. I think you would have heard the water pump periodically cycling on and off to maintain pressure. The water pumps are fairly noisy and it would be hard to miss. If thinking back, you now recall that noise, maybe he's right about how the damage occurred. Of course, you would also have to ask yourself about why the pump was on and why the noise was ignored.

If the leak happened while not using the RV, it would mean that while stored, the rig was plugged into AC power, and the water pump was turned on, and the flood consisted of no more than the capacity of the fresh water tank. If not plugged in to AC, the battery would run down pretty quickly. If the rig was stored with the fresh tank full, maybe that would be enough to ruin the floor, assuming the pump was left on. But that entire scenario just doesn't make sense to me. And again, you have to ask yourself who turned the pump on.

There might be other scenarios, such as a defective check valve allowing water from the city water connection to leak through the water pump while it was off. But your service tech isn't describing this type of double failure. Maybe you should ask him about this possibility. If the pump was leaking AND there was a check valve failure, you could have been leaking water any time the city water was hooked up.

If it's a leak at the fresh water tank, or the T-connector, that by itself doesn't satisfactorily explain the floor damage. Maybe that's just a separate problem.

So what I'm saying is that the failure description you're relaying from the service tech suggests to me that maybe he's guessing and hasn't thought through the entire situation to figure out the real problem. You should ask him to explain his thinking more fully.

 

[2psnapod2]

You should ask him to explain his thinking more fully.

And ask him for some pictures also.

 

[danemayer]

If the pump was leaking AND there was a check valve failure, you could have been leaking water any time the city water was hooked up.

Joe, the more I think about the problems you've described, the more I think you have a check valve failure at the water pump. Because the city water and fresh water tank systems are joined together, the purpose of the check valve is to keep city water from flowing back through the water pump into the fresh water tank.

If the check valve failed, the whole time you're hooked up to city water, you would be forcing water through the water pump and back into the fresh tank. This might explain your early problems with water in the underbelly. If the fresh tank gets overfilled, it could start leaking, stress water line connections, and even rupture the tank. Water might come out of the tank, and at other points, including at the water pump.

If city water pressure was greater than 60 pounds (not uncommon), it would have exacerbated this problem. If the pressure were high enough, I wouldn't be surprised if it could damage the check valve, which I think is built into the water pump.

In any event, I would ask the tech to hook up to city water and see if water is flowing back through the water pump.

 

[2psnapod2]

The new Shurflo 5.7 pump does not have a check valve in it. I am having the issue described by Dan with it filling the fresh water tank. I even was told by Shurflo that it was not needing one but they found that the pump was not working like it was redesigned to. They thought that it would not need one. So I am in the process of having one put in. Shurflo has one on the web-site for about 12 bucks.

Hope this helps, at least with the original issue. Not much help with the floor.

 

[jmgratz]

Joe, I am trying to figure out why you are using this forum to complain about your problem as this is not the proper way to do that. If you are looking for answers or possible solutions to your problem from other owners then maybe this forum could help. But since it seems like this issue has been going on since 09 and not addressed it seems like the repair technicians that have diagnosing the problems have missed the cause and are only finding the results of the causes. It is too bad you are not here to be able to get your rig to the factory where they might be able to do a more thorough diagnosis. Water leaks are a real PITA to troubleshoot as water has a tendency to travel distances and where the damage is can be quite a ways from the actual leak. Also traveling in the rain can put so much water in the underbelly wetting many things a water leak can be thought to be there when one does not really exist. Maybe by working with the people at Heartland an actual solution to your problem will be found. Good Luck.

 

[jc21]

Hi Dave
It is possible the repairing dealer on behalf of HEARTLAND did not do his job.

In your thread on September of 09 it was asked if you used a pressure regulator. They are important to have. Some campgrounds have very high pressure and some have fluctuation up and down. That may have contributed.

At the time of the initial incident in February 2009 I checked with other RV users at that RV PARK and no one had any issues with the “WATER PRESSURE”. Since that day I have always used a water pressure regulator.

Hi Dan

For example: he thinks the water pump has been leaking for a long time, soaking the floor. If this happened while you were using the RV, you would have had the water pump turned on, maybe in addition to using city water. I think you would have heard the water pump periodically cycling on and off to maintain pressure. The water pumps are fairly noisy and it would be hard to miss. If thinking back, you now recall that noise, maybe he's right about how the damage occurred. Of course, you would also have to ask yourself about why the pump was on and why the noise was ignored.

I have already stated that I may have been ignorant of the workings of my unit and I think Dan you may be right as I can recall on a number of occasions hearing the water pump periodically coming on and off, but thought this was normal.

From the description from the current mechanic it would appear that he has identified three problems.
1. The water pump has been leaking for a long long time and has soaked the living room floor.
2. Water pipes attached to I frame which may or may not have caused the leak into the underside.
3. Water tank damaged due to initial incorrect installation also responsible for leak into the underside.

I believe that the water tank and pipes were defective when I purchased the rig in 2009 and got progressively worse as time went by. This would account for the water leaking from the under belly two days after purchasing the rig from new.
After each 6 week tour I along with an RV dealer would empty, clean and winterize the rig when stored, thus minimizing any chance of any further water damage.

The amount of damage caused to the wooden floor would tend to confirm an ongoing and prolonged leak from the water pump.


joe

 

[danemayer]

Joe,

My wife has a couple of things she periodically reminds me of. One is that RV owners just want to enjoy their RVs; they don't want to become experts on everything. Another is that sometimes we have to "speak the truth in love", meaning not as a criticism, but to help the other party come to a better understanding of a given situation.

Now while she expects to enjoy the RV without becoming a maintenance expert, she does expect me to take care of everything. So I start by reading the manuals to understand how things are supposed to work and what I'm expected to do. I have read the Heartland Manual and there are a couple of things from the plumbing section that might help you understand Heartland's viewpoint.

Fresh Water Lines
Vibration and flexing during traveling can cause pipes and fittings to work loose. Check all of the plumbing
connections for leaks on a regular basis and not less than annually. If the water pump runs when all faucets are turned
off, check for a leak. (emphasis added) Be sure the drain valves are closed. Connections and the kitchen and bathroom faucets normally seal with hand tightening and a half turn with a wrench. If a fitting leak persists, disconnect is completely and check for
mineral deposits or foreign material on the sealing surfaces. Clean the surfaces thoroughly and reinstall the fitting. Take
the coach to an authorized service center for repairs if the system continues to leak.

Water Pump
The RV water pump is a 12-volt DC appliance that is activated by a switch found on the monitor panel in the
kitchen area. This switch is designed to activate the pump. This is called a demand system.

If the pump continues to operate whether the faucet is open or closed, check the water tank to see if it
is empty and check to see if there is a leak in the system. (emphasis added)

☛NOTE
DO NOT RUN THE WATER PUMP WITHOUT WATER IN THE SYSTEM. ALWAYS KEEP THE PUMP
SWITCH OFF WHEN THE SYSTEM IS EMPTY OR WHEN CONNECTED TO CITY WATER. (emphasis added) RUNNING
THE PUMP DRY CAN DAMAGE IT AND VOID THE WARRANTY. WHEN LEAVING YOUR CAMPER OR
WHEN PULLING IT DOWN THE ROAD BE SURE TO TURN OFF YOUR WATER PUMP SWITCH.

When you say that the water pump has been leaking for a long time, whether you realize it or not, you're saying that the water pump has been on for that same long time because it isn't pressurized when not turned on. While the leak at the water pump probably indicates a manufacturing defect (perhaps in the pump), turning the pump on while hooked up to city water, contrary to manufacturer's instructions, would be a contributing factor. Said another way, if you're hooked up to city water 99% of the time, and the pump was off, you would not have had any significant leakage onto the flooring (unless there's a check valve defect, as I previously wrote).

Now even though you routinely use a pressure regulator (implying city water connection), perhaps you also do a lot of dry camping where you depend on the water pump and have no city water. Still, from Heartland's point of view, the manual warns that if the pump runs when the faucets are closed, you need to check for a leak.

Believe me, I would also be extremely distressed if I were facing thousands of dollars in repairs. But if there was a possibility that I had in any way not followed the manufacturers directions, or noted their warnings, my disappointment in the manufacturer would be tempered a bit. From Heartland's point of view, following the manual's instructions would have avoided much of the damage you've experienced.

Again, I don't intend for this to sound like a criticism of you; RVs are complex systems and very few of us want to become experts. We just want everything to work. But from the manufacturer's perspective, things can and do go wrong, either as a result of defects, but also from improper operation or inattention. They do their best to minimize the defects and to help educate owners as to proper operation. Nevertheless, they're human; we're human. Mistakes happen. We do our best to correct them and live our lives.

I would still suggest you have the tech investigate the possibility of water flowing the wrong way through the pump when you're hooked up to city water. If that's the root cause, it would have happened when the pump was off and would have been silently damaging the floor and probably the fresh water tank and fittings. Even though you're way out of warranty, Heartland might be more understanding of your situation if that's what caused the damage.

 

[Ray LeTourneau]

Well said Dan, Thanks for taking the time to post such a thorough response.
I have to add, Joe has done a very good job of trying to explain his situation. For that reason, this thread has been allowed to continue. All we can do at this point is hope that he can come to some resolution. As it's been said many times here, if you own an RV, you have to be a bit of a handy man.

 

[2psnapod2]

It seems as if Joe has been the victim of a bad repair man and now maybe he has found one that has some knowledge and is trying to help. But Heartland really does not have any control of the dealers that choice to handle their products.

 

[Willym]

Just another thought. Since the pump check valve (or other such back flow prevention device in the case of the Extreme series) is built into the pump, the pump can leak when off and when city water pressure is present. i.e. the check valve may be functioning correctly, but a faulty joint in the pump casing could leak when on city water.

 

[jc21]

Hi All, sorry computer crashed whilst trying to reply to the latest posts.
I received an email from mechanic he has repaired the water tank, moved the pipework from the I Beam and is in the process of either repairing or replacing the defective water pump. He is hopeful that he will NOT have to replace the whole wooden floor.
A few points I would like to clear up from some of the latest posts.
Hi Willym – Your posts make sense of what I have been trying to explain. I have passed your ideas to the mechanic. Thank you for expertise.
Hi 2PSNAPOD. No I have not been the victim of a bad repair man I have been guilty of not explaining the type of leak I witnessed and for not knowing how my 5[SUP]th[/SUP] wheel works (as DANEMAYER pointed out). If anything I have been the victim of poor workmanship and poor supervision from the builder and the dealer.
Hi DANEMAYER my father always said an amateur will sometimes get it right while an expert will sometimes get it wrong. I accept that I am not fully aware of the complete workings of my 5[SUP]th[/SUP] wheel. During the last three years my 5[SUP]th[/SUP] wheel was used no more than 30 weeks and I minimised as many risks as possible by paying a qualified engineer to service my vehicles before and after each trip. I also employed storage staff to regularly check for damage during any adverse weather conditions. I have receipts totalling thousands of dollars which bear out these regular checks. During the last three years the 5[SUP]th[/SUP] wheel was used no more than 30 weeks. In respect of the other points you raised:

1. I plead ignorance to your first point. On occasions when I used the water pump I did hear the pump activate when not using the faucets, however the amount of times I used the pump would probably be no more than 20 times as I always used city mains and the water pump would never have been on.
2. No obvious leaks were identified, however it would seem to check the water tank and pipes under the floor I or a mechanic would have to remove the sealed underbelly. When this was done in December 2011 that was when we found out the extent of the damage and the extremely poor workmanship. The mechanic was concerned about attaching pipes to the I Beam and the general poor fitting of the tank. I regularly checked for leaks under the faucets but no leaks were ever seen coming from above the floor.
3. AT NO TIME DID I RUN THE WATER PUMP WITHOUT WATER IN THE SYSTEM AND THE WATER PUMP WAS ALWAYS OFF WHEN CONNECTED TO CITY WATER (emphasis added). As I said before water pump would have been off whilst using city water, driving.
4. If you read Willym post it would appear that you are wrong with your assumption that the water pump had been left on for a long time (emphasis added). Rig was never stored connected to the water mains or electric power.
5. As stated the only time I would dry camp would have been travelling from A to B and stopped at layby/Wallmart for 2-3 hours of a break.
6. 95% of your assumptions do not apply to this case, but I thank you for pointing out all the possibilities that could have resulted in this damage thus exonerating me from causing so much damage.
7. I and my mechanic agree with your sensible solution in your last paragraph, however I have spoken to customer service, Mr Fenner and Mr Schueneman. They have stated the unit is out of warranty and that Heartland will offer no assistance. I have also asked customer service if this particular unit has any recalls or design issues concerning the water system. I have had no response regarding these points. By sharing my experiences in this forum I have been able to carry out the repairs.

With all the help from this forum it is possible that my American has not ended, but certainly it has educated me who to trust when parting with a large part of my pension to fulfil a lifes dream.