50-amp Service FINALLY

THAT is a great link to some IMPORTANT INFORMATION on limits.
Thanks for this. There are many other skeptical readers here who did not want to believe
my 80% rule (as provided by a Journeyman Electrician in the business for 40 plus years. HE IS AN RV-ER
and advised me on that rule.
Thanks!
 

jerryjay11

Well-known member
You mean to tell me that you have NEVER RUN YOUR 3 A/C units at the same time (mine has three) and then had your Wife using the Vacuum and you then decide to run the Microwave (to bake a pie, 30 minutes) and then you decide to start a Roast (45 mins) at 375 degrees?

THAT happens to me all of the time. JUST KIDDING.

Jerryjay 11, think in the extreme that it is VERY possible to run more than 40 amps for an extended period of time.

DO THE MATH. I do not have time, but we HAVE HAD A Diesel pusher (several) since 1997, and we managed to trip a breaker in just that sort of situation with only 2 A/C's running (116 degrees outside) and I was recovering from Surgery (in the back bedroom, watching a Game) and we were at my Dad's place, and the Big CAL FIRE ("AUGUST FIRE") was blazing within 10 miles and we were COMPLETELY SHUT IN trying to stay cool.

In that case, you could easily, in an extended extreme situation, heat up one leg of a 50-amp service EASILY. Have you ever been in an RV at 116 Degrees F. WE HAVE MANY TIMES and we would continuously run ALL of our A/C, water heater left on (by mistake - not on purpose - - on A/C) and then my wife forgets and ran the drier for 60 minutes and I then got super smart, under meds and decide to use the Convection Oven....I was BRAIN DEAD and sure enough, it was at 48 amps for an extended period and both power legs of our 50-amp plug were fried.

I learned the hard way. YES, that is extreme but believe you me, I was an engineer myself and we ALWAYS Designed our Motherboards (I owned a PC MOTHERBOARD business selling main boards to Gateway, Dell, etc.) and we designed our boards for the EXTREME! That was purposeful.

We were Q-A'd at less than .05% DOA rates. Look up DOA.
Well, that kind of explains it. But then you said your power blug fried, not the CB. I was more curious about the extended 3-hour time that in reference to the CB. That was more likely the blades on the plug were not making a tight contact on the receptacle. Could have been the fault of your plug, but most likely the receptacle contacts that have taken a lot of abuse from past campers. But I get your point about how you can run up your amperage on those big rigs.

To answer your first question: Nope, never ever ran my 3 AC's. Probably because I only have one.

P.S. How did that pie come out, baking it in the microwave? I've never tried that.
 

jerryjay11

Well-known member
THAT is a great link to some IMPORTANT INFORMATION on limits.
Thanks for this. There are many other skeptical readers here who did not want to believe
my 80% rule (as provided by a Journeyman Electrician in the business for 40 plus years. HE IS AN RV-ER
and advised me on that rule.
Thanks!
Hey, MR D,

I didn't say I'm a non-believer. Just never heard of the 80% rule and now I have been enlightened.
 

taskswap

Well-known member
Folks, just a gentle reminder that breakers protect wires, not devices. I worry especially that some of the linked-to articles may be written for more skilled readers, and novices might interpret them the wrong way, especially in the context of RVs.

Breakers prevent electrical fires by preventing wires from getting so hot that they melt and/or creep out from things like screw terminals and cause arcing. You size wires to devices, and breakers to wires. It seems like a nuance, but there's some language here and in the linked articles that makes it sound like you size breakers to devices, and that could lead to some dangerous decisions. One of the articles makes it sound like breaker selection is a flexible thing. Once a wire is installed, it's absolutely not flexible. A breaker should never be up-sized to support a larger load without replacing the wire. It could start a fire.

The "80% rule" is not (directly) about safety. The folks who author the NEC think about this stuff on multiple levels and they incorporate records of past problems in their guidelines. "Nuisance trips" is one of those things. There's no mechanical/electrical reason a breaker MUST be undersized e.g. to 80%. It's perfectly fine ("safe") if it trips after a few hours. Your house won't burn down. But breakers/fuses tripping too often have led to problems in the past when homeowners would shove pennies or screwdrivers in there to stop it them from tripping, just so they could get their clothes dry for work tomorrow. They make bad decisions under pressure, and reducing that is still a safety improvement even if the breaker, wire, and device were fine either way. So they made allowances for that with very explicit language like the "Continuous load" (3 hour) rule.

The bulk of the NEC and its tables are "prescriptive". All of this stuff can be determined much more accurately with actual math, but it takes a long time to do it right and it's really easy to make mistakes, so they boiled all this down and gave us rules and tables to follow. If we stick to them, we have plenty of safety margin built in, and an electrician can extend a circuit and a homeowner can pay a reasonable $200 for that. The electrician can say "well it meets code, and the inspector approved it" and sleep well that night, and the homeowner can grumble about the $200 without realizing it could have been "$1000 plus you might still die in a fire," and everybody wins, even if they don't always see it that way. :)

Unfortunately, RVs throw all of this right out the window. RV manufacturers do not need to comply with the NEC, and some like Heartland seem to almost gleefully defy it. The wiring in the basement of our Milestone would make an electrician weep. You really can't trust or rely on anything in an RV because they just run things however they want, and nothing gets inspected. Every single circuit requires investigation and careful thought, and I would just suggest that we all be thoughtful about quoting the NEC or "my professional electrician friend" because while they might be right, they might not even realize how many corners the manufacturer cut.

I worry that some readers might try to apply "NEC" rules to a system that never complied with the NEC in the first place, and assume they're safe. When we link to articles that support these positions (but were written focusing on household systems our RVs rarely comply with anyway) it might add weight to something that was wrong to begin with - not our fault, of course, but still. Food for thought. Anyway, sorry this was so long, but it might be worth considering.
 
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