Ford F-250/350 or Ram 2500/3500

[Jim.Allison]

I have a 2010 Ram with a Cummins. One of the things they don't tell you when you buy a diesel is the high cost of maintenance. Mine needs a fuel filter every 15,000 miles. Cost of the filter is now up to about $60.00 for the part. About $100.00 installed. Oil change? Every 5,000 miles cost around $90.00 at a dealer. Do it yourself...3 gallons of oil about $45.00, filter about $20.00....I'm currently in the middle of a required emission service. It was due at 67,500 miles. Even has an idiot light to tell you that. I let mine go a little past that and got a check engine light. Requires a new Crankcase vent filter, remove and clean the EGR valve, remove and clean the EGR cooler. Dealer gets $600.00-800.00 for this service. I paid $120.00 for the parts. My back is sore and I still don't have it all apart. Wish I had brought it to the dealer at this point...Oh yeah, Diesel fuel has been about $0.40 a gallon higher than gas for along time around here...Where's the savings? In just the last 4 years the tow ratings and GVWR have gone up in the new Rams to a point where they have more capacity than my diesel...I know what my next truck will have. I don't need anymore load capacity, my trailer's as big as it's going to get. Gasser is about 8K cheaper too....Don

Not true anymore, oil and filter change 15,000 miles (fifteen thousand miles), oil filter Cummins (stratopore) $13, or less. Fuel filters about $80 bucks, oil $39 from NAPA (valvoline endorsed by Cummins), do it yourself on a Saturday morning. Or your dealer sends coupons. My fuel filter and water separator filter were in good shape and I did not have to change them on last 15,000 mile service but did anyway. So $133 buck in 15,000 miles, Driving a 7400 lb vehicle getting between 17and 22 MPG, sporting 370 HP and 800 foot pounds of torque. There is no question which is better, it is the price of admission at almost $8000 that one should be concerned about.

 

[Jim.Allison]

If you look at the features of each HD diesel pickup, I think that you can find pluses and minuses to each one. You must match yourself to those pluses and minuses. However, this does not diminish the fact that Duramax and Cummins are not having problems with their diesels to the extent that Ford is. But the real question is which is the best when you decide to go with the gasoline power plant. I don't know about other vehicles, but I have a 04 Mercury that has a v8motor in it that says FORD right on top of it, it runs like a "ruptured duck." I have 150,000 miles on it, My total maintenance on the motor is $50 since 04, it has never been back to the dealer for warranty service. Soooooo If I was looking for a gasoline HD truck I don't really know which way I would go, I might go back to look at the "King Ranch" edition of the Ford. ----Just thinking out loud

 

[Shortest Straw]

I used to be a Chevy guy and now I drive a ford for only one reason, the 7.3 in it. Most of our ambulances have these motors in them and you cannot kill them. With below zero weather we would wake up in the middle of the night and be doing 50 mph plus almost immediately, same with 100 degree weather. Some days we never turned those ambulances off. I had over 300,000 miles on one rig before they took it away from us and it would still flat out move down the road. When the company I worked for switched to the 6.0's and then the 6.4's we were blowing turbos like crazy and the motors were not holding up. This is in a fleet of about 60 ambulances. Now with the 6.7's things are almost back to being as reliable as the 7.3's. Ive done some mods to my f350 for longevity and fuel mileage and the transmission rebuild was completely my fault. During this time my son has been going through Ram parts like crazy. He likes the pick-up style though and just recently bought another. I think the biggest problems with diesels these days are the folks who own a diesel just because they think it is super cool to blow black smoke everywhere. Of course then the EPA and tree huggers combine to come up with things to snuff your engines ability to make true unfettered horsepower and lay that on the pavement.

 

[Jim.Allison]

One thing is for sure, you will never see a failed #7 or #8 cylinder on a Cummins. That is definitely a Ford thing. I think you are right though, I wonder if some of these Ford sales people are not causing some of engine failures?

 

[porthole]

I don't really know where you get your information but the Cummins "B" block is not a lightweight motor. It is used in industrial application from boats to busses since its introduction in 1989. Nothing lightweight about it. The Cummins rotating assembly and head probably weighs more than the entire Ford diesel motor. Read up on it and you will find that it is not uncommon for a cummins to run way past 500,000 miles.

500K. OK, I'll buy. But, In longevity of the three, only the cummins in general has been around long enough to skew any longevity reports.
I'd like to see real world longevity numbers that start once all 3 started using DEF.

OK, maybe "lightweight" wasn't completely correct for the cummins in a dodge. But, when I did work on them and I did spend a week at the Chrysler training center learning about them and tearing them down, one thing that was brought up and not expounded on was the some internals were Chrysler specific with no crossover part number to cummins.
You can speculate on your own from there. Downgraded parts - then, maybe not now.
Mine was real world not something out of diesel power magazine etc.

And if youtube was around back in the 80's and 90's there would be videos of cummin's, dmax's torn down in shops.
I worked for a Cat dealer for awhile, and while I was in the fork lift division, since I had experience on them, I did my fair share of 3208 cats. They break too. And when the "lightweight" 3116 came there were more then a fair share of those engines failing. Even the high end heavy duty diesels can fail. Ever hear of the " ManGrenades"? 6-71 TIB's (great engine, just way to much power extracted).

Show me anything about a Cummins or Duramax even remotely similar to this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EopM4ExiN_I

Job 1 6.7's have a known issue with valve breakage. I wish I had some pictures of the cummins when they use to blow the top off using ether. Of course it doesn't happen anymore because of improvement and changes along the way. Same with DMax issues. They were not always perfect, but by the 2006 version they got it down pretty good.

As far as the truck being bought by haulers because its cheap is a flawed notion, all manufacturers have a base model and under your thinking you should see equal numbers on the highway. There is not a dimes worth of difference in the selling price of these vehicles. In the end the consumer determines the price by demanding x quality for x value.

I didn't say cheap - I said least expensive. A base model truck, standard cab, 8' bed, 4x4 diesel, 3500-350 series goes in base pricing from Dodge, to GM to Ford (GM and Ford seem to flip back and forth) .
That is not completely up to date though as the 2015 Ram is not priced out yet on the Ram "build and price" site yet.
It doesn't mean one is better then the other, just one is initially less expensive to buy, especially assuming that those that wish can still get a manual trans in the Ram.

the fact that Duramax and Cummins are not having problems with their diesels to the extent that Ford is.

All 3 as well as Volkswagon have problems with high pressure fuel and the fuel lubricity challenge.
The big difference is that dodge and gm are covering the very expensive repairs under warranty and for the most part ford has been denying warranty repairs.

The net abounds with forums just like this one that many people come to when they have problems, and not necessarily to expound on the virtues of a product.

 

[Jim.Allison]

I just wonder if the Ford is that it is such a neat truck, that sales people are taking them out and flogging the **** out of them with potential buyers. I know I was encouraged to test out the performance by a sales person each time I test drove one. This could be the reason for early failures in the Ford. In industrial application where there is more than one operator, I would assume that inexperienced diesel oporators like to try out the HP and torque to the max, when the boss is not looking. This scenario could explain a lot. The v8 Ford diesel does have what it takes in performance to unravel if not used correctly. In the past diesels were limited generally speaking to those that needed them, now every one has one. The way ford is handling it is opening the door to RAM and GMC to take their business. I almost bought one because I was impressed but changed my mind at the last minute when I discovered what was going on. You and I are not the judge of any of this, the market is. And the market has a peculiar way of picking winners and losers.

 

[porthole]

This would not sway my decision one way or another, but, these are pics from my partner at work.

2013 6.7 with just over 5,000 miles.

Good thing with the Ford's and DMax's though, is you will never see a failed #9 or 10 cylinder

 

[scottyb]

2013 6.7 with just over 5,000 miles.

Nice window.

 

[Gaffer]

Be sure to do a good comparison of the factory exhaust brake. The Dodge one works great. I have heard that the Ford one not so much. Haven't heard one way or the other on GM. I never touch my service brakes down hill with the exhaust brake on in 4th gear and 6% grade. This got me over 100,000 miles on my OEM front brakes.

 

[Bohemian]

Ford upgraded the turbo and the exhaust brake for 2015. They claim in now performs great.

They replaced two small turbos with one large turbo.

 

[JanAndBill]

Just announced that the new Cummins 5.0 V8 diesel will be offered in Toyota and Nissan Trucks. Cummins also announced that they have a "commercial" version scheduled for the RV and medium duty truck market. Could this mean the end of the inline 6 in the light and medium duty market??? Also, I can't help but wonder how many "gremlins" will crop up in this new engine?

 

[Jim.Allison]

I guess that is a thrown rod on a Ram Truck! Cool. Are they having problems with throwing piston rods?

I think you misunderstand me. I love the Ford truck, I FEAR investing 60k in a diesel model. If we were talking about gasoline model I would buy a Ford in a heartbeat, or New York minut, whichever is faster, Its not the occasional problem with any of these trucks that I have a problem with, it the continued problems and product support that I have trouble with. I also think that there is a lot of abuse involved in some of these failures. The truck is just not for me and if asked that is what I will say to others. You dont have to defend the product against me. It does not need defending. It needs modification. Like I say, I feel that the ford failures are user induced in many cases, not all but in many. That v8 diesel is so powerful, i really feel that it can destroy itself when operated by someone that thinks a diesel is a hot rod. Industrial use by tow truck drivers where the vehicle has multiple users and operates 24 hours per day are another cause. Right now my 2013 RAM Cummins with 17500 has a service airfilter message displaying. First it is a 30K filter. When I first got the message, I changed the filter with an OEM filter even though it did not need a filter. Guess what? Yes, i still get the incessant bell and CEL and a message telling me to service the air filter. Its in for service right now. Now that is a disappointment to me.

This would not sway my decision one way or another, but, these are pics from my partner at work.

2013 6.7 with just over 5,000 miles.

Good thing with the Ford's and DMax's though, is you will never see a failed #9 or 10 cylinder

 

[mattpopp]

What did Dodge say to GM? I don't Recall....

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[mzcummins]

Job 1 6.7's have a known issue with valve breakage. I wish I had some pictures of the cummins when they use to blow the top off using ether.

All 3 as well as Volkswagon have problems with high pressure fuel and the fuel lubricity challenge.
The big difference is that dodge and gm are covering the very expensive repairs under warranty and for the most part ford has been denying warranty repairs.

I don't see how this is anyone else's fault but who is spraying the ether, the Cummins uses a grid heater on the intake plenum not glow plugs.

Yes Dodge has had some cp3 failures but nothing like Ford and GM are having with the cp4.

All though I'm not the biggest fan that Fiat owns Chrysler now you can't argue that they are doing well, they are growing and having record sales, they are producing higher quality vehicles and products that are turning heads.


I also wish people would stop saying Ford didn't take money, just Google "did ford take bailout money" and this is just a few that pop up




http://www.factcheck.org/2011/09/ford-motor-co-does-u-turn-on-bailouts/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannm...xpayers-money-the-answer-might-surprise-you/

 

[porthole]

I guess that is a thrown rod on a Ram Truck! Cool. Are they having problems with throwing piston rods?

Yeah it is.
When we were getting ready to leave work in the morning we were joking about how his diesel sounded like a diesel and mine sounded like a gasser. All seemed normal then, but was probably already in the self destruct mode. Only 20 minutes from home and by the time he got there it was making noise. He did what most people probably do when they hear a strange noise in the engine, started stepping on the pedal revving it up.

The pictures are the result of no load, in the driveway. At least he was already home.

Don't know if Ram's are having problems with rods or not. But the reality is, every engine type, gas or diesel probably has thrown a rod. I have had 4 connecting rod failures in my time. 1st was a B&S in my mini bike, next was a 60 series 2 stroke in a model airplane, next was the rod in my AMF 74 Sportster (that sucked, back then the warranty was 3months or 3K, mine had 4K) and the last was my 83 CJ. My 2005 Screamin Eagle motorcycle bent a valve at 10K

I think you misunderstand me. I love the Ford truck, I FEAR investing 60k in a diesel model. If we were talking about gasoline model I would buy a Ford in a heartbeat, or New York minut, whichever is faster, Its not the occasional problem with any of these trucks that I have a problem with, it the continued problems and product support that I have trouble with. I also think that there is a lot of abuse involved in some of these failures. The truck is just not for me and if asked that is what I will say to others. You dont have to defend the product against me. It does not need defending. It needs modification. Like I say, I feel that the ford failures are user induced in many cases, not all but in many. That v8 diesel is so powerful, i really feel that it can destroy itself when operated by someone that thinks a diesel is a hot rod. Industrial use by tow truck drivers where the vehicle has multiple users and operates 24 hours per day are another cause. Right now my 2013 RAM Cummins with 17500 has a service airfilter message displaying. First it is a 30K filter. When I first got the message, I changed the filter with an OEM filter even though it did not need a filter. Guess what? Yes, i still get the incessant bell and CEL and a message telling me to service the air filter. Its in for service right now. Now that is a disappointment to me.

Nope, don't misunderstand, you have been clear you like the Ford, just like the Ram for different reasons.

As I said in other posts, I am not a Ford or anything else fanboy. When I bought the current truck I started out looking at the GM's, since I was currently in one. And I was very happy with my DMax.

Believe it or not, one of the key factors that swayed me toward taking a chance on the new Ford was that DRW tail gate - bed rail height was a full 4" lower then any of the other trucks.

I also had followed the Scorpion engine since it was first mentioned, and believed then (as I do know) that the engine really was ready for prime time. Unlike the last 2 Ford diesels.
And although there are a lot of die hard 7.3 people out there, the reality is that the 7.3 was a dinosaur in the modern diesel world. A good performer, but just like the GM *-71 series, Cat 3208's and Cummins 904's, outdated, noisy, dirty etc.

I do like the technology that is in the 2011+ trucks, especially the hydraulic brake actuator. I do not like the fact that they are still way behind in adding an exhaust brake. I mis-correctly assumed that a secondary market brake would be available, either mechanical (true exhaust brake) or electronic (turbo vane control).

You mention tow trucks. Don't know about GM and Ram, but with Ford, when you order a C&C, cab & chassis, you actually get a de-rated engine programing. The engine produces significantly less horsepower and torque.
Who knows, you may be on to something with abuse. But for some reason Ford addressed that with 10% more power for the 2015 model - go figure.

And I might add, that my truck is the first vehicle I have had an extended warranty on since I left the automotive field in the 90's. I like it, but don't trust it completely.