DW_Gray
Well-known member
You could be correct. That's the reason I'd like to hear from a tech. As long as the kingpin weight does not cause the truck's GVWR to be exceeded, then the truck brakes are not being overtaxed.
Half-ton trucks towing 5th wheels?
- Thread starter DW_Gray
- Start date
You could be correct. That's the reason I'd like to hear from a tech. As long as the kingpin weight does not cause the truck's GVWR to be exceeded, then the truck brakes are not being overtaxed.
f150Screw
Member
I'm probably not going to b very popular on here but I have no problem towing with a 1/2 ton. My '14 Ecoboost did great. And before anyone says "but wait until u get into a situation", we were there, here r pics of our trip home from the dealership.
JohnD
Moved on to the next thing...
Your images are not showing up here yet for some reason . . .
But I can tell you from experience that there is NOTHING that will prepare you for that "$#!+, I'm not going to stop this rig!" moment until it is the actual moment that it is happening at this moment 'moment'!
Which, of course, is way too late . . .
In other words . . . that moment that your grandmother always warned you to wear clean underwear for!
Been there . . . done that . . . don't wish it on anyone . . . but if you let it happen to you, there is no one to blame but you!
End of story . . . no other explanation out of this at all . . . except that YOU are to blame!
f150Screw
Member
For some reason I'm having difficulty uploading any pics to this site, it took me a couple days just to b able to respond to the thread
JohnD, I'm not sure where u r trying to go with ur response. I'm to assume u mean that just because I tow with a half ton I won't be able to stop a trailer in an emergency, and if I had a "big diesel" I would? So using some math, If my 1/2 ton weighs 6000# and my 5'er has GVWR of 11700#, my trailer weight is about 195% that of my truck. Now if I have a "Big Diesel" that weighs 7500# and my trailer GVRW is say 16000#, my trailer weight would b about 213% that of my truck. Taking out all other variables, that would make the "Big Diesel" less safe, not more safe. I believe that's why we all should have properly functioning trailer brakes that when set properly, should b able stop the trailer. Proper setting should b so the truck brakes r stopping the weight of the truck and trailer brakes stop the trailer, in other words one set of brakes is NOT doing the work of both sets, if this were the case a semi tractor and trailer would b in a world of hurt. I wont even get into other variables like GVWR, payload, GAWR, GCVWR, all of which I'm under or at, not over. I've also have had a Commercial Drivers License for the last 25yrs, and have driven/pulled single/double trailers carrying Jet"A" helicopter fuel both on and off road conditions. My point is *** don't go jumping on the "holier than thou" wagon until u have some facts - Paul
JohnD, I'm not sure where u r trying to go with ur response. I'm to assume u mean that just because I tow with a half ton I won't be able to stop a trailer in an emergency, and if I had a "big diesel" I would? So using some math, If my 1/2 ton weighs 6000# and my 5'er has GVWR of 11700#, my trailer weight is about 195% that of my truck. Now if I have a "Big Diesel" that weighs 7500# and my trailer GVRW is say 16000#, my trailer weight would b about 213% that of my truck. Taking out all other variables, that would make the "Big Diesel" less safe, not more safe. I believe that's why we all should have properly functioning trailer brakes that when set properly, should b able stop the trailer. Proper setting should b so the truck brakes r stopping the weight of the truck and trailer brakes stop the trailer, in other words one set of brakes is NOT doing the work of both sets, if this were the case a semi tractor and trailer would b in a world of hurt. I wont even get into other variables like GVWR, payload, GAWR, GCVWR, all of which I'm under or at, not over. I've also have had a Commercial Drivers License for the last 25yrs, and have driven/pulled single/double trailers carrying Jet"A" helicopter fuel both on and off road conditions. My point is *** don't go jumping on the "holier than thou" wagon until u have some facts - Paul
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JohnD
Moved on to the next thing...
I don't believe I ever brought up anything about having a diesel . . .
I now have a 2500HD gasser myself . . .
I learned my lesson before anything bad happened . . .
I now have way more truck than I need for my trailer . . . which is the way it should be.
Not the other way around!
It is unfortunate that you have talked yourself into believing that you are above all of that . . .
I seriously hope that you don't put your family in jeopardy when you take your unsafe load out on the road . . .
And I hope that I, or anyone else on this forum, is nowhere near you when you are on the road with your rolling death trap!
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f150Screw
Member
My bad on jumping to the conclusion that u had a diesel, ya just don't see many 3/4 or bigger gassers any more. So have fun camping and good luck to u. Best wishes and safe travels! Paul
JWalker
Northeast Region Director-Retired
Hey Paul, On a different note, how do you like the Elkridge bunkhouse model? My brother is interested in upgrading from his travel trailer to a bunkhouse fifth wheel. The floor plan of the E30 would suit him perfectly. He has three kids and is looking for a little bit of separation. How do you like the outside kitchen? Do you have any pics of that? Thanks and enjoy your new trailer.
Jamie
f150Screw
Member
Hi Jamie, We haven't actually gotten to use it yet, just pulled it home 300+ miles. I've always had conventional TT and have to say this model is very well balanced, towed like a dream. The queen bedroom ceiling is shorter than most larger 5'ers, so if ur brother is taller than 5'8", he'll be ducking his head up there, but this also helps minimize wind drag. As far as the bunkhouse, we believe it's going to work out great for the grandkids to have their "own" space, there is also ample room to lay down an air matrass if his kids had friends that might tag along on occasion. I cant wait t use the outside kitchen because we primarily off-grid camp and do a lot of bbqing and washing of dishes outside using creek water. I'm looking at replacing the 120v fridge out there with a 12v cooler/fridge for our usage. So far haven't found any issues with this unit. Hope this helps. Paul
JanAndBill
Well-known member
I think you forgot from your driving days that to max out a tractor/trailer combination at 80,000#, you have 12,000# on the steer, 34,000# on the tandems, and 34,000# on the trailer tandems. On a combination vehicle, brakes work in conjunction with each other, not individually. That means the tractor brakes spread between 3 axles are rated and designed to stop 46,000# (Prior to 1975 most tractors didn't have front brakes) and 34,000# for the trailer. The same holds true for the 5th wheel you are pulling. It has brakes, but you are transferring weight through the king pin to your truck, meaning your truck brakes should be rated for the load incurred, to be able to stop safely. While a larger truck (gas or diesel) would have a higher curb weight, they are also rated at a higher GVW. Using your numbers 11750 for the trailer and the base curb weight for the truck at 5,300 before add ons, you're at 16750. The CGVW on a 2014 F150 is roughly 15,000#, so you're already overweight and still have to add people and fuel, luggage, etc. Again using your numbers approximately 2400# of trailer weight is being transferred to your truck through the king pin. The MAX cargo weight on that truck is 3000#, so by the time you add fuel and people, you're either at or over on cargo weight. I can only assume you have standard LT truck tires which are rated at roughly 1600# per tire x 4 gives a max load on the tires of 6400#, so at a GVW on the truck of 8,000# loaded, you're overloaded on the tires. Are you seeing the pattern here. This is why so many of us pull with a 3/4, 1 ton or even larger truck.
To the best of my knowledge, springs have always been designed for an equalized load. Air bags may compensate, but springs are limited to their load capacity. If a load shifts to one side, or the trailer leans significantly (as in an emergency maneuver) it can drastically overload one side and affect the steering of the truck. If you've ever pulled a van and had your load shift to one side you know what I'm talking about. Maxing the load capability of your truck allows no margin for sudden loading/unexpected load.
I've also had my CDL since it's inception 23 years ago, and prior to that the state I was in required a chauffeurs licence for many years. Not acting holier than thou just pointing out some facts you requested. How you use that information is up to you. You may never have a problem, and I hope you don't but the "potential" for disaster is always there.
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f150Screw
Member
Bill, thank you for answering with genuine facts, that is something I and most, if not all readers can respect. I had not forgotten about the weight distribution of a semi-combo, although admittedly your much more versed in the actual numbers. My point was basically the point that u touched on, being that all brakes need to work together to b at the maximum effectiveness. So no matter if its an F150, 250, 350 or a semi, if u lose ur trailer brakes, ur SOL, especially in an emergency situation. I agree that if u were to pull my 5er with an F350, it would b safer no doubt, my point (right or wrong) is if I'm at 98% of my tow ratings of my F150 and my neighbor is at 98% of his F350, he's no safer than I am (we're both idiots, lol). But I would bet that more than 50% of the informed RV'ers are in this category, I just didn't like being that dumb F150 guy when I have plenty of "neighbors" with big trucks, lol. In all seriousness, if I towed more than the 2, 3 or 4 times a year, had to pull through a big city with any frequency, deal with the other nutty drivers on the road that most of u guys have to...yes, I would probably have a larger truck. Here we have to worry about how long it will be before someone comes along and discovers that we've piled up our overloaded F150 and new house on wheels, jk. Have a great evening.... and drive safe. Paul.
f150Screw
Member
Hi again Bill, u were editing ur post while I was pecking out a response, hope u found it interesting and a bit humbled if not humorous. So here r my actual numbers, maybe u can show me the error of my ways, lol. My 5'er is 9000# empty, GVWR 11700#. MY F150 BVW 5730, GVWR 7700, CGVWR 17100, GAWR F/R 4050, Max Tire load 2535 @ 50# cold, max tow 11100#, So truck BCW 5730 + 5er gvwr 11700 = 17430 (330# over IF I load it to the max, probably not going there), if I reduce "my" 5'er gvwr by 700 lbs, I will be within my max tow and my cgvwr by 370#, two for two, lol. Now base cargo wt is 1970, with a 5er reduced to 11000# @ 15% pin weight =1650# (based on the recommended 15-25% pin wt), @ 20% = 2200, if I take care when loading this is achievable. Tire rating of 2535 x 4 = 10140, ok there. Unless I'm missing something, I should b ok for gawr as well, right? I will do a full scale reading when I'm loaded to b sure. I know this is MAX for my truck, but given the previous towing facts and maintaining a safe a proficient speed, I will be ok. Also my air bags r individually charged, so I have no "cross-over" of air, I've heard that can get pretty western in a hurry, lol. If u see something I've missed, please feel free to let me know. Thanks, Paul
JanAndBill
Well-known member
I would be the last to be critical of someone overloading a truck 
been there done that. However I've known prior to the event what I was doing and made an informed decision to do so. There are many out there that don't know the danger having been misled by RV salesmen, and even truck salesmen, and are unprepared to handle emergency situations. An overloaded vehicle does not in itself mean that an accident WILL occur, but the chances of it happening increase as the skills of the driver decrease.
I pulled up the full 2014 Ford Spec sheet, http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/2014/specifications/ without knowing the wheelbase, engine, towing pkg, etc. I can only assume some items. However on that year the MAXIMUM cargo capacity was 3120#, and most of the Eco Boost models were much less. The pin weight on your truck will run from 15-25% of the GVW of the trailer. I used 20% as an average which brings up 2350# cargo load. Working backward using your numbers, the only match I could find in the EB with 7700# GVW, showed your cargo capacity of 1840# which includes fuel and passengers. Adding in 700# for hitch, fuel, passengers and a little luggage, would put you at 3050# or 1200# over. That same model has an 11000# gross 5th wheel tow capacity, which you're 700# over there.The addition of air bags will offset the sag from the overload, but does not increase the capacity of the truck. On your tires, I forgot that they switched to the 17 and 20 inch rims which actually have a higher weight rating then the 16 inch models. I would suggest you use the link to the Ford specifications to carefully calculate the totals for "your specific model", to make an informed decision as to the suitability of the combination for your application.
Using my combination and numbers, I have a 5th wheel with a MFG GVWR of 14,000#. My 2006 F350 DRW 4x4 Crew Cab long bed with 4.10 rears and 6.0 diesel has a 16,700#, 5th wheel tow capacity, which puts me at 85% of capacity, leaving 15% reserve. Using a 20% factor, my pin weight would be 2800#. Adding in passengers, hitch, fuel, extra fuel, junk, (I carry a lot of extra) etc... I calculated a total cargo weight of 4000#. My model truck is rated at 5800#, so I'm at 69% of capacity. The base curb weight of my truck is 6615# plus cargo load 4000# is 10,615#. The GVWR of my truck is 13000#, so I'm at 82% of capacity there. With 6 tires on the ground I'm less than 75% of capacity running 75# of air. The Combined Vehicle Weight Max of my unit is 23500#. With a total CVW of 21815#, I'm at 93% of capacity. I would prefer a 10% margin but considering the other margins, it's still a stable, safe vehicle combination.
been there done that. However I've known prior to the event what I was doing and made an informed decision to do so. There are many out there that don't know the danger having been misled by RV salesmen, and even truck salesmen, and are unprepared to handle emergency situations. An overloaded vehicle does not in itself mean that an accident WILL occur, but the chances of it happening increase as the skills of the driver decrease.I pulled up the full 2014 Ford Spec sheet, http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/2014/specifications/ without knowing the wheelbase, engine, towing pkg, etc. I can only assume some items. However on that year the MAXIMUM cargo capacity was 3120#, and most of the Eco Boost models were much less. The pin weight on your truck will run from 15-25% of the GVW of the trailer. I used 20% as an average which brings up 2350# cargo load. Working backward using your numbers, the only match I could find in the EB with 7700# GVW, showed your cargo capacity of 1840# which includes fuel and passengers. Adding in 700# for hitch, fuel, passengers and a little luggage, would put you at 3050# or 1200# over. That same model has an 11000# gross 5th wheel tow capacity, which you're 700# over there.The addition of air bags will offset the sag from the overload, but does not increase the capacity of the truck. On your tires, I forgot that they switched to the 17 and 20 inch rims which actually have a higher weight rating then the 16 inch models. I would suggest you use the link to the Ford specifications to carefully calculate the totals for "your specific model", to make an informed decision as to the suitability of the combination for your application.
Using my combination and numbers, I have a 5th wheel with a MFG GVWR of 14,000#. My 2006 F350 DRW 4x4 Crew Cab long bed with 4.10 rears and 6.0 diesel has a 16,700#, 5th wheel tow capacity, which puts me at 85% of capacity, leaving 15% reserve. Using a 20% factor, my pin weight would be 2800#. Adding in passengers, hitch, fuel, extra fuel, junk, (I carry a lot of extra) etc... I calculated a total cargo weight of 4000#. My model truck is rated at 5800#, so I'm at 69% of capacity. The base curb weight of my truck is 6615# plus cargo load 4000# is 10,615#. The GVWR of my truck is 13000#, so I'm at 82% of capacity there. With 6 tires on the ground I'm less than 75% of capacity running 75# of air. The Combined Vehicle Weight Max of my unit is 23500#. With a total CVW of 21815#, I'm at 93% of capacity. I would prefer a 10% margin but considering the other margins, it's still a stable, safe vehicle combination.
f150Screw
Member
I would be the last to be critical of someone overloading a truck
I pulled up the full 2014 Ford Spec sheet, http://www.ford.com/trucks/f150/2014/specifications/ without knowing the wheelbase, engine, towing pkg, etc. I can only assume some items. However on that year the MAXIMUM cargo capacity was 3120#, and most of the Eco Boost models were much less. The pin weight on your truck will run from 15-25% of the GVW of the trailer. I used 20% as an average which brings up 2350# cargo load. Working backward using your numbers, the only match I could find in the EB with 7700# GVW, showed your cargo capacity of 1840# which includes fuel and passengers. Adding in 700# for hitch, fuel, passengers and a little luggage, would put you at 3050# or 1200# over. That same model has an 11000# gross 5th wheel tow capacity, which you're 700# over there.The addition of air bags will offset the sag from the overload, but does not increase the capacity of the truck. On your tires, I forgot that they switched to the 17 and 20 inch rims which actually have a higher weight rating then the 16 inch models. I would suggest you use the link to the Ford specifications to carefully calculate the totals for "your specific model", to make an informed decision as to the suitability of the combination for your application.
Using my combination and numbers, I have a 5th wheel with a MFG GVWR of 14,000#. My 2006 F350 DRW 4x4 Crew Cab long bed with 4.10 rears and 6.0 diesel has a 16,700#, 5th wheel tow capacity, which puts me at 85% of capacity, leaving 15% reserve. Using a 20% factor, my pin weight would be 2800#. Adding in passengers, hitch, fuel, extra fuel, junk, (I carry a lot of extra) etc... I calculated a total cargo weight of 4000#. My model truck is rated at 5800#, so I'm at 69% of capacity. The base curb weight of my truck is 6615# plus cargo load 4000# is 10,615#. The GVWR of my truck is 13000#, so I'm at 82% of capacity there. With 6 tires on the ground I'm less than 75% of capacity running 75# of air. The Combined Vehicle Weight Max of my unit is 23500#. With a total CVW of 21815#, I'm at 93% of capacity. I would prefer a 10% margin but considering the other margins, it's still a stable, safe vehicle combination.
Bill, all of my truck info is in my signature, but its a '14 F150 Screw, 3.5l Ecoboost, 157" wb, max tow (11,100), 3.73 gears, 7700 GVWR, 17,100 CGVWR, LT275/65R/18 Goodyear Wrangler AT/S rated @ 2535# @ 50psi. My original thought was to never Max my 5ers GVWR @ 11700 (Empty is 9000#). I figure 47gals water=390#, clothes and bedding=200#, dishes and kitchen=200#, food=300#, outdoor misc=200#, that's 1290# + EW 9000#= 10290. Of course this is an estimate and it will b interesting to see where it actually comes in at. We would like to travel more when we can get a bigger 5er and tow rig, but for now its closer to home with family. Safe travels - Paul
TravelTiger
Founding Texas-West Chapter Leaders-Retired
You can check your calculations at fifthwheetst.com. Get to a scale and check for sure. Your dry weight may not be accurate to begin with, is that the actual number on the inside of the door? They weigh the rig just before it exits the factory. The advertised dry weight is usually not accurate.
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Bohemian
Well-known member
Still, max payload on 2014 F150 over 4,000 lbs for the lightest model.
Now after shedding 700 lbs of body with the same frame/suspension and adopting standards max payload is 3,300 lbs.
There is not one 5th wheel that can safely be towed by an F150. Apparently safely, comfortably under good conditions, sure.
Now after shedding 700 lbs of body with the same frame/suspension and adopting standards max payload is 3,300 lbs.
There is not one 5th wheel that can safely be towed by an F150. Apparently safely, comfortably under good conditions, sure.
HornedToad
Well-known member
There may be a few???
My daughter has a 2014 F150 Supercrew (SCREW) 5.0L V8 that has a fifth wheel tow rating of 9,300 lbs. She would like to get a trailer this spring and I'm suggesting she consider a fiver instead of a bumper pull. The three I recommend... Prowler 22P or Elkridge e22 both @ 7,000 dry / 9,990 GVW or KZ has a small 265TH Toy Hauler that's 6,000 dry / 8,800 GVW.
She has seen the Elkridge and likes it, very nice finish with a large bath. I think she'll be OK with 2,000 lbs for cargo before it would break out of the trucks tow rating. I'm partial to toy haulers, so if I had an F150, I'd get the KZ.
My daughter has a 2014 F150 Supercrew (SCREW) 5.0L V8 that has a fifth wheel tow rating of 9,300 lbs. She would like to get a trailer this spring and I'm suggesting she consider a fiver instead of a bumper pull. The three I recommend... Prowler 22P or Elkridge e22 both @ 7,000 dry / 9,990 GVW or KZ has a small 265TH Toy Hauler that's 6,000 dry / 8,800 GVW.
She has seen the Elkridge and likes it, very nice finish with a large bath. I think she'll be OK with 2,000 lbs for cargo before it would break out of the trucks tow rating. I'm partial to toy haulers, so if I had an F150, I'd get the KZ.
JanAndBill
Well-known member
Except the cargo capacity on that truck is 1700#, which would put her over just on the pin weight, and you still have to add hitch, fuel and passengers, etc. Towing capacity is right at the limit of the truck's rating with no reserve, and maximum CGVWR is right at the limit. While the 5th wheel towing is more stable in most cases, overloading the truck would counteract some of that advantage. That truck has very close to the same CGVWR on a TT, and going to a TT would alleviate the overloading on the truck. Properly set up with one of the newer equalizer hitches, would probably give her a better towing experience.
HornedToad
Well-known member
Your right Bill, the 1400 pin weight on those Heartland trailers, would just leave enough room for a 200 lb hitch and a petite driver. She would probably need some gas, and if she took me along that would definitely put her way over the maximum payload.
Like most I just took the manufactures tow ratings at face value to figure what size trailer that truck could handle. I guess the real lesson to be learned from this thread is that there is a lot more to be considered.
I am going to disagree with you on one point. Based on my past experience having owned two bumper pulls & towing with a WD hitch... with the high winds in West Texas, I'd rather pull an fiver slightly overloaded than even a small bumper pull.
Like most I just took the manufactures tow ratings at face value to figure what size trailer that truck could handle. I guess the real lesson to be learned from this thread is that there is a lot more to be considered.
I am going to disagree with you on one point. Based on my past experience having owned two bumper pulls & towing with a WD hitch... with the high winds in West Texas, I'd rather pull an fiver slightly overloaded than even a small bumper pull.
DW_Gray
Well-known member
I recommend you tell your daughter about the web-based mobile friendly RV Tow Check app. It provides the most realistic tow capacity based on 20% kingpin weight. [Changed to 25% due to recent discovery.]
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danemayer
Well-known member
Interesting article just came out pertaining to this discussion.
