DW_Gray
Well-known member
Yes, Mark and I had some discussion about this upcoming article/blog last week. He has provided me some helpful guidance the past 4 years.
Half-ton trucks towing 5th wheels?
- Thread starter DW_Gray
- Start date
Yes, Mark and I had some discussion about this upcoming article/blog last week. He has provided me some helpful guidance the past 4 years.
DW_Gray
Well-known member
The only charts available showing 4X4s is last years. http://fifthwheelst.com/how_much_can_this_truck_tow_2014.html
I only prepared a limited number of 4X2s for each brand this year. I spent so many hours creating last years, I wasn't going to do that ever again. The point of the 2015 charts is if the listed truck can't tow it without exceeding the tow capacity, 4X4s and other fancy model trucks surely won't. Also, I'm providing adequate educational information and tools so that all can perform their own research for which all are responsible for anyway. It's not my responsibility to do the homework that others should be doing. Most just don't know how. Hopefully they'll trust the tools I've made available. What's interesting, RV Tow Check's development was created around what the manufactures have had in writing for years. Apparently, most never read their manuals.
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HornedToad
Well-known member
After crunching the F150 numbers in Tow Check, I am very disappointed my beloved blue oval would publish tow ratings that are not just slightly off, but dangerously different.
I punched these figures into FW St. when I bought my dually and there was a small difference. The manufacture FW tow ratings for the F150 are almost double Tow Check. Thanks DW.
I punched these figures into FW St. when I bought my dually and there was a small difference. The manufacture FW tow ratings for the F150 are almost double Tow Check. Thanks DW.
JanAndBill
Well-known member
I don't know if it's still as bad as it was, a few years ago, but RV manufacturer's and salespeople were very misleading as well with their "1/2 ton towable" marketing. Being professionals that are "supposed to be knowledgeable" in their field it would be hard to say they erroneously relied on truck manufacturer's data.
DW_Gray
Well-known member
I was just corresponding with one of my LinkedIn friends who was camping next to a big RV center. He was kind of livid that every pin box had a big sign displaying the dry weight. I tell you, it surely appears that as more people like Walter Canon, Mark Polk, myself, and many others are promoting safe towing, the RV industry is taking the opposite direction.
To me, I think it is negligence for a dealer to convince a prospective buyer that they'll probably only add 1,000 to 1,500 pounds above the dry weight. Based on RVSEF data, we know that's not true.
caissiel
Senior Member
Well said. I don't tow with a duelly because of the small front tires. With antilock brakes the front tires loose traction long before the rear and you are left going down the road.
Was explained that by a hotshot pulling 60 ft boats with a F350 SRW and 315 tires. He was setup to lay those boats in the water after delivery. He told me that Duellies never worked for him. He need the front traction.
As for braking disc brakes have zero advantage over drum brakes if not equipped with antilock system. Ever tried to stop a unit with the wheels locked. I know its like being on ice. My unit brakes are adjusted for not locking and at 65 mph I worry more for the drivers hitting in the rear then what I will hit up front.
Due to the distance of the brake lights from the truck I can travel over 60ft before they light up on the trailer. And disc brake systems have delay time build in that can cause delay in the brakes applied to the trailer.
I have pulled 5th wheels with 1/4 tons, 1/2 tons an 3/4 tons. Every setup was and is stable. I always found that if it can pull it it can easily stop with decent trailer brakes.
The HDTs have a big horn that if you hear it you better get out of the way. They need up to 3 times the space to stop.
And as for TT I always make sure they are heavy on the ball and tow them very carefully. No way I would tow anything heavier then the truck. All my experience has been properly loading forward and overloading the truck if required. Also more weight in the truck the better.
A friend had a GM 2500 towing a long ultralight trailer and he never loaded it and towed it almost empty to save on gas. He came around a corner and it tipped on its side. It broke the hitch and the truck stayed upright.
He got scared and bought a class C motor home with no living space.
When I see a light trailer in tow I always pass with care because they are dangerous and need to be loaded. So DO NOT SKIP THE LOADING BECAUSE IT CREATES A LOAD ON THE TV.
Was explained that by a hotshot pulling 60 ft boats with a F350 SRW and 315 tires. He was setup to lay those boats in the water after delivery. He told me that Duellies never worked for him. He need the front traction.
As for braking disc brakes have zero advantage over drum brakes if not equipped with antilock system. Ever tried to stop a unit with the wheels locked. I know its like being on ice. My unit brakes are adjusted for not locking and at 65 mph I worry more for the drivers hitting in the rear then what I will hit up front.
Due to the distance of the brake lights from the truck I can travel over 60ft before they light up on the trailer. And disc brake systems have delay time build in that can cause delay in the brakes applied to the trailer.
I have pulled 5th wheels with 1/4 tons, 1/2 tons an 3/4 tons. Every setup was and is stable. I always found that if it can pull it it can easily stop with decent trailer brakes.
The HDTs have a big horn that if you hear it you better get out of the way. They need up to 3 times the space to stop.
And as for TT I always make sure they are heavy on the ball and tow them very carefully. No way I would tow anything heavier then the truck. All my experience has been properly loading forward and overloading the truck if required. Also more weight in the truck the better.
A friend had a GM 2500 towing a long ultralight trailer and he never loaded it and towed it almost empty to save on gas. He came around a corner and it tipped on its side. It broke the hitch and the truck stayed upright.
He got scared and bought a class C motor home with no living space.
When I see a light trailer in tow I always pass with care because they are dangerous and need to be loaded. So DO NOT SKIP THE LOADING BECAUSE IT CREATES A LOAD ON THE TV.
Bohemian
Well-known member
Trailer Life said there were exactly three (3) half ton towables that, 1) needed to be towed empty with no water fresh or used, 2) towed by a 4000 lb payload F150 or equivalent. Since the F150 4,000 lb payload, let's be polite, no longer exists. That leaves NO 1/2 ton towable 5th wheels.
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JanAndBill
Well-known member
Also, I'm providing adequate educational information and tools so that all can perform their own research for which all are responsible for anyway. It's not my responsibility to do the homework that others should be doing.
Dave I think most people "want" to operate their rig safely. However there are a number of less then professional sales people, truck and RV, who will give them erroneous or misleading information, either because they don't know or they want to make the sale. Also, lets face it, you sometimes have to dig really deep into manufacturer's specs to get the information you need to make an informed decision. As you pointed out, there are so many options, models, drive configurations, etc on trucks out there, each with their own tow capacity.
With antilock brakes the front tires loose traction long before the rear and you are left going down the road.
Sorry but I have to disagree with your previous statements regarding single vs dual wheels. If you truck is set up properly (hitch location and load distribution) ideally you would have an equal load on each tire. Until you get up to air brakes, vehicles are designed to have a front to rear braking bias, meaning that when the vehicle decelerates, mass or load is transferred from the rear to the front. The amount of load transfer is determined by the height of the vehicle's center of gravity,the length of the wheelbase and the rate of deceleration. When a tire locks under braking, brake capacity is reduced and lateral capacity disappears. So when the front tires lock before the rears, steering control is is lost and the vehicle continues straight ahead, but the "under steer" is actually a stable condition from which steering control can be regained by reducing pedal pressure. "Antilock" serves to lessen the effect and allow the operator time to relieve pedal pressure. If however, the rear tires lock first, the result is an instantaneous "over steer" which causes the vehicle to want to spin. This is an unstable condition from which it is more difficult to recover, especially when entering a corner. Additionally modern ABS systems on vehicles serve to limit brake line pressure to rear wheels, much like the proportional valve did prior to ABS. Again to prevent rear wheels from locking up first.
Going from six wheels on the ground to four would increase the load on each tire by an equal amount spread over the four tires, not transfer all that weight just to the front. Those with some math skills could, I'm sure, determine if there was any gain in total vehicle traction by increasing the load per sq. in. on the tires versus decreasing the total area of rubber on the road. I would probably bet that it wouldn't be as good.
Dave I think most people "want" to operate their rig safely. However there are a number of less then professional sales people, truck and RV, who will give them erroneous or misleading information, either because they don't know or they want to make the sale. Also, lets face it, you sometimes have to dig really deep into manufacturer's specs to get the information you need to make an informed decision. As you pointed out, there are so many options, models, drive configurations, etc on trucks out there, each with their own tow capacity.
With antilock brakes the front tires loose traction long before the rear and you are left going down the road.
Sorry but I have to disagree with your previous statements regarding single vs dual wheels. If you truck is set up properly (hitch location and load distribution) ideally you would have an equal load on each tire. Until you get up to air brakes, vehicles are designed to have a front to rear braking bias, meaning that when the vehicle decelerates, mass or load is transferred from the rear to the front. The amount of load transfer is determined by the height of the vehicle's center of gravity,the length of the wheelbase and the rate of deceleration. When a tire locks under braking, brake capacity is reduced and lateral capacity disappears. So when the front tires lock before the rears, steering control is is lost and the vehicle continues straight ahead, but the "under steer" is actually a stable condition from which steering control can be regained by reducing pedal pressure. "Antilock" serves to lessen the effect and allow the operator time to relieve pedal pressure. If however, the rear tires lock first, the result is an instantaneous "over steer" which causes the vehicle to want to spin. This is an unstable condition from which it is more difficult to recover, especially when entering a corner. Additionally modern ABS systems on vehicles serve to limit brake line pressure to rear wheels, much like the proportional valve did prior to ABS. Again to prevent rear wheels from locking up first.
Going from six wheels on the ground to four would increase the load on each tire by an equal amount spread over the four tires, not transfer all that weight just to the front. Those with some math skills could, I'm sure, determine if there was any gain in total vehicle traction by increasing the load per sq. in. on the tires versus decreasing the total area of rubber on the road. I would probably bet that it wouldn't be as good.
HornedToad
Well-known member
I think this thread is similar to previous discussions about 3/4 ton trucks towing triple axle toy haulers.
Could they do it??? YES you see them going down the road every weekend.
Should they do it??? The numbers say NO.
I've decided after following this thread and punching my daughter's trucks numbers into the RV Tow Check app,
there is "NO 1/2 ton 5th wheel" under the 6000 lbs GVWR, that her F150 should be able to safely tow!!!
Dad is going to wise up and recommend she shop for a bumper pull.
DW_Gray
Well-known member
I agree that most RVers want to be safe. It's hard for many to know who to turn to. There are safety related websites (And I don't think any one website is any better than another. Just different approaches to basically the same answer.), and then there's hundreds of opinions going every direction on RV forums, etc. I've been working with one of those individuals this past week helping him sort out all the misinformation.
A few weeks ago, I had an appointment with a Chevy salesman and clearly he had no idea what he was doing. He showed me his Chevy app with tow ratings he uses to help customers, and then I showed him how using that could be misinformation for the buyer. He asked a lot of good questions. The truth is, I haven't met a salesperson yet that knew what they were doing. If they would actually sit down and study the owner's manual, they just might learn something. (Same goes for many owners too.) It's pretty bad when I can walk on just about any dealer's lot and tell them stuff they don't know about the truck they are selling.
And, BTW, RV Tow Check 2.0 may be released this week.
My latest saying:
DW_Gray
Well-known member
Well, there is this 19 foot Scamp with a single axle rated at 3500 pounds and the dry weight of 2200-2800 pounds. IMHO, why bother.
Bohemian
Well-known member
OK, it's technically a 5th wheel, but really. Why bother building a 5th wheel when it could more easily be a bumper pull trailer at less cost.
caissiel
Senior Member
Here is my point.
During a heavy rain me and my friend were traveling south on I95 north of Richmond VA. We were traveling following the traffic and he was behind me with his dodge duelly and trailer about 2000 lbs heavier then mine being pulled by my 1500 GM 4 x 4.
Well the traffic opened up in front of me and I saw a compact ford spinning around and hitting cars around him.
I put the brakes on and stopped about 10 feet from his driver door while he had the scariest look in his face that I have ever seen.
Then I observed my friend drive by my right side at almost full speed.
Well I proceeded on my way and stop at the next rest stop where my friend was still shaking from the experience. He told me that he saw my brake lights and he put the brakes on and all his wheels slid. The only choice was to take the brakes off and steer right. Lucky no one was on the right lane.
That 1/2 ton with a 7000 lbs trailer had the rear wheels loaded to the max and when applying the brakes the larger tires never lost traction. His unloaded rear tires and the wimpy front tires plus the heavier truck made it impossible for my friend to stop.
That's one of my close and successful close call. There are others and they all reacted the same. I am a converted SRW man. Loaded to the max front and rear.
And yes I recalled what the boat hauler had told me. It did make sense to me.
And No truck pulling a trailer can stop a trailer with no brakes without the front tires failing to keep traction. That's why trailer brakes need to be properly adjusted and draging trailer tires will never stop properly, that's an other story,
During a heavy rain me and my friend were traveling south on I95 north of Richmond VA. We were traveling following the traffic and he was behind me with his dodge duelly and trailer about 2000 lbs heavier then mine being pulled by my 1500 GM 4 x 4.
Well the traffic opened up in front of me and I saw a compact ford spinning around and hitting cars around him.
I put the brakes on and stopped about 10 feet from his driver door while he had the scariest look in his face that I have ever seen.
Then I observed my friend drive by my right side at almost full speed.
Well I proceeded on my way and stop at the next rest stop where my friend was still shaking from the experience. He told me that he saw my brake lights and he put the brakes on and all his wheels slid. The only choice was to take the brakes off and steer right. Lucky no one was on the right lane.
That 1/2 ton with a 7000 lbs trailer had the rear wheels loaded to the max and when applying the brakes the larger tires never lost traction. His unloaded rear tires and the wimpy front tires plus the heavier truck made it impossible for my friend to stop.
That's one of my close and successful close call. There are others and they all reacted the same. I am a converted SRW man. Loaded to the max front and rear.
And yes I recalled what the boat hauler had told me. It did make sense to me.
And No truck pulling a trailer can stop a trailer with no brakes without the front tires failing to keep traction. That's why trailer brakes need to be properly adjusted and draging trailer tires will never stop properly, that's an other story,
Bohemian
Well-known member
Gee, there are only about 10,000 variables that can affect what happened. That is why anecdotal evidence is useless and statistics and specifications are important. That is why we have specifications and they are useful. Because this kind of story is interesting, but useless.
I have been in both situations with the same tow vehicle (motorhome) towing the same car.
I have been in both situations with the same tow vehicle (motorhome) towing the same car.
JanAndBill
Well-known member
Caissel, thankfully no one was hurt in your story, but as the previous poster said there are to many unknowns to make a valid comparison. Weight, speed, visibility, reaction times, driver skills, etc. are just a few of the things that could affect the outcome of your story. Even a difference in tire pattern can contribute to the difference in stopping distance and hydroplaning.
Grey Ghost
Well-known member
I have always been told power to pull the 5ver isn't the most important question, but stopping the 5ver is, so I pull with a Ford F-250 and my unit only weighs in at about 9400lbs dry. I can pull it and safely stop it and that makes me feel a bit safer. I too have seen little 1/2 ton pickups pulling 40' rigs around and it is scary to me. They could never stop in an emergency situation. I've seen 5ver accidents and they are not pretty, just pray I'm never in one!! If you are concidering RVing then do it safely please, if not for yourself do it for the rest of us out there. Have fun out there, enjoy and be safe!
