Installing: larger Inverter. Need:coach-specific wiring diagram to find routes of main and sub panels.

[rsg1963]

Hi all, I have contacted Heartland directly on this with no luck. 8 emails back and forth until the guy gave up trying to help. Coach is a Bighorn 3760 EL
Here is what I am looking for:

1. Where the main line feeding the sub panel is routed, so I can send inverter power there. (Which will then power everything in the coach, currently only powering the refer).
2. Where the main 50a service is routed so I can send that to the inverter for switching. (So the inverter can determine battery or shore power).

Here is a cut and paste of one of my emails to them:

Current setup from Heartland Factory:
Small Magnum inverter goes to Magnum transfer switch which takes shore power and inverter power and feeds to single line for the residential refer.

New setup:
Large Magnum MS2812 inverter with internal switch, eliminating need for external switch.

Per Magnum: I need to feed the new inverter with the 50a shore line power from (after) the main panel. Then I will wire-in the batteries to the inverter. The output will feed the entire sub panel which will enable me to run the entire coach off the batteries, not just the refer. Of course I would never run everything at once, but I do not want only ‘this’ or ‘that’ options.

So what I need is to know where I can find a main panel output line that normally feeds the subpanel, so I can redirect these wires to the inverter, THEN send it to the sub panel.
Perhaps a schematic or diagram of how you guys wired the coach in these areas?

So simple, but Heartland first sent me a schematic for a simple inverter install which I could have pulled off the internet in 2 seconds, nothing to do with coach power runs.
Then they sent me a wiring diagram for all the outlets, lights, etc...nothing on the main or sub panel. Then they gave up.

Sure hope someone can advise, my project is on hold for this basic info. Thank you!!!

Ron

 

[danemayer]

Hi rsg1963,

Heartland doesn't typically provide assistance for owners to modify their coaches and as far as I know has never published or provided engineering drawings of the wiring.

I'm not sure why you would need a wiring diagram. The 120V wiring is pretty straightforward. Shore power is wired directly to the back of your main circuit breaker panel unless you have generator prep, in which case it goes through an automatic transfer switch before getting to the breaker panel.

There is no sub-panel unless you or someone before you installed one as an aftermarket modification. My interpretation of the Magnum approach is that you need to take selected breakers out of the main panel and install them in the new subpanel. Add an appropriate breaker to the main panel to feed power to the sub-panel. The batteries would also provide power to the sub-panel. When shore power is removed, the Magnum device would switch over to it's inverter output, drawing from the batteries to power the breakers in the sub-panel.

The factory installed inverter and transfer switch that are dedicated to the residential refrigerator are not tied into the main 120V wiring, except that the refrigerator's transfer switch does get power from one of the circuit breakers in the main panel. If you're planning on moving that breaker to a sub-panel so there's only one inverter, you probably want to remove the factory inverter and transfer switch from the circuit and power the refrigerator from your new sub-panel, allowing the Magnum device to take over the inverter and switch functions.

If you want to better understand the power flow to the residential refrigerator, there's an illustration in the Residential Refrigerator Guide that's based on a Landmark setup. Your setup is probably very similar. By the way, that illustration was created by examining the Landmark components and wiring.

 

[Realist]

I'm no genius but I think that if I cannot identify a large black cable, for safety's sake I probably should not attempt to modify it.
Realist

 

[rsg1963]

Thank you Dan for the rapid response!!!!
I will reply item by item for simplification below.

Hi rsg1963,

Heartland doesn't typically provide assistance for owners to modify their coaches and as far as I know has never published or provided engineering drawings of the wiring. <<This must be lawyer-driven but really stinks for DIY folks trying to save a few bucks and have the satisfaction of a DIY project completed. Going to an RV service center for something so simple is what I wanted to avoid.

I'm not sure why you would need a wiring diagram. The 120V wiring is pretty straightforward. Shore power is wired directly to the back of your main circuit breaker panel unless you have generator prep, in which case it goes through an automatic transfer switch before getting to the breaker panel. <<The location of where that power leaves the main panel and goes to the sub panel is what I do not know. My understanding from Heartland is the panel at the bottom of my utility closet with all the breakers is the sub-panel. See, I can't even get straight answer on these simple items from Heartland. Slightly frustrating.

There is no sub-panel unless you or someone before you installed one as an aftermarket modification. My interpretation of the Magnum approach is that you need to take selected breakers out of the main panel and install them in the new subpanel. Add an appropriate breaker to the main panel to feed power to the sub-panel. The batteries would also provide power to the sub-panel. When shore power is removed, the Magnum device would switch over to it's inverter output, drawing from the batteries to power the breakers in the sub-panel. <<Magnum made it simple. Route all power from main panel to inverter, route battery power to inverter. Route inverter-out power to sub panel which will power entire coach. They never mentioned moving breakers. If there is no sub-panel as you say, then the power-out would go to wherever all the lines in the coach are fed from.

The factory installed inverter and transfer switch that are dedicated to the residential refrigerator are not tied into the main 120V wiring, except that the refrigerator's transfer switch does get power from one of the circuit breakers in the main panel. If you're planning on moving that breaker to a sub-panel so there's only one inverter, you probably want to remove the factory inverter and transfer switch from the circuit and power the refrigerator from your new sub-panel, allowing the Magnum device to take over the inverter and switch functions.<< I most definitely will remove the old inverter and external switch.

If you want to better understand the power flow to the residential refrigerator, there's an illustration in the Residential Refrigerator Guide that's based on a Landmark setup. Your setup is probably very similar. By the way, that illustration was created by examining the Landmark components and wiring.<<Page 11 is perfect for the layout, but still does not tell me physically WHERE to find the main lines. I can pull open the breaker panel but where does the line feeding it route in the coach? Does it pass near the basement or gen compartment?

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I'm no genius but I think that if I cannot identify a large black cable, for safety's sake I probably should not attempt to modify it.
Realist

If you better understood what I am looking for and what I have already done to this coach, you may not have made that comment, but better to speak first, think second, eh?

 

[Jesstruckn/Jesstalkn]

Ron I'm not sure if your big horn is the same as my Landmark. But everything I needed was right behind the basement wall. We did the Go-power 320W system Solar and inverter Kit. "Love It"
I'm just over the hill from you here in Manteca if you want to take a look.

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Ron I'm not sure if your big horn is the same as my Landmark. But everything I needed was right behind the basement wall. We did the Go-power 320W system Solar and inverter Kit. "Love It"
I'm just over the hill from you here in Manteca if you want to take a look.

FYI; I can run everything except A/C's on the inverter like your wanting to do. You will love it.

 

[rsg1963]

Ron I'm not sure if your big horn is the same as my Landmark. But everything I needed was right behind the basement wall. We did the Go-power 320W system Solar and inverter Kit. "Love It"
I'm just over the hill from you here in Manteca if you want to take a look.

Now that is excellent! THANK YOU. I will start tearing down walls immediately
LOL.
We are in Dublin and I really appreciate the offer to visit. Depending on what I find, I may take you up on it. Thanks again!!!

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FYI; I can run everything except A/C's on the inverter like your wanting to do. You will love it.

Agreed!!!
We had everything running off our inverter on our Jayco toy-hauler previously, so that's where we became spoiled. That setup was easy for me, perhaps because their lines were easy to find? But now I have renewed hope thanks to some of the replies here this morning.

 

[Jesstruckn/Jesstalkn]

Go power kit comes with a 30amp transfer switch I had to replace it with a 50amp and installed it right next to the current 50amp transfer switch that was already in the the coach. I had my dealer do all of the install at the time
#1) just to make sure that if something were to happen down the road the dealer or warranty couldn't say it was my fault.
#2) at the time of the perches of our Landmark I didn't know this forum existed and wasn't sure what I was doing on my own.
But now with all my new friends/family we can do ANYTHING.

 

[Jesstruckn/Jesstalkn]

Go power kit comes with a 30amp transfer switch I had to replace it with a 50amp and installed it right next to the current 50amp transfer switch that was already in the the coach. I had my dealer do all of the install at the time
#1) just to make sure that if something were to happen down the road the dealer or warranty couldn't say it was my fault.
#2) at the time of the perches of our Landmark I didn't know this forum existed and wasn't sure what I was doing on my own.
But now with all my new friends/family we can do ANYTHING.

Some of the pictures of my system are on my (Project LM365) thread.
#59) https://heartlandowners.org/showthread.php/54076-Project-LM-365?p=441123&viewfull=1#post441123
#61) https://heartlandowners.org/showthread.php/54076-Project-LM-365?p=441200&viewfull=1#post441200
I also have more pictures in my phone

 

[rsg1963]

Go power kit comes with a 30amp transfer switch I had to replace it with a 50amp and installed it right next to the current 50amp transfer switch that was already in the the coach. I had my dealer do all of the install at the time
#1) just to make sure that if something were to happen down the road the dealer or warranty couldn't say it was my fault.
#2) at the time of the perches of our Landmark I didn't know this forum existed and wasn't sure what I was doing on my own.
But now with all my new friends/family we can do ANYTHING.

Hahahahahaha, so true.
I'm not worried about our warranty. To be honest I have no faith in it anyway. We tried for 4 months to get some simple things fixed by the dealership working with Heartland and they fixed about 50% of the as-delivered issues. 4 months they had our brand-new coach and only half the items fixed due to Heartland dragging their feet or denying claims. I had to mentally accept that I have no support and it's an as-is deal now. They wore me down. But on a happy note we mostly love our trailer!

 

[TravelTiger]

4 months they had our brand-new coach and only half the items fixed due to Heartland dragging their feet or denying claims. I had to mentally accept that I have no support and it's an as-is deal now. They wore me down. But on a happy note we mostly love our trailer!

Not to hyjack the thread, but sounds like a poor dealer, not Heartland. I have already contacted Heartland about a few issues on our new coach, and had terrific response from them. In fact, they confirmed that the dealer, who said they ordered a new cooktop during our walkthrough on the 29th, had indeed NOT ordered it yet, (Feb 8) even though Heartland OK'd the replacement January 27th.

 

[carl.swoyer]

I'm not sure you need 50 amp . I added a30 breaker on my panel. That line went to my ms2812 as power in. This line allow s the Magnum to sense and toggle power. I however did not see the need to power the entire rig. I choose two lines that feed my outlets front and rear. TV coffee pot outlets in the bedroom. If you power the whole rig you will quickly run your battery bank down. You definitely don't want to try and run your ac .

Carl & Christine, 2012 Landmark Rushmore, 2005 Silverado crew cab lt 8 foot bed 6.6 lly /Allison -custom dual exhaust-198000 miles !

 

[danemayer]

Your LM365 has a Precision Circuits Power Control System integrated into the main circuit breaker panel. We have some manuals on the PCS system that may be relevant to your project. Here's a link. Some of the electrical loads and circuit breakers are integrated into the Power Control System so it can shed loads when necessary. You should consider this before rearranging circuit breakers or wiring.

If you have the generator prep/50 amp transfer switch, you can get to it by taking down the rear wall of the pass through storage area. That would be where shore power connects.

 

[sjandbj]

1. Where the main line feeding the sub panel is routed, so I can send inverter power there. (Which will then power everything in the coach, currently only powering the refer)
2. Where the main 50a service is routed so I can send that to the inverter for switching. (So the inverter can determine battery or shore power).

Ron

I just installed a Magnum Hybrid 3012 inverter. I was looking at the 2812 but went with the 3012. I had to install my own sub panel since there is no sub panel installed from the factory. The main panel as Dan pointed out gets its power directly from the shore power or the transfer switch. The wires run under the belly of the couch and up behind the basement wall with all the other water lines and such. I installed another breaker panel in my Big Country right next to the original breaker panel. This made moving the circuits to the sub panel easier for me. You cannot move all the breakers to the sub panel since the 2812 only allows only 30 amps on each leg and the shore power is 50 amps on each leg. I personally moved all the 110 plugs and microwave to the sub panel. My 3012 inverter allows 60 amps one a single leg to be used as a pass thru and since the main panel maximum is 50 amps per leg this limited me to 50 amps to send to the sub panel. I would suggest that you draw out the wiring so it will give you a better picture of what legs are powering what breakers. It is important to keep them balanced if possible. The trailer wiring is not rocket science, but you must make sure nothing gets crossed and that all connections, especially the neutral wire, are tight. A lose or miss wired neutral can cause you to have a very bad day.

Regards,
Steve

 

[Realist]

If you better understood what I am looking for and what I have already done to this coach, you may not have made that comment, but better to speak first, think second, eh?

I would like to explain my comment.
Eons ago I knew a guy that made some electrical mods on his popup camper. Don't remember what he was doing, but what I do remember is that he wound up creating a hot skin. His daughter lost her life because of it. When ever I hear of someone doing electrical mods on their coach I think of her.
So I did think first, of her, then spoke second.
R.

 

[rsg1963]

I'm not sure you need 50 amp . I added a30 breaker on my panel. That line went to my ms2812 as power in. This line allow s the Magnum to sense and toggle power. I however did not see the need to power the entire rig. I choose two line the feed my outlets front and rear. TV coffee pot outlets in the bedroom. If you power the whole rig you will quickly run your battery bank down. You definitely don't want to try and run your ac .

Carl & Christine, 2012 Landmark Rushmore, 2005 Silverado crew cab lt 8 foot bed 6.6 lly /Allison -custom dual exhaust-198000 miles !

Great setup and thank you for sharing! I'd love to see how you did it. As I mentioned earlier I never intend to use everything in the rig at once, but I do not want to be limited on what works and when. We also have the Magnum 2812 and 4 L-16 Trojans in series and parallel for 870 amp hours total. (960 watts of solar coming next year) In addition I replaced every non-LED with LED bulbs and added a in-line water pump expansion tank to mitigate drain from an over cycling pump.

 

[rsg1963]

Not to hyjack the thread, but sounds like a poor dealer, not Heartland. I have already contacted Heartland about a few issues on our new coach, and had terrific response from them. In fact, they confirmed that the dealer, who said they ordered a new cooktop during our walkthrough on the 29th, had indeed NOT ordered it yet, (Feb 8) even though Heartland OK'd the replacement January 27th.

Begin rambling:
Erika you are definitely partially correct. LOL And I can totally picture our dealer doing that. However Heartland did deny a few claims and delayed approvals for weeks while they 'researched'. As it stands we have a main slide with the bottom foot trim falling off because Heartland did not agree it was possible, a factory rear lamp by the couch is a blem and unrepairable but still has not been approved for replacement, and drawers that they told the dealer to install 'catches' instead of correctly fixing the problem, which they did and the drawers still opened. Side note: Today I replaced every single slide hardware with easy-close hardware. These slides not only allow the drawer to close gently but their release, or opening tension, is far greater and after a test run not a single drawer was open. Personal cost: $165. <<<On a 2016 coach...grrrrrr.
While installing the hardware I honestly laughed to myself as I remembered the salesman telling me about the "Amish" cabinet making awesomeness. It's not awesome. Not horrible, but not awesome at all.

 

[TravelTiger]

Begin rambling:
Erika you are definitely partially correct. LOL And I can totally picture our dealer doing that. However Heartland did deny a few claims and delayed approvals for weeks while they 'researched'. As it stands we have a main slide with the bottom foot trim falling off because Heartland did not agree it was possible, a factory rear lamp by the couch is a blem and unrepairable but still has not been approved for replacement, and drawers that they told the dealer to install 'catches' instead of correctly fixing the problem, which they did and the drawers still opened. Side note: Today I replaced every single slide hardware with easy-close hardware. These slides not only allow the drawer to close gently but their release, or opening tension, is far greater and after a test run not a single drawer was open. Personal cost: $165. <<<On a 2016 coach...grrrrrr.
While installing the hardware I honestly laughed to myself as I remembered the salesman telling me about the "Amish" cabinet making awesomeness. It's not awesome. Not horrible, but not awesome at all.

I'm not giving a pass to HL, we've discovered some questionable craftsmanship too.

What we've found on our previous coaches is that if it failed or didn't do the job to our satisfaction, we replaced with something better and we're happy with the end result -- a better RVing experience. Sounds like you did similar with the soft-catch, enjoy!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rsg1963]

I just installed a Magnum Hybrid 3012 inverter. I was looking at the 2812 but went with the 3012. I had to install my own sub panel since there is no sub panel installed from the factory. The main panel as Dan pointed out gets its power directly from the shore power or the transfer switch. The wires run under the belly of the couch and up behind the basement wall with all the other water lines and such. I installed another breaker panel in my Big Country right next to the original breaker panel. This made moving the circuits to the sub panel easier for me. You cannot move all the breakers to the sub panel since the 2812 only allows only 30 amps on each leg and the shore power is 50 amps on each leg. I personally moved all the 110 plugs and microwave to the sub panel. My 3012 inverter allows 60 amps one a single leg to be used as a pass thru and since the main panel maximum is 50 amps per leg this limited me to 50 amps to send to the sub panel. I would suggest that you draw out the wiring so it will give you a better picture of what legs are powering what breakers. It is important to keep them balanced if possible. The trailer wiring is not rocket science, but you must make sure nothing gets crossed and that all connections, especially the neutral wire, are tight. A lose or miss wired neutral can cause you to have a very bad day.

Regards,
Steve

Thank you Steve for taking the time to share this info. It's right up the ally of what I needed to know. All 110 plugs and microwave would suffice as the only thing left is the AC units and I would never run those off the batteries.
I understand the importance of the Neutral ground and after all the input from this forum, I have a much better picture of how to proceed. I will indeed map it all out and triple check everything. I can't wait to start using my hydraulic crimper again, it's been years since I worked with 4/0 cabling (old Jayco was my last reason to use it). Thanks again.

 

[avvidclif]

It's kinda like buying a Cadillac for the quality and finding out they used Chev(GM) parts. GRIN

 

[rsg1963]

It's kinda like buying a Cadillac for the quality and finding out they used Chev(GM) parts. GRIN

Nailed it! ^^^^