Landmark chugging while towing

[PnM]

We just purchased a 2014 Heartland Landmark Savannah from a dealer in Knoxville,Tn on 7/10/14 We pulled it back to Iowa and experienced a significant amount of chugging through the duration of the 14 hr trip. Chugging to the point of lampshades on the floor, sound bar dangling, pantry shelf broke off of supports, towel hooks loosened and almost off. We were unable to take a drink of water or soda due to the jerking motion. It was uncomfortable driving or chatting throughout the trip. What a disappointment. After over 1 yr of researching various makes of fifth wheels we thought the suspension and shocks would preform much better than this. Where do we go from here? This is our FT home and we are planning on traveling the US coast to coast . I can't imagine doing this now with such a rough, chugging ride. Please advise as to what we, or Heartland needs to do to make this right. We will anxiously await instruction from Heartland as to what can be done to resolve this very disappointing issue with the shocks.

Sincerely, Michele

 

[cookie]

Hello Michele and welcome to the forum. A great place for helping others.It sounds like your are experiencing chucking.It doesn't have as much to do with the trailer shocks as it does a combination of other factors.Some rigs even come without shocks and some owners have removed them.Some might be, truck wheelbase, position of hitch location, pin box or truck suspension.One cure that is very common is the use of an air bag pin box such as Trail Air Tri Glide, 5th Airborn or others.There are also air bag hitches.Airbags on your tow vehicle can sometimes be helpful.Others will chime in with an overview of what they have done to cure that issue.PeaceDave

 

[danemayer]

It would be helpful to know some details about your tow vehicle and your hitch.

 

[travlingman]

We have a 2014 Savannah and have not experienced this on ours. What kind of truck are you pulling with and what type and size of hitch? When hooked up is the trailer close to level or is the nose of it high or low?

 

[PnM]

I am

 

[PnM]

It is a Mor-Ryde hitch. I'm pulling with a Ford F 350 , 6.7 , dually. No air bags on the truck.

Thanks, Michele

 

[Jim.Allison]

What a nightmare. What you describe is beyond chucking. All I can say is my Big Country only does something very remotely similar to this when I get into a harmonic such as that you might find on an interstate hwy where they have concrete sections. The length of the expansion joints and your speed can set up a harmonic lope similar to chucking but distinctly different, its a soft lope. A speed adjustment seems to cure it right away. I have a Hensley BD3 Trailer Saver and experience virtually no actual chucking on any road. Sometimes I forget that I'm towing. You can read about my rig below.

First, your truck is a heavy truck with a stiff suspension, you do not appear to have a Hensley Trailer Saver. Which takes up the shock from bad road through your very capable but stiff suspension. If that is what is hammering your trailer then you found your solution. I like the hensley cause I buy it once and its mine, I don't lose it when I trade my rig. A shock absorbing pin box is destined to be taken from you because it might not fit your next rig. A Hensley stays with you forever. I think it is the most effective device on the market among some good competition.

If this is not the hammering that you are talking about then you have something different than what most have experienced.

Tell us more about the truck, year, cab, bed, miles on truck, transmission, recent work on the truck and details about the hitch. Where did the hitch come from, new used. who installed the mounting hardware in your truck, did you buy it like that?

I dont want to insult you but I don't know what or how much you know about the things I'm going to pitch out there. If you are a good wrench just browse them for ideas. I would start looking at:

(caution here come the rabid dogs, prepare for elimination of a lot of the following) Everyone feel free to pile on this Dr. House method of diagnosis!!!!!!

My first two inclinations: Bad tires, out of round!!!!!!! Or trailer brakes are adjusted too tight. When they get hot they expand and start grabbing.

Diesel motor problems. The Ford Diesel will bounce the truck off the road when the motor starts to fail. The question is have you ever experienced a truck problem that involves the truck shaking prior to or after this incident?

Truck brakes on a large truck like yours can get hot and start grabbing also, did you have recent brake work done?

Emergency brake disengaged?

Short in breakaway box!!!!!!!

Does your truck suspension need maintenance of any kind? Shocks maybe front or back? Shackles? Lube?

Did you notice any burning smells?

Automatic or clutch driven, bad clutch maybe?

Is your hitch and hardware installed exactly to the manufacturers specifications?

Is there something missing such as an shock or airbag on your pin box?

Is your pin box loose?

Is your hardware fully secure where it ties into your truck frame?

Is the hardware torqued to specs, pin box or hitch mounts? There is a lot going on with that hitch, it has to be solid as a rock. The torque specs are to be followed, to much torque and something is broke, to little and its not secure.

Did your hitch installer leave out any parts under the truck?

Is your king pin correctly installed and torqued.

Is your hitch in working order, is your kingpin captured properly?

Do you have a slider hitch?

Are your U-joints in good condition?

Could you have a worn carriage bearing on the drive line?

Your drive shaft could be loading and unloading.

Diff problem?

Something you notice about the truck that is not quite right but you never thought it was something to worry about? Such as a drive shaft that "dings like a bell" when you take it out of park and put in gear?

Broken motor mount?

Then to the trailer axles are they as they should be? No broken springs or shackles? Are the shocks intact (functioning should not be an issue)? if they are not intact then that could be an indicator of damage, you need to know what the source of the damage is. I agree about trailer shock not really being necessary, but if they are damaged you need to know why.

Could you have a short in your brake actuator in the truck or something that is actuating your brakes? My brake actuator is selectable in the RAM EVIC center. Can you select different settings for different trailers such as heavy and light trailers? Mine is set on heavy and I run a 10 (i need help on this one guys cause i can never figure this one out).

Perhaps you are aft loaded or forward loaded in the trailer.

If your pin is not in the proper location you will be aft or forward loaded on the truck. This can be a problem, If the hitch is aft or forward on the truck, then problems are prominent.

I doubt if it is the brand new trailer itself. If it is the trailer then I would think you have a serious problem with either the axles or the frame or the pin box being loose. Perhaps the brakes are engaging, or the tires out of round.

Do you have a kingpin to gooseneck adaptor or some such device?

You said Moreride. Fifth wheel hitch or pin box or both?

Your hitch bracket is a what? universal, OEM Ford, aftermarket vehicle specific?

When all this was going on, was it here and there or was it everywhere? How soon after you took delivery did it start. 5 minuts? 1 hour? 200 miles? when did it start?

Did you notice swaying or difficulty in steering? was the trailer driving you ?

Just an Idea, if you have a friend with a truck that could take it for a ride, that way you could isolate the truck or trailer as the problem. When you do this test, first take it for a ride with your truck, on a stretch of road, get the same effect you told us about. Then get your friends truck and drive it the same exact way on the same route then see what the results are. If his truck does not duplicate the effect, THEN get your truck and tow his trailer. IF it shows there then you know exactly where to look.

Let me finish with this. When I was looking at rigs, A salesperson showed me one that was in the condition that you are talking about. Broken shades on the floor, everything messed up, counter top on the floor, shower door out of the track. The sales person was a shocked as I was. I shined on, but I could not imagine what caused that. Your post reminds me of that rig.

It is a Mor-Ryde hitch. I'm pulling with a Ford F 350 , 6.7 , dually. No air bags on the truck.

Thanks, Michele

 

[jbeletti]

Consider calling Butch back at your dealership and get his ideas as he knows what you have for a truck, hitch, pinbox and RV. He may have some ideas.

If you have Correct Track on the RV, I suggest you have it aligned if you have not already done so, now that the RV is loaded.

I'd also suggest you call Mor/ryde to discuss with them. It's possible that you have a spring with too high a spring rate in it. Those can be easily changed in the pinbox.

 

[dbbls59]

Chucking as you described is usually a result of too little pin weight. You mentioned that you just purchased the unit, do you have it loaded with your personal items? This will add pin weight. Try moving some weight to the front of the trailer and see if this stops the chucking.

 

[Greengas]

Just a thought. I don't have a solution to offer, just a way to narrow down the possible problem.

The rv made it from the factory to Knoxville and if the problem existed then the dealer would have seen the same issues as the owner saw after she got it home. So using deductive reasoning I am going to say there was no severe chucking problem on the drive down. So what was different on the drive home? . The tow vehicle and the hitch. Again let's figure if there was a problem with the truck it would have shown up earlier so what's left, the hitch. That is where I would start my search. Yes, it could still be the truck with the problem only showing up when the truck is under a load but that takes a lot more work to figure out so again let's start with the more simple part of the package, the hitch.

Now two questions we don't have answers to are, is this the owners first 5th wheel? and is the hitch new or did she use it with a previous rig? . The answers to these two questions fill in some important blanks.

Armed with the missing information the review of the hitch set up can begin. In his post, Jim provided lots of great troubleshooting ideas on how to address the hitch. We are not sure what background the owner has in tackling such a problem. But based on the the original post I am guessing she is like most of us, not a mechanic. She will need professional assistance in finding and fixing the issue.

Michele I am so sorry you are going through this. I understand the first reaction is to lash out at the most obvious target, Heartland and in the end it might in deed be their problem to fix. But my recommendation is to go step by step. Start with the most likely problem, the hitch and go from there.

Again, I'm not offering a solution, just a way to look at the problem to help you start trying to figure out what's wrong. Please keep posting updates to this forum because your experience might help someone in the future.

 

[Jim.Allison]

Sorry for the shotgun approach, I should have identified my audience first.

That rig has a 3000 lb plus pin weight, and is 40 foot long. A new trailer not outfitted with the sundry items in the basement and lacking or including a few options could easily become aft loaded. We know aft loading on purpose to offset heavy pin loading is cautioned against. Aft loading on accident has to be even worse. This is a serious consideration for many reasons.

Reviewing this whole thread this morning. I'm thinking a little different.

Their truck is one heck of a truck, fully capable of carrying the load, the suspension has got to be a good one on that truck, a firm ride to say the least (notwithstanding any major problems). I'm wondering if they are not experiencing direct road surface shock transferred through the hitch, then pin box and into the trailer. Thus causing the damage to the fiver........ Then the secondary problem, "chucking," is normal even considering the Mor-Ryde (possibly exacerbated by a hitch or pin box problem.)

The perception of chucking is important. Even with the Hensley, my wife wants to stop and get out at the first sign of chucking. Her perception is different than mine. I'm not effected. But it is dadgum hard to take a drink of water as PnM described. That is with a Hensley employed, I can only imagine what that would feel like with a direct connection ( Mor-Ryde not considered).

No matter the cause, a Hensley type hitch is just downright necessary in my opinion perhaps the use of both the Mor-Ryde and Hensley combo could provide the ride they seek. I have read on HOF that some have used both the Hensley and the Mor-Ryde as a combo.

I provided a link that illustrates what is going on between the truck and fiver when traveling at highway speeds. Keep in mind the guy who made this video being as dramatic as possible. This is not a Hensley but is a similar product. If not for this hitch all that energy would be going somewhere into the truck and fiver. This energy if not faded has to be abusive to the hitch hardware, truck, and trailer fixtures.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o79pX5nyrFE

 

[MTPockets]

It is a Mor-Ryde hitch. I'm pulling with a Ford F 350 , 6.7 , dually. No air bags on the truck.

Thanks, Michele

We have the same truck, 2013. We have a 35 ft. Big Horn; overall lighter than the Landmark, but our pin weight is 3400 lbs. - we have the MorRyde pin box; total trailer weight right at 14,000 lbs; so we have 24% of our weight on the pin. Our ride is very good and only time we feel chucking us when concrete highway seams aren't smooth, but even then it's not that bad. One thing I did to the truck was install Bilstein shocks. That improved the ride when towing. I'm going with the theory you may need higher percentage pin weight. Maybe shocks on the truck.

 

[MrRvGypsy]

To the OP we to have a F350 Dually and we traded a 2001 Newmar that weighted close to 15klbs on a 2014 LM Savannah also. Our old Newmar (with sprung axles and shocks) and TV towed smooth as silk with a 16k Hijacker hitch and no air bags on the suspension.
Our initial trip home from the dealer ship with the Savannah was horrible. We too experienced the same thing as you are describing on our drive home from the dealer (about 4 hours) and on our first trip which happened to be back to Elkhart IN. Our trailer only had standard 7K lb axles and drum brakes standard from the factory which we intended to upgrade immediately to the MOR RYDE IS and disk brakes on that first trip to Elkhart.
Needless to say the ride home was a huge improvement with the MOR-RYDE installed but the pin weight was still causing the back end of the truck to ride very harsh as the rear suspension was sitting fully on the very stiff overload springs due to the Savannah's heavy pin weight.
Installing Firestone Ride-rite Air bags on the truck completed the transformation for us. We now run with 40lbs of air in the airbags, the truck is now completely off the overloads and riding on a cushion of air in the rear with the same hitch as before and the ride is now excellent both for the trailer and for the passengers in the truck.
On a side note when MOR-RYDE cutoff the redundant factory shock absorbers I was baffled that the Lippert engineers would install the shocks at such an exaggerated angle that it is hard to believe they were doing much of anything to cushion the ride. The shocks were mounted at a 45 degree angle to the up and down axle motion and a such would not had much travel to provide significant shock rebound control.

 

[For20hunter]

You put some airbags on that F-350 and it will transform your ride completely! We also have the fifth airborne pin on the fifth wheel and we have a completely smooth ride!

Rod

It is a Mor-Ryde hitch. I'm pulling with a Ford F 350 , 6.7 , dually. No air bags on the truck.

Thanks, Michele

 

[Jim.Allison]

I think the shock absorbers are "spring oscillation dampeners". They essentially work to convert the energy inputted into the springs by rough road surfaces into heat energy that is dissipated later on. An extreme example might be hitting a chug hole. The energy imparted into the spring from that impact would cause the spring to move back and forth several times before the energy is dissipated enough to return to a smooth ride. The shock works to dissipate a portion of that energy on every cycle thereby allowing the spring to return to a smooth ride earlier. Essentially it is holding the tire on the ground rather than let it bounce until the energy is bled off. I cannot answer why the funny angle. However the only ineffective position around the 360 degree travel of possible axle mounting points on the axle would be 90 degrees to vertical. 0 and 180 being the most effective in a hydraulic shock and perhaps a gas shock also. I will maintain mine for now, but I have questions about them and the extreme angle.

 

[MrRvGypsy]

I think the shock absorbers are "spring oscillation dampers" that have as an attribute as a ride smoothing device in automobiles. Those tiny shocks on our rigs pail in comparisons to the load they are supposedly dampening. Those shock are the same ones used on 3000 lb automobiles. They by their nature and application are not performing the same task as on a car. The extreme angle that everyone is familiar with, is evidence that the shock is not designed to dampen vertical oscillations of the springs, but rather dampen the oscillations of the equalization system such as the Dexter EZ Flex. Albeit still mis-located. There are so many oscillations going on under there, those shocks will see more duty in 2000 miles on an RV than on 20,000 on a car. I bet money that mine are already worn out. IMHO

Hey Jim your idea about the purpose of the extreme angle shocks to dampen oscillations in the equalization system between the springs makes alot of sense. My old Newmar had no spring equalization system and much larger shocks mounted at an angle that would have provided substantial vertically dampening.

 

[Jim.Allison]

I edited that post, for content. But I still believe it. I noticed that the attachment points were not amenable to my theory. BUT this is some more of my thinking. The shocks have no relationship to the weight of the trailer but more of a relationship to the oscillation of the springs and equalization member of the the trailer. So in this manner the energy imparted into the wheels, tires, wheels and axle by an imperfect road surface is faded into heat energy by the shock absorber only in relationship to the trailer. Since the trailer is more immovable it is the anchor source for the shock but the shock is not designed to cushion anything for the trailer but rather inhibit the suspension from oscillating in relationship to the trailer. During an impact the trailer receives one large impact and progressively smaller impacts because of the shock, resulting in what is perceived as a smooth ride. It is only a smoother ride not a smooth ride. This all happens in a matter of split seconds not over seconds.

Hey Jim your idea about the purpose of the extreme angle shocks to dampen oscillations in the equalization system between the springs makes a lot of sense. My old Newmar had no spring equalization system and much larger shocks mounted at an angle that would have provided substantial vertically dampening.

 

[porthole]

The Ford Diesel will bounce the truck off the road when the motor starts to fail.

Where do you come up with this stuff

 

[GOTTOYS]

Where do you come up with this stuff

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance...baffle them with B.S...The more the better! Myself I would contact Mor-Ryde and make sure you have the right size rubber in the pin box for the weight of your trailer. The Mor-Ryde is designed to help eliminate chucking. My guess is that will cure it without having to go through the previously posted list of "cures". Good luck. JMHO..Don

 

[Jim.Allison]

It is funny what people say when they want to balance their ego. My policy is to pass over comments that I do not understand or know about. In that manner I don't insult someone that might know what they are talking about.