3160 EL PDI Results

[SeattleLion]

Are you sure? Somehow I don't think Heartland works that way. They want to keep their line running.

 

[swburbguy]

I didn't go through a heartland tour. But Jayco had a quota of 5 Pinnacles the day I was there and no one was working at 230 in the afternoon. I just thought they all worked that way

 

[boatto5er]

Don't throw Dans suggestion on the striker plate out the window. After some traveling over our wonderful highways your door frame may "settle" and it will stop latching again. The oversized striker plate will prevent this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dave10a]

The American auto industry was building vehicles with poor quality control until Japan Auto manufacturers like Honda and Toyota proved that quality can be present. This resulted in the American auto industry to change their ways and produce near the same quality as the Japanese folks. Maybe having Japan enter the RV market is what is needed ;-)
There should be no reason to return a RV back to the dealer to get poor quality control corrected like they are today. I am amazed at how brand loyalist make excuses and forgive shoddy workmanship of any manufacturer. It is not rational if one sits back and thinks objectively about it.

 

[jimtoo]

Just so you know... all the car manufactures pay the dealer a NVI fee. "New Vehicle Inspection" This is done before the car or pickup is shown to customers. This fee is usually 1 hour to 2 hours warranty time( which is the posted labor rate) to inspect and correct minor adjustments, any thing else is charged at regular warranty rates for repair or a major adjustment. I have seen many times when a new vehicle comes off the truck and $100 to $300 or more is charged to the manufacture because things were not correct or did not work in addition to the NVI. This is normally done before the customer gets to see the vehicle because the manufacture does not want customers to see their mistakes. So it is not just RV manufactures that make mistakes or their QC people do not catch it.

Jim M

 

[Kbvols]

I will start off with saying I love my RV and certainly agree with improving the quality. As some have stated it is get them built and out the door. The industry trend is lighter weight, cheaper components and faster production. Adding to that is the down turn in the economy in 2008 nearly devastated the industry. The workforce in Elkhart county is not near what it was pre-2008 a lot of the "skilled" RV labor either left or found other work. Those that survived found ways to make cheaper products with less labor costs. Anyway multiple reason why I believe quality is shoddy hopefully it will improve over time. Certainly vigilant customers will help force the demand for better quality products.

I know a lot of people consider an RV an investment. Yes a lot of hard earned money is spent and expectations should be met but an RV is not an investment. RV's are an expense! A depreciating asset. I would speculate at minimum 98% of RV's will depreciate in value over time just like an automobile. So no matter the initial quality I hope all goes well and you enjoy...... might as well ...more than likely it is costing you $$ either way.

 

[dave10a]

Even today with American Auto makers doing a much better job at QC since the 80's, Japan and Korea have a better QC record according to Consumer Guide which rates Honda, Subaru, Toyota and some Korean brands better than Ford, GM and Chrysler. American workers have the ability to do better, but maybe they are held back by leadership. Many of the Japanese and Korean auto are built in the US, which proves our workers are capable of doing better QC. What is Honda and Toyota doing in the US to outperform GM, Ford and Chrysler in building better quality?

 

[SeattleLion]

Just so you know... all the car manufactures pay the dealer a NVI fee. "New Vehicle Inspection" This is done before the car or pickup is shown to customers. This fee is usually 1 hour to 2 hours warranty time( which is the posted labor rate) to inspect and correct minor adjustments, any thing else is charged at regular warranty rates for repair or a major adjustment. I have seen many times when a new vehicle comes off the truck and $100 to $300 or more is charged to the manufacture because things were not correct or did not work in addition to the NVI. This is normally done before the customer gets to see the vehicle because the manufacture does not want customers to see their mistakes. So it is not just RV manufactures that make mistakes or their QC people do not catch it.

Jim M

As a customer, I am not really concerned about where the work is done. I want the product I receive to be defect free. If car companies choose to pay dealers to do the "last mile" of QA that is fine with me. I'm sure they worked out the costs and have determined that is the best route. If Heartland wants my dealer to do the same, then it has the responsibility of making sure that work is done correctly before I set foot in the trailer. QA is not just at the factory. It is a process that ends when the customer receives the defect-free product. Since RV dealers carry numerous brands and models, it is tough to imagine that Heartland has the clout to force training on the dealers and to require PDI's to catch everything. When I took delivery of my Fords, I got a customer survey. If I rated any part of the delivery process less than excellent, the dealer is penalized. I haven't gotten my Heartland satisfaction survey yet. Is it lost in the mail?

 

[TravelTiger]

RV dealers are NOT an extension of the manufacturer. A dealer can pick and choose what lines to carry. It's not fair to compare the business model to the auto industry. Rv manufacturers make a far more complicated end product, produce fewer, and are completely constructed by hands -- not assembly line robots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SeattleLion]

RV dealers are NOT an extension of the manufacturer. A dealer can pick and choose what lines to carry. It's not fair to compare the business model to the auto industry. Rv manufacturers make a far more complicated end product, produce fewer, and are completely constructed by hands -- not assembly line robots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RV's more complicated than a car????? Really? The engine of a car has more parts than 2 RV's of any size. RV's are very simple systems with a relatively few parts. It is perfectly fair to compare the RV industry to the car industry. You are incorrect in your assumptions. How a car is assembled is by a combination of automation and people. The RV industry has the same options, just doesn't invest the money in automation. The point is very simple: the RV industry has no real incentive to spend more money on quality. That will only change when we have choices from sources that really invest in assuring that the customer isn't doing the final testing of their product.

A car dealer sells a lot of different models with a far greater range of options than a RV dealer. Somehow the car dealer manages to deliver defect-free cars. I am amazed that you think a trailer is more complex than your truck. Unless your truck was built before 1950, it has a vast number of systems and engineering details, all of which can save your life. A trailer is not a master work of engineering. It's mostly house construction on a steel frame. RV manufacturers don't even make the components they use to build. Your trailer has a frame by Lipert, pin box by the same company. A Lipert 6 point leveling system, Dometic AC and appliances, etc., etc. Heartland assembles those items along with building some fiberglass walls. Building a quality trailer isn't a trivial task by any means, but it isn't exactly rocket science.

I'm sorry if you feel I am replying too strongly. It's just that your attitude is what allows the RV industry to keep delivering substandard quality. All of the automation and high tech stuff a car maker uses will also work in Heartland's plant if they wanted to invest in the capital expense. They don't and I don't blame them. According to a Heartland manager I spoke with in January, Heartland turns out ten trailers a day. That is about 25% of the industry average. They do this, he said, so that they can build the highest quality coach on the market. You know, it may be the highest quality out there. I think so. It's why I spent so much money on my Bighorn. However, that doesn't mean I am going to drink the Kool Aide and claim that the "complexity" of my trailer is so great that I have to accept repairs before I can even take delivery. That is unacceptable.

I spent 3 hours going over my coach. I discovered more than 10 items that needed to be corrected before delivery. I'm not a professional quality control person. But that's the fact. Before I set foot in the trailer, Heartland inspectors allegedly went through the product with a fine tooth comb and made sure that everything was ok. After my dealer sold it to me, he performed a PDI and supposedly corrected any little thing the factory experts may have overlooked. Now I go for a walk through. Is there any excuse for me finding even a single problem after the manufacturer and dealer both inspected? Of course not! Here I am, an amateur discovering big issues that the so-called experts missed. Holy !@#$!!!! It's a good thing these guys didn't make and deliver the space shuttle.

 

[TravelTiger]

Bob,

I'm not trying to personally attack you and your opinion. I am sorry if it came across that way.

I believe that we're trying to compare apples to oranges, which is not a fair comparison. The auto industry produces over 60 million passenger cars in a single year. Obviously, automation, repetition and reliability are critical. And yes, they are complicated, in a different way. How many houses are built on an assembly line? An RV is a house on wheels, not an automobile.

"It's just that your attitude is what allows the RV industry to keep delivering substandard quality." -- My opinion is not this. I agree with you that the RV industry quality overall, stinks. But to singly bash a particular manufacturer or to expect a perfect RV in today's market is unrealistic, and to compare the RV industry to the auto industry isn't either.

The first step is demanding a coach be "right" before we sign the papers. If more folks did this, I think the dealers would start making sure the units were in better shape. If it costs the dealership, then they may push back on the manufacturers, or stop carrying lines that have too many problems. Then, you might see manufacturers take action. Then what happens? Production slows down (to make a better built unit) and becomes more expensive, and that ultimately gets passed to the consumer.

An old printing industry saying goes, "Good, fast, cheap. Pick two." I think this applies here, too.


Erika

 

[Kbvols]

I understand the RV manufactures don't have the same business model as auto manufactures as it relates to it dealers. I do believe it would be beneficial for manufactures to find avenues to leverage it's dealers into providing more consistent levels of service. I agree with Seattlelion if the end consumer doesn't push for better quality the industry will remain at status quo or perhaps even die. Much as did US auto mgf's. I bought Heartland as I believed they were of the best quality in an industry that produces a lot of ....well ****. Still heartland can work to do better. I believe the mgf's focus more on the "bling" of a product for sales and repeat purchases than quality of the product.

 

[SeattleLion]

Erika,

I don't feel attacked. I am just impatient with too much acceptance on the part of our community. We tend to be nice people who are not comfortable demanding anything. I am learning not to be that way. Just because the auto industry makes 60 million cars a year, it doesn't mean that a manufacturer doesn't have exactly the same problems. In fact, the more of something you make, the more likely quality will slip because defects are buried in the mass of production. My previous car was a Nissan 370Z. Nissan only makes about 12,000 a year. That is certainly comparable to a brand of RV. Yet, they have virtually no warranty claims on initial delivery. Nuff said about that.

Here's the thing that I see: Trailers are pretty easy to build. The technology is old and well proven, the skill level of most workers can be pretty low. All of the complex parts and pieces come from other companies who specialize in making those parts and pieces. I don't agree that building a rolling house is particularly tough. The trailer industry is very old and the techniques to build these things are well known. I am pretty sure I could build one if I wanted to. Heck, watch "How It's Made" on the science channel and you can get better training than a lot of the people really building them.

I agree that one tool to force the dealer, at least, to do a better job is not to pay until you are happy with the product. My dealer won't do this. They just won't. More importantly, they don't need to. While they have the same quality issues as the others in the industry, they are very happy to do a high quality job dealing with any issues. Here in Washington we have the same issues with workers who don't take pride in what they do. The big difference with Fife RV is that their management will do anything needed to make things right. I am completely confident that when I return, all will be well.

It seems to me that Heartland managers must be feeling the same frustration that we do. I am absolutely sure that Kary Katzenberger is 100% committed to delivering perfect coaches. The amazingly responsive Heartland people we meet here or at customer service tell me that this is one company that cares. Then why do they ship so many defects? I am pretty sure that is because they don't have a quality culture. Thor expects Heartland to return a healthy profit and would look sideways at a loss of some profitability for something as frivolous as quality. According to my dealer's service manger, Heartland and the others underpay for warranty work. I'm told that the dealer is allowed the same labor hours for a repair as it took to fabricate that part of the trailer. In the case of my old Kodiak, which had a riveted belly pan, the dealer was paid for 3 hours work to drop the belly pan and put a new one on. They had to drill out over 100 rivets. It actually took two days to do that work. The only winner in the deal is the manufacturer whose initial quality was so bad.

To be really clear, I hold Heartland to blame for any initial quality issues. This includes fit and finish for all interior and exterior parts. I don't hold them responsible for issues that crop up later that aren't due to cost cutting or poor engineering. That is the nature of the beast. A trailer is a mish-mosh of 3rd party components. If a company can't manage to catch a poorly hung door, it won't be able to ride herd on a supplier.

Heartland has won my heart through its unfailing efforts to help me. That tells me the company has customer-focused management. Now we need to find a way to convince them to put quality first. It's inexcusable that a company who only builds ten units a day can't catch doors that won't close. It's absolutely inconceivable that a customer can do a walk through and expose a list of defects. Where was the factory QA team? Where was the dealer PDI crew? I paid a lot of money for the PDI (as I understand it, that fee included transportation from Indiana plus making the trailer ready). I clearly didn't get my money's worth. Did I spend all that money for a "fixer-upper"? Kary, Jim: Is anyone in manufacturing accountable for sending me a 3160EL with so many problems? You should be sending me a check for doing the QA and paying my dealer to fix your mistakes.

 

[gvtahoe88]

Erika,

I don't feel attacked. I am just impatient with too much acceptance on the part of our community. We tend to be nice people who are not comfortable demanding anything. I am learning not to be that way. Just because the auto industry makes 60 million cars a year, it doesn't mean that a manufacturer doesn't have exactly the same problems. In fact, the more of something you make, the more likely quality will slip because defects are buried in the mass of production. My previous car was a Nissan 370Z. Nissan only makes about 12,000 a year. That is certainly comparable to a brand of RV. Yet, they have virtually no warranty claims on initial delivery. Nuff said about that.

Here's the thing that I see: Trailers are pretty easy to build. The technology is old and well proven, the skill level of most workers can be pretty low. All of the complex parts and pieces come from other companies who specialize in making those parts and pieces. I don't agree that building a rolling house is particularly tough. The trailer industry is very old and the techniques to build these things are well known. I am pretty sure I could build one if I wanted to. Heck, watch "How It's Made" on the science channel and you can get better training than a lot of the people really building them.

I agree that one tool to force the dealer, at least, to do a better job is not to pay until you are happy with the product. My dealer won't do this. They just won't. More importantly, they don't need to. While they have the same quality issues as the others in the industry, they are very happy to do a high quality job dealing with any issues. Here in Washington we have the same issues with workers who don't take pride in what they do. The big difference with Fife RV is that their management will do anything needed to make things right. I am completely confident that when I return, all will be well.

It seems to me that Heartland managers must be feeling the same frustration that we do. I am absolutely sure that Kary Katzenberger is 100% committed to delivering perfect coaches. The amazingly responsive Heartland people we meet here or at customer service tell me that this is one company that cares. Then why do they ship so many defects? I am pretty sure that is because they don't have a quality culture. Thor expects Heartland to return a healthy profit and would look sideways at a loss of some profitability for something as frivolous as quality. According to my dealer's service manger, Heartland and the others underpay for warranty work. I'm told that the dealer is allowed the same labor hours for a repair as it took to fabricate that part of the trailer. In the case of my old Kodiak, which had a riveted belly pan, the dealer was paid for 3 hours work to drop the belly pan and put a new one on. They had to drill out over 100 rivets. It actually took two days to do that work. The only winner in the deal is the manufacturer whose initial quality was so bad.

To be really clear, I hold Heartland to blame for any initial quality issues. This includes fit and finish for all interior and exterior parts. I don't hold them responsible for issues that crop up later that aren't due to cost cutting or poor engineering. That is the nature of the beast. A trailer is a mish-mosh of 3rd party components. If a company can't manage to catch a poorly hung door, it won't be able to ride herd on a supplier.

Heartland has won my heart through its unfailing efforts to help me. That tells me the company has customer-focused management. Now we need to find a way to convince them to put quality first. It's inexcusable that a company who only builds ten units a day can't catch doors that won't close. It's absolutely inconceivable that a customer can do a walk through and expose a list of defects. Where was the factory QA team? Where was the dealer PDI crew? I paid a lot of money for the PDI (as I understand it, that fee included transportation from Indiana plus making the trailer ready). I clearly didn't get my money's worth. Did I spend all that money for a "fixer-upper"? Kary, Jim: Is anyone in manufacturing accountable for sending me a 3160EL with so many problems? You should be sending me a check for doing the QA and paying my dealer to fix your mistakes.

Amen bro!!!!

 

[dave10a]

Heartland did stand by my warranty issues without too much hassle, but it would be nice if they spent a little more effort to prevent most of them. Getting them fixed is a pain in the ***.

 

[emm4273610re]

When we bought ours we had very few issues. That was 2012. Seems like after reading about this they are pushing out more just to reach their numbers. At least you had a dealer attempt to PDI your new unit. Just imagine the disappointment when someone buys a Bighorn from a wholesaler and has nowhere to go back to. There seems to be an issue with lack of quality and pride with many things made in this country which also extends to the prep department's pride at your dealer. You should go to an open house in your area of a newly built house, and really look at the trim, cabinets etc. you think your Bighorn has issues ! It's just everywhere. Not saying all are like that it just seems the bad make it worse for everyone. When the worker has a bad day the company is no good. There are many who do take pride in their work, they are just becoming fewer mainly people don't want to pay for that quality of work. RV dealers are not like car dealers where the tech has to have all sorts of certifications just to work on to your car/truck. That's the only way you will raise the standard of the dealer but the factory's don't care who sells their product or how it's getting serviced after the factory so they don't force proper training. Again it come back to the bottom line for them. Good Luck with your new Bighorn and after this I do believe you will enjoy it for many years to come.