50-amp Service FINALLY

[djpjkglg1199]

We JUST got our power upgraded to 50-amp service from 30-amp service. HOW MANY AMPS can be allowed into each leg?

I have heard that a maximum of 80% of the rated Amperage can be used total. That means 40 amps for a 50 amp service.
Any ideas or suggestions?

 

[rhodies1]

You should be able to get close to 25 amps per leg. If you gave a surge protector you can see when appliances kick in and out of service

 

[Terry H]

50 Amp is two legs of 50 amp rated at 120 volts. 50 amp breakers will trip at 50 amps. If one leg is over 50 amps it will trip on both legs because it is a 2 - Pole circuit breaker. So it is possible to get 100% of 50 Amps in each leg.

Here is more Inforation - 30-Amp and 50-Amp RV Service: Things You Need to Know

 

[djpjkglg1199]

Well, you may not know this and most RV-ers do not:

You should be able to get close to 25 amps per leg. If you gave a surge protector you can see when appliances kick in and out of service

Technically, I was told my a Journeyman Electrician, who owns an RV, that one can SAFELY only use 24 Amps in a 30amp service environment and 40 amps in a 50 amp environment.

The figure is 80%!

In my other RV, a 50-amp capable Holiday Rambler 40 Foot endeavor, I kept noticing that when I ADAPTED to a 30-amp Plug and went above 24 amps, over time: the ONE LEG where ALL of the power flows in a three-pronged 30 amp MALE PLUG, would get burnt esp in Summer times when I ran one A/C of my two A/C roof mounted Units and mistakenly ran a toaster oven. Eventually the adapter plug would melt.

Remember that in a 30-amp plug, only ONE leg has power flow. In a 50amp plug, you have TWO legs of Voltage Flow (120V each).

The maximum for 30 amps is 24 and for 50 it is 40 amps (80% MAX).

My question is more about HOW WELL are Heartland RV's BALANCED? ARE THE HEARTLAND PEOPLE/ENGINEERS SMART about Power distribution from you Guys' Experience.

Example: in my 2020 Landmark Oshkosh Model, I have nearly 12 primary 110 Volt Appliances: 3 A/C units (one with a Heat Pump), a refrigerator, Microwave, Oven, Toaster, three TV's (one outside) and a standing Plug-In Tower Heater (from Costco). Of course, I know that running all three A/C units will trigger the power Management system to disable ONE item and then another in sequence.

My question is: DOES HEARTLAND balance those primary Power Items listed between the TWO LEGS of a 50-AMP SERVICE ELECTRICAL LAYOUT.

I see plenty of stupid design mistakes made by Heartland and there are DOZENS of STUPID MISTAKES made with the Materials used (these are NOT LIKE HIGH-END DIESEL PUSHERS) - - Those Holiday Ramblers and Monaco Units are dazzlingly well made RV's. Heartland uses PAPER strips all over this thing and they deem this to be a "365" full timer unit. Many of the strips used to cover the gaps at the floor level have already came loose (glue did not hold).

The HANDLE to the right of the Stairs going up into the FRONT of this unit (RAILING for hand holding while climbing the three steps) was mounted into a wall panel. Think of the panel material being like SHEET ROCK but thinner and slightly more durable. THE SCREWS go into the void and were not fastened to a Wall Stud at all. IT PULLED RIGHT OUT.

THAT is a sign of a TERRIBLE DESIGN ENGINEERING GROUP who take NO PRIDE in the materials used or pride in the workmanship on the Assembly side. This is purely B.S. - - if you ask me. And likely you will not want more from me here.

These HEARTLAND UNITS are CRAP.

In summary, these Heartlands are rather LOW-END when it comes to materials and the workmanship sucks.

Another example: When we first bought this unit, I had ONE A/C UNIT running and an OVEN, and SMOKE POURED OUT OF OUR ELECTRICAL PANEL (to the right, at floor height at the entrance).

I ran out and turned off the breaker, and came back in with an Electrician Pal (neighbor) and he found that at least ten of the TIE DOWN SCREWS in the panel were LOOSE...and they were "ARC-IN." We tightened them all and we have had NO issues since then. THAT was a close call and this RV could have burned to the GROUND.

CHECK YOUR ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS for tightness, guys!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have never been able to use the built-in ROUTED COAX cables for our TV's. They did not connect the Coax Cables in the routing of those cables and the factory REP (TECH) admitted it and told me to check a splitter inside the wall plate by our big TV in the Bedroom. I cannot get to it.

This will be our last Heartland product because of this workmanship problem.

 

[jerryjay11]

As I have dealt with electrical appliances and held an electrical wiring license during my HVAC days I have never heard of a 50, 30, 15. 20, or any circuit limited to 80%. So, I did a Google and find those searches agree with me, even if it's an RV. Only time I would be using that 80% figure is when filling my LP tanks. Here is one site that explains amperage use in an RV https://www.pickhvac.com/rv-air-conditioner/amps/

Note: CB's are designed to take a momentary amperage exceeding the rated amperage (referring to a "Slow Blow" CB or Fuse) to accommodate an AC starting, or a domestic refrigerator starting. Though the article above states refrigerators uses 6 amps, I have checked many a fridge and they run between 3 and 6 amps with the lower number more prevalent.

 

[wdk450]

I stayed at Thousand Trails Lake of The Springs in Northern California years ago, and at that time they offered some upgraded "50 amp" sites for a surcharge of $5 a night. While in one of those sites, I took a close look at the shorepower pedestal electrical boxes and saw that the dual breakers there were marked "40 amps". I raised a small fuss for them not providing what they were charging for, that is "50 amp" electrical service.

Should these breakers truly have been 50 amps as every other 50 amp RV electrical service I have experienced??

 

[Dahillbilly]

only derating I've ever dealt with is when placing wires inside conduit. The amperage rating of the wires has to be decreased according to how many conductors are in the conduit. Never seen derating for circuit breakers. Just my experience doing industrial electrical wiring.

 

[jerryjay11]

I stayed at Thousand Trails Lake of The Springs in Northern California years ago, and at that time they offered some upgraded "50 amp" sites for a surcharge of $5 a night. While in one of those sites, I took a close look at the shorepower pedestal electrical boxes and saw that the dual breakers there were marked "40 amps". I raised a small fuss for them not providing what they were charging for, that is "50 amp" electrical service.

Should these breakers truly have been 50 amps as every other 50 amp RV electrical service I have experienced??

If the breakers are 40 amps then all you have available for service is 40 amps. Also, I've never been to a campground be it state park, national forest, or private park that has a surcharge for 50 amp service. Typically, those sites have multiple service, including 20, 30, and 50 amp service and a set price for the site. Not a separate surcharge. I'd make a stink about it too.

 

[wdk450]

I believe that the $5 surcharge was dropped by TT in California as some member complained to the California Public Utilities Commission, and under their rules flat rates could not be charged for electrical service, just the results of electric usage meter readings. TT didn't want to do all those daily meter readings (or pay for installing all those meters), so they dropped those charges. At the Northern California park (Lake of the Springs) I had written notification on each park rules sheet that this would be charged to your credit card on file, and then these charges never did appear on my credit card.

Another TT park, Wilderness Lakes in Menifee, Ca. did a big 50 amp upgrade of about 100 spaces, that took them about 2 years to get done. When the project was done, they printed up a new batch of park maps, with a bold type printed announcement of the $5 surcharge on the front page. Very soon after that the newly printed maps handed out at the entrance gate had that surcharge announcement lined out with black permanent marker, and they must have hand corrected thousands of those maps, as I kept seeing them for at least the next 6 months.

 

[djpjkglg1199]

Hi, guys and esp. JerryJay11. Thanks for your clarifications. I always ASSUMED that the 50 amp SHOULD be able to safely deliver a full 50 amps or roughly 25 amps per leg and with a 30 amp, a full 30 amps on that one live leg of a 3-pronged plug.

I found a website that CONFIRMED what Rich said (electrician for 42 years). Here it is:

As I have dealt with electrical appliances and held an electrical wiring license during my HVAC days I have never heard of a 50, 30, 15. 20, or any circuit limited to 80%. So, I did a Google and find those searches agree with me, even if it's an RV. Only time I would be using that 80% figure is when filling my LP tanks. Here is one site that explains amperage use in an RV https://www.pickhvac.com/rv-air-conditioner/amps/

Note: CB's are designed to take a momentary amperage exceeding the rated amperage (referring to a "Slow Blow" CB or Fuse) to accommodate an AC starting, or a domestic refrigerator starting. Though the article above states refrigerators uses 6 amps, I have checked many a fridge and they run between 3 and 6 amps with the lower number more prevalent.

Here is a guy who confirmed the 80% rule:

50 to 30 amp dogbone or adapter plug?

So this may amount to a hill of beans, but I'm curious to learn if any advantages exist in purchasing a dogbone adapter over a simpler adapter plug for those occasions where I can't find 50 amp service available for shore power. To be clear, I'm speaking of a 50 amp female to 30 amp male...

www.rvforum.net

Scroll down and you will find it. I will ask RICH. He may have missed: "Max of 80% over an extended time." MORE RESEARCH IS NEEDED.

 

[djpjkglg1199]

80% Rule, copied: "I'm not Gary but would give you exactly the same advice. In this case what you need to understand is the relation between volts, amps, and watts. Watts is a measure of power and is determined by multiplying amps times volts. In the case you mention of 3500 watts, the missing part is the voltage, which is 120V so if you divide 3500 watts by the 120V supplied it tells you it would then be 29.2 amps and that would be fine for short periods, but not for long periods due to the 80% trip rating that Gary has mentioned. You can be pretty sure the limit won't be exceeded if you stay around 25A total, for things that run for more than a few minutes. This also assumes that the circuit breaker supplying the outlet is in good condition, as breakers are designed such that the trip point will drop as their condition deteriorates."

So, other forums are also confirming the SAFETY aspect of an 80% rule suggestion. I have caught myself running up to 27% and immediately shut down one of the appliances (Water heater and drier on at the same time)....I just inspected my 30amp adapter and it is NOT melted or, as in the past, showing signs of heat build-up (Diesel Pusher I own has a 50amp service...and I fried two plugs when using 30amps and realized that I had "gotten away with" using TOO much power but had not tripped a breaker!

 

[nickynono]

Well, you may not know this and most RV-ers do not:

Technically, I was told my a Journeyman Electrician, who owns an RV, that one can SAFELY only use 24 Amps in a 30amp service environment and 40 amps in a 50 amp environment.

The figure is 80%!

In my other RV, a 50-amp capable Holiday Rambler 40 Foot endeavor, I kept noticing that when I ADAPTED to a 30-amp Plug and went above 24 amps, over time: the ONE LEG where ALL of the power flows in a three-pronged 30 amp MALE PLUG, would get burnt esp in Summer times when I ran one A/C of my two A/C roof mounted Units and mistakenly ran a toaster oven. Eventually the adapter plug would melt.

Remember that in a 30-amp plug, only ONE leg has power flow. In a 50amp plug, you have TWO legs of Voltage Flow (120V each).

The maximum for 30 amps is 24 and for 50 it is 40 amps (80% MAX).

My question is more about HOW WELL are Heartland RV's BALANCED? ARE THE HEARTLAND PEOPLE/ENGINEERS SMART about Power distribution from you Guys' Experience.

Example: in my 2020 Landmark Oshkosh Model, I have nearly 12 primary 110 Volt Appliances: 3 A/C units (one with a Heat Pump), a refrigerator, Microwave, Oven, Toaster, three TV's (one outside) and a standing Plug-In Tower Heater (from Costco). Of course, I know that running all three A/C units will trigger the power Management system to disable ONE item and then another in sequence.

My question is: DOES HEARTLAND balance those primary Power Items listed between the TWO LEGS of a 50-AMP SERVICE ELECTRICAL LAYOUT.

I see plenty of stupid design mistakes made by Heartland and there are DOZENS of STUPID MISTAKES made with the Materials used (these are NOT LIKE HIGH-END DIESEL PUSHERS) - - Those Holiday Ramblers and Monaco Units are dazzlingly well made RV's. Heartland uses PAPER strips all over this thing and they deem this to be a "365" full timer unit. Many of the strips used to cover the gaps at the floor level have already came loose (glue did not hold).

The HANDLE to the right of the Stairs going up into the FRONT of this unit (RAILING for hand holding while climbing the three steps) was mounted into a wall panel. Think of the panel material being like SHEET ROCK but thinner and slightly more durable. THE SCREWS go into the void and were not fastened to a Wall Stud at all. IT PULLED RIGHT OUT.
THAT is a sign of a TERRIBLE DESIGN ENGINEERING GROUP who take NO PRIDE in the materials used or pride in the workmanship on the Assembly side. This is purely B.S. - - if you ask me. And likely you will not want more from me here.

These HEARTLAND UNITS are CRAP.

In summary, these Heartlands are rather LOW-END when it comes to materials and the workmanship sucks.

Another example: When we first bought this unit, I had ONE A/C UNIT running and an OVEN, and SMOKE POURED OUT OF OUR ELECTRICAL PANEL (to the right, at floor height at the entrance).

I ran out and turned off the breaker, and came back in with an Electrician Pal (neighbor) and he found that at least ten of the TIE DOWN SCREWS in the panel were LOOSE...and they were "ARC-IN." We tightened them all and we have had NO issues since then. THAT was a close call and this RV could have burned to the GROUND.

CHECK YOUR ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS for tightness, guys!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have never been able to use the built-in ROUTED COAX cables for our TV's. They did not connect the Coax Cables in the routing of those cables and the factory REP (TECH) admitted it and told me to check a splitter inside the wall plate by our big TV in the Bedroom. I cannot get to it.

This will be our last Heartland product because of this workmanship problem.

Concerning the routed coax cables for TV - a tech at Heartland told us the same thing, to check the splitter behind our big tv, but in the living area of our 2021 Bighorn Traveler. The bonus room tv hookup was not working. I pulled the fireplace below out, but no splitter. Fortunately, we were still under warranty, and brought it up with the tech's at our local RV repair. They confirmed that the coax behind the tv wall plate in the bonus room was plugged in (that's as far as I got without ripping the wall out), but the other end was plugged into....wait for it....nothing! We're trying out a new Forest River travel trailer to see how it is.

 

[Bogie]

Not sure if this will help or not.

In electrical circuits, the "80% rule" refers to the guideline that a circuit should not be continuously loaded to more than 80% of its maximum rated capacity, meaning you should only draw up to 80% of the amperage a circuit is designed to handle for extended periods to prevent overheating and potential damage to the wiring or circuit breaker; this rule is primarily based on the National Electrical Code (NEC) standards.

Key points about the 80% rule:

• Continuous loads:
  The 80% rule primarily applies to continuous loads, which are electrical devices that operate for extended periods like refrigerators, electric heaters, etc.
• Safety factor:
  This rule provides a safety margin by ensuring that the circuit doesn't reach its full capacity, which could lead to excessive heat generation and potential issues with the wiring.

The RV breaker panel should have the loads somewhat equally distributed between the two legs of 120 volts. Not to say the installer at the factory did that properly. But if they didn't, the loads within the breaker panel cabinet can be moved around and distributed between the two busses to achieve that goal.

 

[djpjkglg1199]

This is a thoughtful reply. Thanks. IT IS An AMPERAGE SAFETY MARGIN, at 80%. This is likely what my pal meant.

 

[jerryjay11]

Not sure why the concern of this 80% rule when it refers to a continuous load as being "uninterrupted for a 3-hour period". Your AC, domestic fridge, heater, etc. are not a continuous load for that period of time. These appliances power on and off within minutes, not hours. A running domestic fridge runs 3-6amps. The AC at 13or less amps. HWH maybe 4 to 12 amps. Portable electric space heaters 12 amps. The only appliance here that may run continuous is the space heater (assuming main furnace isn't being used) and the amperage draw doesn't exceed the 80% rule. Maybe I need a little schooling on this?

 

[djpjkglg1199]

Not sure why the concern of this 80% rule when it refers to a continuous load as being "uninterrupted for a 3-hour period". Your AC, domestic fridge, heater, etc. are not a continuous load for that period of time. These appliances power on and off within minutes, not hours. A running domestic fridge runs 3-6amps. The AC at 13or less amps. HWH maybe 4 to 12 amps. Portable electric space heaters 12 amps. The only appliance here that may run continuous is the space heater (assuming main furnace isn't being used) and the amperage draw doesn't exceed the 80% rule. Maybe I need a little schooling on this?

You mean to tell me that you have NEVER RUN YOUR 3 A/C units at the same time (mine has three) and then had your Wife using the Vacuum and you then decide to run the Microwave (to bake a pie, 30 minutes) and then you decide to start a Roast (45 mins) at 375 degrees?

THAT happens to me all of the time. JUST KIDDING.

Jerryjay 11, think in the extreme that it is VERY possible to run more than 40 amps for an extended period of time.

DO THE MATH. I do not have time, but we HAVE HAD A Diesel pusher (several) since 1997, and we managed to trip a breaker in just that sort of situation with only 2 A/C's running (116 degrees outside) and I was recovering from Surgery (in the back bedroom, watching a Game) and we were at my Dad's place, and the Big CAL FIRE ("AUGUST FIRE") was blazing within 10 miles and we were COMPLETELY SHUT IN trying to stay cool.

In that case, you could easily, in an extended extreme situation, heat up one leg of a 50-amp service EASILY. Have you ever been in an RV at 116 Degrees F. WE HAVE MANY TIMES and we would continuously run ALL of our A/C, water heater left on (by mistake - not on purpose - - on A/C) and then my wife forgets and ran the drier for 60 minutes and I then got super smart, under meds and decide to use the Convection Oven....I was BRAIN DEAD and sure enough, it was at 48 amps for an extended period and both power legs of our 50-amp plug were fried.

I learned the hard way. YES, that is extreme but believe you me, I was an engineer myself and we ALWAYS Designed our Motherboards (I owned a PC MOTHERBOARD business selling main boards to Gateway, Dell, etc.) and we designed our boards for the EXTREME! That was purposeful.

We were Q-A'd at less than .05% DOA rates. Look up DOA.

 

[Big-B]

You can safely plug a 50 amp RV into a 200 amp service with no problems. The problem comes in when you think that you can use adapters to use a 50 amp RV with an adapter that is rated at 15 or 20 amps and still run everything in the RV like you would if you were plugged into a 50 amp pedestal.

 

[Rip]

You should be able to get close to 25 amps per leg. If you gave a surge protector you can see when appliances kick in and out of service

Incorrect: You can get 50amps per leg. That is 100 amps total.

 

[djpjkglg1199]

I wanted to add a note to all of your fun RV-ers: On ALL of my Diesel Pushers (Allegro Bus, Marathon, Holiday Rambler, Monaco) all of them, including this Landmark Oshkosh Model include Amp Meter Displays. So, in our Landmark, as I did on all of them, here is what I did:

1. Turn off ALL appliances, except for the Refrig. NOTE THE AMP DRAW at that point (2 amps).
2. Then, one at a time: turned on our space Heater: 8 Amps. Turned it off. I went right up the line.
3. By the time I was done, I had amp draws on each other device (Oven, Convection/Micro, Water Heater, Heat Pump, TV (not much there), Toaster, A/C's and Coffee Maker, etc.
4. I typed them out and printed a Clear List of Amps by device. Knowing my SAFE limits, I keep the usage at or below 40-44 amps Max.

If you do this, you then know WHICH three or four 120Volt devices that you can run concurrently. IT WORKS.

This is especially true when we got stuck in a 112 degree F temps in Red Bluff, Ca when I was having a major Surgery in 2020. We never blew a breaker.

DJ

 

[mlpeloquin]

Read about the 80% rule here:
https://learnmetrics.com/sizing-a-circuit-breaker-breaker-size-calculator/

I have designed equipment and specified breakers. Breakers have a zone of operations based on ambient temperature, current flow, and a +/- percentage of designed trip point. The time it will take to trip when close to and beyond the stated current. It all will very with the above.