mobilcastle
Well-known member
I think when all these details get worked out this will be a great rig.
murry135
New York Chapter Leaders - retired
I am a present owner of a 2013 Landmark Key Largo and we love our coach. We do not plan on upgrading anytime soon but our next purchase would take into consideration a Class "A." Since the introduction of the Newport I now am swayed back to the 5'er by Heartland Landmark Newport. However looking at several Landmarks at recent shows and dealerships I am extremely disappointed in the product. Plenty of fit and finish issues and we, my wife and I, feel that the Bighorn product has taken the lead in QC and design. Lots of suggestions here about what to add and delete but before you do evolve these ideas into the Landmark you, Tom, should take a closer look at your product. Sorry to be so blunt about this but it is the talk around campfires how Landmark is losing its Luxury appeal. Here a few things we did not like: kitchen sink color and composite, fit and finish of entire unit, lack of presentation that Bighorn has, white paint scheme, cheap ladder, lack of GVWR when loaded (should not rule out full timers that boondock or carry water, many reasons to travel with fresh water on board) and an upgrade to suspension. JMHO
T
TomMontague
Guest
Thank you for your thoughts and suggestions. First let me address the QC issue. Landmark365, Big Horn and Big Country are all made on the same line, by the same people, and undergo the same inspection process. Because of the additional expectations owners have when purchasing a LM365 we have just implemented an additional mandatory PDI for units before they ship. I'm confident the product coming offline today will meet our customers expectations. That being said - I've seen product get beat up pretty good at shows and sometimes on dealer lots and those are variables that are hard for us to control.
As for the product itself - I'm confident in our design - can it get better? Yes
The sink is designed specifically by us after speaking to full-timers all across the country. The need was simple - we want the flexibility to wash large pots and pans AND have the ability to have a 50/50 or 60/40 split if needed. The current sink allows you to wash large items and incorporates a built in ledge or a rubber maid tub to sit on when you want to divide the sink. The depth is required because of the dishwasher option. The material is solid surface - if it stains - fill it to the level of the stain with water, add a 1/2 cup of bleach and leave overnight. The stain will be gone in the morning... I would love to have used stainless steel but the dimensions are not standard and a stainless mold is several thousand dollars and wasn't an option.
The paint schemes are designed to be energy efficient because most of our customers spend significant amounts of time in the sun. We also have 4 paint options that match the 5 best selling truck paint colors. White, Black, Silver, Brown and Red.
We don't focus too much on boondocking because the majority of our customers are usually at campsites with 50amp service. We can't be everything to all people so we focus on the majors and not the minors... Doesn't make it right but its the truth...
The GVWR's will vary. Our Newport floorplan has been going out the door at an average of 14,600 - The total GVWR is 17,500 which on this floor plan is approx. 2900lbs of carry capacity. Not bad considering this is the largest and heaviest coach we will build... All the carrying capacities on future floor plans will increase because the overall coach will weigh less.
I'm not sure what you were asking for as far as suspension. We have 8K axles standard, 17.5" H range tires standard and 4 gas shocks. Customers wanting disc brakes have that option and we have a coupon for customers wanting Mor-Ryde IS.
Add to the above list, upgraded furniture, mattress & box spring, induction cooktop, all LED interior & exterior lighting, upgraded buffet with pop-up 110 outlet & USB ports, upgraded carpet, dual sided island, SOLID MAPLE DRAWER BOXES THROUGHOUT, 7'-3" slide heights, pots and pans drawer, solid surface upgrade, solid surface backsplash, upgraded Quad Entry Step, the standard POWER MANAGEMENT SYSTEM and the ability to add and run 3, 15,000 BTU a/c's at the same time make the LM365 stand pretty tall.
We are doing our best to make a product that meets and exceeds the expectations of all full-timers. Hopefully you will find something you like in the LM365 lineup as new floorplans are released...
Hope this helps.
Thanks,
Tom
As for the product itself - I'm confident in our design - can it get better? Yes
The sink is designed specifically by us after speaking to full-timers all across the country. The need was simple - we want the flexibility to wash large pots and pans AND have the ability to have a 50/50 or 60/40 split if needed. The current sink allows you to wash large items and incorporates a built in ledge or a rubber maid tub to sit on when you want to divide the sink. The depth is required because of the dishwasher option. The material is solid surface - if it stains - fill it to the level of the stain with water, add a 1/2 cup of bleach and leave overnight. The stain will be gone in the morning... I would love to have used stainless steel but the dimensions are not standard and a stainless mold is several thousand dollars and wasn't an option.
The paint schemes are designed to be energy efficient because most of our customers spend significant amounts of time in the sun. We also have 4 paint options that match the 5 best selling truck paint colors. White, Black, Silver, Brown and Red.
We don't focus too much on boondocking because the majority of our customers are usually at campsites with 50amp service. We can't be everything to all people so we focus on the majors and not the minors... Doesn't make it right but its the truth...
The GVWR's will vary. Our Newport floorplan has been going out the door at an average of 14,600 - The total GVWR is 17,500 which on this floor plan is approx. 2900lbs of carry capacity. Not bad considering this is the largest and heaviest coach we will build... All the carrying capacities on future floor plans will increase because the overall coach will weigh less.
I'm not sure what you were asking for as far as suspension. We have 8K axles standard, 17.5" H range tires standard and 4 gas shocks. Customers wanting disc brakes have that option and we have a coupon for customers wanting Mor-Ryde IS.
Add to the above list, upgraded furniture, mattress & box spring, induction cooktop, all LED interior & exterior lighting, upgraded buffet with pop-up 110 outlet & USB ports, upgraded carpet, dual sided island, SOLID MAPLE DRAWER BOXES THROUGHOUT, 7'-3" slide heights, pots and pans drawer, solid surface upgrade, solid surface backsplash, upgraded Quad Entry Step, the standard POWER MANAGEMENT SYSTEM and the ability to add and run 3, 15,000 BTU a/c's at the same time make the LM365 stand pretty tall.
We are doing our best to make a product that meets and exceeds the expectations of all full-timers. Hopefully you will find something you like in the LM365 lineup as new floorplans are released...
Hope this helps.
Thanks,
Tom
kakampers
Past Heartland Ambassador
Being a full time RVer for the last 10 years, I have to agree with several of murry135's points. We also own a 2013 Key Largo and feel some things in the Landmark 365 will actually turn full timers way.
First, we have the chocolate paint which in our opinion is much preferred over the white. We spent six years full timing in a white Bighorn and the last two in our Chocolate Landmark. We stay exclusively out in the open sun as we have a roof top sat dish and there is NO appreciable difference in keeping the Landmark cool. The only thing we feel actually affects the inside temps would be roof color which needs to be light.
Being a full timer, whether boondocking or not, the ability to carry water is very important...we need on board water for rest stops, parks with electric only, etc. The need for large carrying capacities is extremely important when full timing...it seems since the GVWR was raised in the 365 the capacity is just about the same as our 2013 Landmark and we were over our GVWR from day one....even without water. Most full timers are looking for a CCC in the 3,000 to 4,000 range...maybe an upgrade in the Landmark frame is warranted.
I think what murry135 is alluding to concerning the suspension revolves around the use of springs and specifically the spring hangers...the hangers have not changed and they are the weak point. On our Bighorn, after years of backing our rig, one of the hangers sheared off even after adding 8k axles, springs and 17.5 tires. We had Mor Ryde IS added to our new unit prior to delivery to our dealer. Providing better suspension options, that eliminate the weak point would be of great interest to full timers since our use is extreme compared to the snowbird or casual user.
You are doing great things with the interiors, however, full time RVers tend to look past the "glitz" and focus on the "bones"...that, in our opinion, is where Heartland needs to focus if they truly want to attract the full time user.
First, we have the chocolate paint which in our opinion is much preferred over the white. We spent six years full timing in a white Bighorn and the last two in our Chocolate Landmark. We stay exclusively out in the open sun as we have a roof top sat dish and there is NO appreciable difference in keeping the Landmark cool. The only thing we feel actually affects the inside temps would be roof color which needs to be light.
Being a full timer, whether boondocking or not, the ability to carry water is very important...we need on board water for rest stops, parks with electric only, etc. The need for large carrying capacities is extremely important when full timing...it seems since the GVWR was raised in the 365 the capacity is just about the same as our 2013 Landmark and we were over our GVWR from day one....even without water. Most full timers are looking for a CCC in the 3,000 to 4,000 range...maybe an upgrade in the Landmark frame is warranted.
I think what murry135 is alluding to concerning the suspension revolves around the use of springs and specifically the spring hangers...the hangers have not changed and they are the weak point. On our Bighorn, after years of backing our rig, one of the hangers sheared off even after adding 8k axles, springs and 17.5 tires. We had Mor Ryde IS added to our new unit prior to delivery to our dealer. Providing better suspension options, that eliminate the weak point would be of great interest to full timers since our use is extreme compared to the snowbird or casual user.
You are doing great things with the interiors, however, full time RVers tend to look past the "glitz" and focus on the "bones"...that, in our opinion, is where Heartland needs to focus if they truly want to attract the full time user.
MTPockets
Well-known member
I have to agree on the cargo capacity issue. We full time and love our Big Horn. We've weighed our rig twice, loaded for Fulltimers and our total cargo weight 'with' about 1/4 tank of fresh water is 2600 lbs.. Actually over the specs for this unit, but we did upgrade our axles and tires so feel we are good there. Our final build weight was more than catalog after we added factory installed generator, dual pane windows, hitch receiver.. I would fully expect a Landmark to be capable of a higher cargo capacity after generator and other factory upgrades; however it does seem to be lacking capacity for full timers gear.
TravelTiger
Founding Texas-West Chapter Leaders-Retired
Here's the coupon I saw at the Dallas RV show.
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porthole
Retired
I'm curious as to what was done to shave 1000 pounds off the 3 Newports I have seen so far.
The 3 were all approximately 15,700, without washer and dryer, generator and dual pane windows, slide toppers, aluminum guards etc.
The dry weight listed on the spec sheet is 15,231
Guestimating the above options may tip the scales at 16k, leaves only 1500 pounds, less 900 pounds for water that quite a few of us actually do carry, netting only 600-700 pounds for cargo.
murry135
New York Chapter Leaders - retired
Good question Porthole. Options add weight, thus reduce cargo capacity. Hummm now we can FULL TIME with less of our daily needed stuff. So in Tom's eyes FULL TIMERS should carry less cargo, no water and ride on a suspension that is underrated for HEAVIEST RIG made by Heartland. As we all know the Lippert frame and 8k axles did not last the first trip with my Key Largo and put us out for 3 weeks while at Lippert being re-welled. Seems like some one does not listen to his constituents too well. We are the ones running these units down the road day in and day out, you think we might have some good input into rig design.
MTPockets
Well-known member
Like I said..... Tom?
adam
Well-known member
Hi All,
i don't think I need to come to Toms rescue as he seems very capable. But let me play devils advocate;
Every RV has it's faults, they all need improvement. Having a venue where we can engage the players who ultimately design and bring the products to the marketplace is invaluable. The ongoing dialogue is healthy - but we all have choices. You could always go buy a product from a manufacturer who doesn't engage their customers. Or you could go get a Continental Coach or New Horizons coach.....Don't forget to take your cheque for $200,000+ too! Plus put a for sale sign in your 1 ton dually too because it now becomes useless.
At this level of ownership we are fairly educated consumers and know what is doable and what is not at this price point of fifth wheel.
I put quality control at the top, highest, paramount - foremost as my message to Tom, I think he gets that. If you need to haul 1200 lbs of water around then see the fifth wheels I mentioned above or shop around for a quality tag-axle motorhome that can handle weight. Then your all set.
A month ago I engaged Heartland and Lippert about the spring hangers on our 2015 unit. They assured me that my frame was up to the task provided I didn't overload the coach and didn't haul water....???? Well guess what - I never over load my coach but I need to haul water.....at least enough to let the kids wash their hands or flush the toilet while traveling. The answer; I took my unit at my expense and had the spring hangers completely reworked for extra strength. I didn't submit a claim or request to be reimbursed by either manufacturer - it's just a $800 pill that I swallowed at my own expense. Problem resolved. Life goes on.
In ending I totally understand we want a quality constructed unit that has high fit and finish and is a reliable performer over the course of ownership......but having a 43' coach with solid surface countertops, 2 baths + all the luxuries, huge storage and huge capacities for $100,000 that can be pulled by a dually is something in tune with a fairytale!
Sorry but that's the truth,
Adam
i don't think I need to come to Toms rescue as he seems very capable. But let me play devils advocate;
Every RV has it's faults, they all need improvement. Having a venue where we can engage the players who ultimately design and bring the products to the marketplace is invaluable. The ongoing dialogue is healthy - but we all have choices. You could always go buy a product from a manufacturer who doesn't engage their customers. Or you could go get a Continental Coach or New Horizons coach.....Don't forget to take your cheque for $200,000+ too! Plus put a for sale sign in your 1 ton dually too because it now becomes useless.
At this level of ownership we are fairly educated consumers and know what is doable and what is not at this price point of fifth wheel.
I put quality control at the top, highest, paramount - foremost as my message to Tom, I think he gets that. If you need to haul 1200 lbs of water around then see the fifth wheels I mentioned above or shop around for a quality tag-axle motorhome that can handle weight. Then your all set.
A month ago I engaged Heartland and Lippert about the spring hangers on our 2015 unit. They assured me that my frame was up to the task provided I didn't overload the coach and didn't haul water....???? Well guess what - I never over load my coach but I need to haul water.....at least enough to let the kids wash their hands or flush the toilet while traveling. The answer; I took my unit at my expense and had the spring hangers completely reworked for extra strength. I didn't submit a claim or request to be reimbursed by either manufacturer - it's just a $800 pill that I swallowed at my own expense. Problem resolved. Life goes on.
In ending I totally understand we want a quality constructed unit that has high fit and finish and is a reliable performer over the course of ownership......but having a 43' coach with solid surface countertops, 2 baths + all the luxuries, huge storage and huge capacities for $100,000 that can be pulled by a dually is something in tune with a fairytale!
Sorry but that's the truth,
Adam
T
TomMontague
Guest
Interesting comments - how does Jim Beletti run 20-25,000 miles a year with 8k axles and the same suspension and have almost no issues? I would bet Jim puts more miles on his rig than any two people on this forum and I don't see him echoing these thoughts - we work very hard to build the best coach possible and we are always looking at ways to improve.
Constructive criticism and realistic dialogue about how to improve is always welcome.
Again - the Newport is the biggest and heaviest floor plan we build with the least amount of carrying capacity. All other LM365 floor plans will have increased carrying capacities.
Talk soon.
Tom
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Constructive criticism and realistic dialogue about how to improve is always welcome.
Again - the Newport is the biggest and heaviest floor plan we build with the least amount of carrying capacity. All other LM365 floor plans will have increased carrying capacities.
Talk soon.
Tom
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kakampers
Past Heartland Ambassador
Tom....with all due respect, Jim does not keep his demo coaches as long as the rest of us. Mine was five years old with close to 80k miles on the running gear when the hanger sheared off. In addition, none of us have the benefit of yearly inspection/repairs done by the manufacturer that Jim is afforded either.
Sorry if you feel our input is not constructive. However, it was asked for and we told you what we as full timers feel is most important. JMHO.
Sorry if you feel our input is not constructive. However, it was asked for and we told you what we as full timers feel is most important. JMHO.
MTPockets
Well-known member
. That's good news. Any comments regarding shorter LM365?
T
TomMontague
Guest
The first four floor plans are our biggest - then I will release ( with everyone's input ) 3 more floor plans from 36-39 feet long and once those are out we will then have one or two 34-36 footers. Hopefully something for everyone and carrying capacity shouldn't be an issue with the models coming ... Hope this helps.
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T
TomMontague
Guest
Ok - now I have an idea of what people are talkin about. I was still selling Montana's for Keystone when you bought your rig. 5 years ago was even before I started Redwood.
I cant speak for how the Landmark used to be built. I can tell you that today - I'm using the best products available to me at an affordable price point most can afford. Meaning I know MOR-Ryde IS is probably the best suspension we could use but most people don't pay the money for the upgrade. ( we do have a coupon for those who want to upgrade )
I dont disagree that Jim gets new equipment more than most. He also inspects his rig more than most before traveling. He is responsible for upkeep and maintenance on his rig. If he has something go wrong - most of the time a dealer fixes his issue - unless his travels bring him near the factory.
Yearly inspections and visual inspections before each trip are a must. Tire pressure is another key to successful longevity of your rig. I'm pulling a 2004 bass boat and trailer all across the country - my last trip was 1700 miles. I inspected the bearings and axles at every gas fill-up. I'm not saying we have the perfect set-up and you'll never have issues - I'm saying we use the best of the best at a reasonable price and between our construction and your attention to detail it should last you a long time.
Hope this helps.
Thanks
Tom
I cant speak for how the Landmark used to be built. I can tell you that today - I'm using the best products available to me at an affordable price point most can afford. Meaning I know MOR-Ryde IS is probably the best suspension we could use but most people don't pay the money for the upgrade. ( we do have a coupon for those who want to upgrade )
I dont disagree that Jim gets new equipment more than most. He also inspects his rig more than most before traveling. He is responsible for upkeep and maintenance on his rig. If he has something go wrong - most of the time a dealer fixes his issue - unless his travels bring him near the factory.
Yearly inspections and visual inspections before each trip are a must. Tire pressure is another key to successful longevity of your rig. I'm pulling a 2004 bass boat and trailer all across the country - my last trip was 1700 miles. I inspected the bearings and axles at every gas fill-up. I'm not saying we have the perfect set-up and you'll never have issues - I'm saying we use the best of the best at a reasonable price and between our construction and your attention to detail it should last you a long time.
Hope this helps.
Thanks
Tom
kakampers
Past Heartland Ambassador
Jim can attest to the fact that pretty much no one crawls under their rig and inspects more than I do...that's how I caught broken springs, bad tires, etc. But, no offense, I see absolutely NO difference in the frame and hangers, etc. on the current Landmark than was on my 2008 Bighorn, or on my 2013 Landmark...which is why we opted to have IS installed immediately. Had no intention of going through the hanger issue again...
Fact is, Lippert has known about this hanger issue for years...they actually had a LIP sheet for the required repairs when cracks/tears appeared above the axles, which is what they did on our Bighorn. Luckily for us the hanger sheared before we had appreciable tears in the I Beam.
To me it just seems that if manufacturers really expected longevity from the units they sell, especially those for full time use, as the Landmark is marketed, there would be suspension parts that were sturdier than what is being offered...again, JMHO.
Fact is, Lippert has known about this hanger issue for years...they actually had a LIP sheet for the required repairs when cracks/tears appeared above the axles, which is what they did on our Bighorn. Luckily for us the hanger sheared before we had appreciable tears in the I Beam.
To me it just seems that if manufacturers really expected longevity from the units they sell, especially those for full time use, as the Landmark is marketed, there would be suspension parts that were sturdier than what is being offered...again, JMHO.
