Pinbox Frame Flex (Again) in So. Ca.

[JeepingJason]

3/4 inch isn't much. Keep an eye on it. If you are not the 1st owner, Heartland probably WON'T do the repair for free. Either way it would be at their Elkhart, In. factory ONLY. Call Heartland service with your VIN if in doubt - maybe the previous owner (if any) had this fixed.

Newer Bighorns (2010 and later?) have a more gradual curve to the sides at the front storage compartment, then do the older Bighorns with right angle sides. But this is all about additional FRONT pinbox framing bracing, not the side near the bed slide like I just had problems with. I think that this near slide load bearing distance is very small, but looking at other 5th wheels most of them has this narrow gap. A few brands have about double the gap, though.

BTW, my sister got through her knee replacement, and has no recurrent signs of the breast cancer. Thanks for all the caring and prayers from the Heartland community!!!

Thanks for the info. .glad to hear your sister is doing better... danny

 

[wdk450]

About 6 months post repair, the cracks in the fiberglass are now as bad as they were before I took the rig in for repair.

As I understand it now, they should have repaired the steel frame UNDER the aluminum plate (that sits under the fiberglass), not just weld and bridge the aluminum plate as they did. Correct??? They also should have addressed the underlying issues (metal repair) under the crack at the top rear of the bedroom slide. I think they just did fiberglass repair there.

I think I will contact Heartland service for repair guidance. I KNOW I have seen a few other posts from owners with upper rear of the bedroom slide cracking, but I don't think I have seen any from owners with lower front of the bedroom major cracking like mine.

 

[Bones]

About 6 months post repair, the cracks in the fiberglass are now as bad as they were before I took the rig in for repair.

As I understand it now, they should have repaired the steel frame UNDER the aluminum plate (that sits under the fiberglass), not just weld and bridge the aluminum plate as they did. Correct??? They also should have addressed the underlying issues (metal repair) under the crack at the top rear of the bedroom slide. I think they just did fiberglass repair there.

I think I will contact Heartland service for repair guidance. I KNOW I have seen a few other posts from owners with upper rear of the bedroom slide cracking, but I don't think I have seen any from owners with lower front of the bedroom major cracking like mine.

Yes I think it is time for a more intrusive investigation as to the root cause of the cracks. Something is flexing a lot.

 

[StrongJava]

Hi Bill--

Our framing issue has also returned. We took our 2008 Bighorn to factory in March 2015 for repairs. Within a few months, cracking started along the seam where they replaced the fiberglass on the right side. A crack also developed at the corner of the bedroom slide. I opted to monitor them; they've gotten worse. On Friday I contacted Heartland and I will be sending them measurements.

Last night I was talking with a friend who helped a guy take measurements on a 2011 Bighorn for similar issues. He also knows of two others who have had to return to Elkhart THREE times to get this fixed. He also indicated Heartland paid for their return each time; I believe this is appropriate, and will be asking for compensation this time.

This is a class problem, and I suggest we share information until we all find out what works, and we can get these repaired once and for all. I want to continue making upgrades to our home on wheels.

Tim

About 6 months post repair, the cracks in the fiberglass are now as bad as they were before I took the rig in for repair.

As I understand it now, they should have repaired the steel frame UNDER the aluminum plate (that sits under the fiberglass), not just weld and bridge the aluminum plate as they did. Correct??? They also should have addressed the underlying issues (metal repair) under the crack at the top rear of the bedroom slide. I think they just did fiberglass repair there.

I think I will contact Heartland service for repair guidance. I KNOW I have seen a few other posts from owners with upper rear of the bedroom slide cracking, but I don't think I have seen any from owners with lower front of the bedroom major cracking like mine.

 

[wdk450]

Hi Bill--

Our framing issue has also returned. We took our 2008 Bighorn to factory in March 2015 for repairs. Within a few months, cracking started along the seam where they replaced the fiberglass on the right side. A crack also developed at the corner of the bedroom slide. I opted to monitor them; they've gotten worse. On Friday I contacted Heartland and I will be sending them measurements.

Last night I was talking with a friend who helped a guy take measurements on a 2011 Bighorn for similar issues. He also knows of two others who have had to return to Elkhart THREE times to get this fixed. He also indicated Heartland paid for their return each time; I believe this is appropriate, and will be asking for compensation this time.

This is a class problem, and I suggest we share information until we all find out what works, and we can get these repaired once and for all. I want to continue making upgrades to our home on wheels.

Tim

Thanks, Tim

I thought I would attach a few photos from when the metal was exposed for the "repair" last summer. This first one, a bottom view, shows that the crack does not go into the structural steel, at least at this point.


The next two shows the crack in the aluminum side structure under the wood panel and fiberglass.


I am considering securing a thin metal patch over the cracks with aviation grade epoxy (2400 psi shear strength).

 

[StrongJava]

Holy cow, Bill. I'm shocked the aluminum structure broke. That really doesn't seem right.

To be clear, are you now facing the 3rd time you've had issues?

Just talked with the owner of 2012 Landmark, purchased new, who just had a catastrophic failure of his framing along the side up front. Lucky for him, there was a mobile Lippert team nearby that was waiting for parts (or something) and they were able to take things apart and make repairs on the spot.

I took measurements today to send to Heartland. The measurement from the front corner of the frame by the landing gear to the rear corner of the king pin box show minimal difference off or on the trailer. But, I am seeing considerable movement (3/4") between the top of the king pin and the fiberglass, and a bit of movement if I measure from the front of the king pin (shoulder) down to the landing gear. I think this is causing my cracks.

Tim

 

[JAY.BIRDSONG]

I have a 2010 Bighorn 3580RL. The last time I towed it any distance was near the end of July 2016. That was a trip from Pensacola, Fl. to Kerrville Tx. I noticed when I hooked up that there was a little separation with the caulk and the side wall along the bottom of the trim piece up on the fifth wheel area. It widened slightly on that trip but nothing real alarming. The trailer has been stationary since we got here, with the exception of moving it less than a mile on two separate occasions in Dec. My wife and I live in this rig full time.
When I hooked up last Thursday to travel to the Houston RV show, I noticed the separation was more noticeable. I checked on it at each stop we made and by the time we arrived in Houston, the gap had widened to 1/4". Very noticeable now. That was on the drivers side. The passenger side was at 1/8". I will try to attach pictures of this to this thread. My question to the forum is this: Is this something to be concerned about and if so how should I proceed to have the issue resolved. It appears to me that I am not the only one to have some issues in this area from what I have read thus far. Okay looks like I may not be able to attach photos at this time. Hopefully I can upload pictures of what I am referring to soon. It will be more clear once you can view my pictures. Jay

 

[carl.swoyer]

I believe that the crack required a solid weld and stronger metal gussets should be added to reduce flexibility

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[LBR]

I have a 2010 Bighorn 3580RL. The last time I towed it any distance was near the end of July 2016. That was a trip from Pensacola, Fl. to Kerrville Tx. I noticed when I hooked up that there was a little separation with the caulk and the side wall along the bottom of the trim piece up on the fifth wheel area. It widened slightly on that trip but nothing real alarming. The trailer has been stationary since we got here, with the exception of moving it less than a mile on two separate occasions in Dec. My wife and I live in this rig full time.
When I hooked up last Thursday to travel to the Houston RV show, I noticed the separation was more noticeable. I checked on it at each stop we made and by the time we arrived in Houston, the gap had widened to 1/4". Very noticeable now. That was on the drivers side. The passenger side was at 1/8". I will try to attach pictures of this to this thread. My question to the forum is this: Is this something to be concerned about and if so how should I proceed to have the issue resolved. It appears to me that I am not the only one to have some issues in this area from what I have read thus far. Okay looks like I may not be able to attach photos at this time. Hopefully I can upload pictures of what I am referring to soon. It will be more clear once you can view my pictures. Jay

(You will need a couple more posts before ability to add pictures)

 

[mlpeloquin]

I believe that the crack required a solid weld and stronger metal gussets should be added to reduce flexibility

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Just be aware that gussets will stiffen and strengthen the area where they are put, but at the same time shift where the stress will be applied. If it is the week area where the front slide is, then there should not be a problem.

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks, Tim

I thought I would attach a few photos from when the metal was exposed for the "repair" last summer. This first one, a bottom view, shows that the crack does not go into the structural steel, at least at this point.
View attachment 49824

The next two shows the crack in the aluminum side structure under the wood panel and fiberglass.
View attachment 49830View attachment 49831

I am considering securing a thin metal patch over the cracks with aviation grade epoxy (2400 psi shear strength).

The pictures shows poor welds. It is know wonder why they closed your rig up prior to you picking it up. Seen many a good aluminum welds both whne I work for GE Nuclear Division and a military contractor. Who ever did this could not be a certified welder. The welds should be smooth and clean with no gaps. Looks like it was surfaced tacked and ground down.

 

[StrongJava]

Marc,

Were your frame issues with your current rig? Or, an older one?

Tim

Just be aware that gussets will stiffen and strengthen the area where they are put, but at the same time shift where the stress will be applied. If it is the week area where the front slide is, then there should not be a problem.

- - - Updated - - -



The pictures shows poor welds. It is know wonder why they closed your rig up prior to you picking it up. Seen many a good aluminum welds both whne I work for GE Nuclear Division and a military contractor. Who ever did this could not be a certified welder. The welds should be smooth and clean with no gaps. Looks like it was surfaced tacked and ground down.

 

[JAY.BIRDSONG]

Thank you to all that have responded to this thread. I have been in touch with Dean at Heartland this morning and he has requested pictures of the issues I am experiencing. I have sent him my VIN. number and the photos he requested and the measurements which I have recorded and shared with him on the phone. Will try to keep you posted of any new I get back from them. Jay

 

[mlpeloquin]

Marc,

Were your frame issues with your current rig? Or, an older one?

Tim

Current one, but mine had the heads shear off the fasteners that held the two frames together. I have put a lot of miles since and so far so good. I changed the king pin to the Trailair Flex Air hitch. This eliminated the shock being transferred to the frame fasteners. When it was fixed they increased the gauge of the fasteners and doubled up on them.

 

[carl.swoyer]

Along with additional stronger gussets you need to add extra welds along the edges of the frame structure, where two beams meet.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[JAY.BIRDSONG]

The latest news I have is this: I was emailed a form that requested specific measurements from the "I" beam at the bottom front of the trailer up to the point where the pin box is welded to the 2"X6" rectangular tube. The flex I reported was 3/8" on the off door side and 5/16" on the door side of the coach. I have been told verbally that Heartland agrees that they need to get it up to their facility and have the necessary work done to correct this issue. The verbal information shared with me informed me that the service department would cut open the walls so they can add more aluminum studs and wood and re-laminate with more glue and longer screws to beef up the wall structure and the attachment area to the steel frame and then Lippert would add gussets and other bracing etc. on the steel frame (which is their frame). I emailed Heartland this morning to see how we proceed from here and the reply was that all my information is being forwarded to management to get final approval and once they do that then transportation of the unit would be discussed and finally service would schedule an appointment. I will try to add pictures of my rig showing exactly what is happening.

After reading some of your posts where you have already had the rig back to the manufacturer and you are having problems again, confirms my fear that it is extremely difficult to adequately reinforce the neck area once the rest of the coach has been built around it. I do applaud Heartland for their willingness to work with us the customer to try to fix these issues. It is just very unfortunate that these structural issues arose in the first place.

Jay

P.S. The pictures showing the tape measure was taken with the trailer hooked up to my truck. And the measurements referenced above was the difference (flex) of when the trailer weight was on the landing gear and when the weight was on the hitch pin. The measurement grew by 3/8 and 5/16 of an inch. Jay

 

[StrongJava]

You are seeing separation on both sides when you load the trailer on the truck?

I have made a second request to speak with Tom Montague about these issues, and the path forward. No response from him, yet.

Tim

The latest news I have is this: I was emailed a form that requested specific measurements from the "I" beam at the bottom front of the trailer up to the point where the pin box is welded to the 2"X6" rectangular tube. The flex I reported was 3/8" on the off door side and 5/16" on the door side of the coach. I have been told verbally that Heartland agrees that they need to get it up to their facility and have the necessary work done to correct this issue. The verbal information shared with me informed me that the service department would cut open the walls so they can add more aluminum studs and wood and re-laminate with more glue and longer screws to beef up the wall structure and the attachment area to the steel frame and then Lippert would add gussets and other bracing etc. on the steel frame (which is their frame). I emailed Heartland this morning to see how we proceed from here and the reply was that all my information is being forwarded to management to get final approval and once they do that then transportation of the unit would be discussed and finally service would schedule an appointment. I will try to add pictures of my rig showing exactly what is happening.

After reading some of your posts where you have already had the rig back to the manufacturer and you are having problems again, confirms my fear that it is extremely difficult to adequately reinforce the neck area once the rest of the coach has been built around it. I do applaud Heartland for their willingness to work with us the customer to try to fix these issues. It is just very unfortunate that these structural issues arose in the first place.

Jay

P.S. The pictures showing the tape measure was taken with the trailer hooked up to my truck. And the measurements referenced above was the difference (flex) of when the trailer weight was on the landing gear and when the weight was on the hitch pin. The measurement grew by 3/8 and 5/16 of an inch. Jay

 

[danemayer]

I have made a second request to speak with Tom Montague about these issues, and the path forward. No response from him, yet.

Tim

Tim,

I'm sure Tom's Bighorn focus over the past year that he's had that responsibility has been oriented toward having the most competitive 2018 models anyone could imagine.

Not sure what path forward you expect to discuss with him with respect to 10 year old coaches.

 

[StrongJava]

He is a person of reasonably senior position in the company with decision making authority who has vested interest in the Bighorn brand. Service reps are not. They're helpful, and I appreciate that, but it isn't fair to keep poking them and to make requests of them they don't have the authority to address.

If you have a suggestion/contact information for another senior position with decision making authority at Heartland, that would be great.

Thanks.

Tim

Tim,

I'm sure Tom's Bighorn focus over the past year that he's had that responsibility has been oriented toward having the most competitive 2018 models anyone could imagine.

Not sure what path forward you expect to discuss with him with respect to 10 year old coaches.

 

[JAY.BIRDSONG]

Yes that is correct that I am getting separation on both sides when hooked onto the truck. The separation on the side walls coincide with the measurements taken as requested from the "I" beam up to the pin box. The 3/8 of an inch gain is on the same side that has a 1/4" gap at the sidewall. The 5/16" gain on the door side is only 1/8" separation at the sidewall right now.

In regards to Tim trying to talk to a decision maker at Heartland: I too would like to see information relating to the engineering regarding the attempt at correcting this issue. This in part stems from the fact that several owners are seeing issues after it has been "repaired" by Heartland once before. I am not an engineer however I have worked closely with structural steel engineers over the years and have above average amount of welding and steel fabrication experience including building my own trailers. The bottom line is one needs to be confident in what they propose as the solution that it is going to work or you scrap it all together as hard as that is to do sometime. In regards to the age of the unit, the rest of the trailer should fall apart before the "foundation" does. Unless it has been subjected to road salt or ocean air that has caused physical deterioration in the steel or other physical undue stress.

That's my two cents worth anyway. And please be advised It is in no way my intentions to offend or insult anyone on this site or elsewhere. I think we can all agree that we just want to have the confidence when towing down the road that the trailer is going to stay with the truck.

Jay

 

[danemayer]

From what I've seen on the forum, most (not all) of these frame problems are on older coaches (pre-2011). It's not about how old the coach is - it's about the design at that time.

I think Lippert beefed things up some years ago - I'd guess maybe back in 2010. And Heartland has stood behind these older coaches even though they're often long out of warranty.

If you want to discuss structural design choices going back to 2008 or 2009, or why someone's coach has had repeat failures, I think you'd need to find a frame engineer. And to get a really good answer, it'll probably have to be a Lippert frame engineer. Responsible decision makers at Heartland don't necessarily have the skills and knowledge for the discussion you may want.