Same in Florida.......Don
How Necessary is a Weapon?
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Same in Florida.......Don
JohnDar
Prolifically Gabby Member
There is no "duty to retreat" from my place of residence in Michigan, either. In my house, in the middle of the night, I'd have to jump out a second floor window to do that. And how feasible would it be for you to try and escape via the emergency exits in your rig when some mutt breaks in?
Lynn1130
Well-known member
Scott's observations are correct. On another thread dealing with CCW and protection I posted from the LE point of view having done that for 35 years, including tactical instruction, range officer, administrator over use of force and shooting review and having been involved in more than one situation on the street where it was necessary to escalate to the deadly force level. I am not writing this to talk down to anyone but I do have to chuckle a little at those who say they would do this or do that if they were threatened. Saying it and doing it are worlds apart and I have seen one or two well trained LE people freeze up in life or death situations. I have also seen some who suffered severe PTSD after shootings involving them, and or their fellow officers when they were the backup and did not fire their weapon.
Shooting a paper targets is not tactical training without some mental training and prep to go with it. Any shoot or don't shoot training needs to include some high stress shooting house time. But that still is not real life (or death). Shooting to kill someone takes hours of mental prep work and many months of debrief and mental repair afterward. You never get over it. It always pops back up in your mind and sometimes at the strangest times. Unless you are a psychopath it will be there for life. Add to that the fact that you will be investigated, questioned, second guessed, questioned again, and again and perhaps criminally charged if some county attorney thinks you messed up. And even if you are not charged you can bet that you will be sued by the family of the person you shot.
So, my recommendation is simple. If you like carrying a gun be mentally and physically prepared to use it and to deal with the consequences that will follow. If any little thing nags in the back of your mind about how you might react buy some bear spray, even the small size that you can carry on your belt.
Shooting a paper targets is not tactical training without some mental training and prep to go with it. Any shoot or don't shoot training needs to include some high stress shooting house time. But that still is not real life (or death). Shooting to kill someone takes hours of mental prep work and many months of debrief and mental repair afterward. You never get over it. It always pops back up in your mind and sometimes at the strangest times. Unless you are a psychopath it will be there for life. Add to that the fact that you will be investigated, questioned, second guessed, questioned again, and again and perhaps criminally charged if some county attorney thinks you messed up. And even if you are not charged you can bet that you will be sued by the family of the person you shot.
So, my recommendation is simple. If you like carrying a gun be mentally and physically prepared to use it and to deal with the consequences that will follow. If any little thing nags in the back of your mind about how you might react buy some bear spray, even the small size that you can carry on your belt.
Doublegranch
Mountain Region Director-Retired
I certainly agree with Lnn’s comments. While I don’t post on site topics of this nature, I feel it is important to relate a few thoughts. My past includes Infantry in Viet Nam, as I was part of a search and destroy team. Lynn’s comments about PTSD are very valid as things continue to haunt me and its over 40 years now. I also was with the LASO for 10 years, patrolling 6 contract cities in Los Angeles.
For those of you posting macho comments and which guns to use etc, You really need to think about posting comments on an open forum. Whether you actually have to participate in an altercation, your past and posted comments can do you some serious damage. You are expressing intent, posting it on line prior to any altercation, so anyone can review, cut and paste and save your comments for presenting in a court situation. You know open forums are monitored and not just by the forum monitors! You need to be careful about bragging, posting and accelerating these type of posts.
These are just a few thoughts to think about. Continue if you may, just know more people than you think are reading and once it’s posted, it is on the internet forever! Any good search of your IP address, internet provider will show everything you have done, said and posted. You are making it easy for the opposition to have a field day with your life and financially security.
For those of you posting macho comments and which guns to use etc, You really need to think about posting comments on an open forum. Whether you actually have to participate in an altercation, your past and posted comments can do you some serious damage. You are expressing intent, posting it on line prior to any altercation, so anyone can review, cut and paste and save your comments for presenting in a court situation. You know open forums are monitored and not just by the forum monitors! You need to be careful about bragging, posting and accelerating these type of posts.
These are just a few thoughts to think about. Continue if you may, just know more people than you think are reading and once it’s posted, it is on the internet forever! Any good search of your IP address, internet provider will show everything you have done, said and posted. You are making it easy for the opposition to have a field day with your life and financially security.
Rving_Angels
Member
GREAT analogies, GREAT facts, and Well Said. Thank You Scott.
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
Ditto, what they said.
I'm putting my money where my keystrokes are. I'm going non-lethal. This thread has been very informative, and this has convinced me that non-lethal will cover me well enough. Perhaps even better than lethal since the most likely scenario of a threat against me would not rise to the use of deadly force to begin with.
Almost all self defense instruction will state in the beginning, that you should limit your exposure to situations where an assault is likely.
I'm putting my money where my keystrokes are. I'm going non-lethal. This thread has been very informative, and this has convinced me that non-lethal will cover me well enough. Perhaps even better than lethal since the most likely scenario of a threat against me would not rise to the use of deadly force to begin with.
Almost all self defense instruction will state in the beginning, that you should limit your exposure to situations where an assault is likely.
Those of us from up north, running with Canadian plates, come down south in large numbers for the winter. We're obviously not armed due to our laws and culture, but I'm not aware of any Canadians being specially targeted by criminals because they know that we don't "carry". We've always felt safe in the US and just take the obvious precautions when travelling or when out and about.
If you look at crime stats, serious crime is on the decline but is well reported nowadays. This along with my thinking that as we get older we adopt more pessimistic outlooks, makes crime appear to be getting worse. One of my biggest concerns is with old people in RV parks with guns and not being able to react properly to a threat or, more likely, to overreact to a perceived threat.
We'll continue to come south and enjoy Texas winters with our US friends.
If you look at crime stats, serious crime is on the decline but is well reported nowadays. This along with my thinking that as we get older we adopt more pessimistic outlooks, makes crime appear to be getting worse. One of my biggest concerns is with old people in RV parks with guns and not being able to react properly to a threat or, more likely, to overreact to a perceived threat.
We'll continue to come south and enjoy Texas winters with our US friends.
JanAndBill
Well-known member
Being a member of the "older" generation, I tend to forget how much privacy we give up every day on the internet. A good point, that all should head.
Lynn1130
Well-known member
Bill,
One of our sheriffs in Arizona (the one that makes his prisoners wear pink underwear) spends most of his time speaking at functions in retirement communities and scaring the **** out of the senior crowd by telling them that they are all going to be victims and he is there to protect them. It works because he keeps getting elected and they love him but his bluster is mostly BS. But then, according to him, he has reduced crime in Sun City
One of our sheriffs in Arizona (the one that makes his prisoners wear pink underwear) spends most of his time speaking at functions in retirement communities and scaring the **** out of the senior crowd by telling them that they are all going to be victims and he is there to protect them. It works because he keeps getting elected and they love him but his bluster is mostly BS. But then, according to him, he has reduced crime in Sun City
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
I have been re-reading the thread. It is very interesting, we have had a very informative discussion on here. There appears to be at least 3 LEO's at least two of which were firearms instructors, perhaps all three, and a couple of Veterans and former military.
I stated a few comments back that I was finished with the thread, but I don't think you can ever be finished with this thread, it is a topic that has risen to the top in our nation and for good reason. It only makes sense that it is probably the number one topic on the forum.
With a career in LE and at least 10 years as an firearms instructor both at the station level and academy level, I can tell you that I have learned a lot from this thread. I have reaffirmed some of my knowledge, and also gotten a refresher on things that I once knew and had forgot. Thanks to all of you, the other LEO's and EMT.
This thread is worth reading from beginning to end for anyone contemplating carrying a weapon to defend himself/herself while traveling. There is argument here, and that is good, no information is worthy without both sides. In this thread there are comments that range from those that would not defend themselves at all, there are those that would defend themselves but do not believe there is a threat, and on and on until we arrived at non lethal defense techniques.
If you are reading this for the first time, take some time and go to the first comment and read every post. You will gain great insight into the issue.
I stated a few comments back that I was finished with the thread, but I don't think you can ever be finished with this thread, it is a topic that has risen to the top in our nation and for good reason. It only makes sense that it is probably the number one topic on the forum.
With a career in LE and at least 10 years as an firearms instructor both at the station level and academy level, I can tell you that I have learned a lot from this thread. I have reaffirmed some of my knowledge, and also gotten a refresher on things that I once knew and had forgot. Thanks to all of you, the other LEO's and EMT.
This thread is worth reading from beginning to end for anyone contemplating carrying a weapon to defend himself/herself while traveling. There is argument here, and that is good, no information is worthy without both sides. In this thread there are comments that range from those that would not defend themselves at all, there are those that would defend themselves but do not believe there is a threat, and on and on until we arrived at non lethal defense techniques.
If you are reading this for the first time, take some time and go to the first comment and read every post. You will gain great insight into the issue.
I am going to reply to some of the comments made after my last post.
Bill I agree with most of what your saying , and yes there are different levels of threat , but there is no difference in the amount of trouble you will face whether you were justified in your actions or not , the amount of money it will cost you and your family will be staggering not to mention what will happen if your victim lives after you shoot him . You face civil liability and are going to rely on 12 people that may not see things your way !
Florida is a Stand your ground state..they say it cost Zimmerman more than 3 million dollars to prove his innocence , and that kid died . Imagine if he had just been gut shot and lived ! Bill you said you wouldn't consider legal consequences if faced with this situation , but you **** sure better just for the reasons I mentioned . Now knowing that you face even more trouble if your victim is alive after you shoot him , are you willing to walk up and finish him in front of your family ?
Someone brought up the fellow I mentioned that was convicted for shooting the two that broke into his house . They deserved exactly what they got in my view , he did not go hunting for them , he waited for them to break into his house for a third time and did exactly what he should have done . Remember those 12 jurors I talked about in my last paragraph ..they didnt see it that way ! And now this man is in prison for what many of us think was justified.
I am a smart enough guy to know that not everyone looks at things the same in life , nor this subject but I challenge anyone to claim I am wrong in my view of the social and political climate we are living in !
Hope everyone has a great Columbus Day ..Scott
Bill I agree with most of what your saying , and yes there are different levels of threat , but there is no difference in the amount of trouble you will face whether you were justified in your actions or not , the amount of money it will cost you and your family will be staggering not to mention what will happen if your victim lives after you shoot him . You face civil liability and are going to rely on 12 people that may not see things your way !
Florida is a Stand your ground state..they say it cost Zimmerman more than 3 million dollars to prove his innocence , and that kid died . Imagine if he had just been gut shot and lived ! Bill you said you wouldn't consider legal consequences if faced with this situation , but you **** sure better just for the reasons I mentioned . Now knowing that you face even more trouble if your victim is alive after you shoot him , are you willing to walk up and finish him in front of your family ?
Someone brought up the fellow I mentioned that was convicted for shooting the two that broke into his house . They deserved exactly what they got in my view , he did not go hunting for them , he waited for them to break into his house for a third time and did exactly what he should have done . Remember those 12 jurors I talked about in my last paragraph ..they didnt see it that way ! And now this man is in prison for what many of us think was justified.
I am a smart enough guy to know that not everyone looks at things the same in life , nor this subject but I challenge anyone to claim I am wrong in my view of the social and political climate we are living in !
Hope everyone has a great Columbus Day ..Scott
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
I like Joe Arpaio. (Sheriff Joe). The orange prison jump suits are washed with the whites, they fade their color and everything comes out pink. LOL. Hey it appeals to me more than providing sexchange operatons for these jailbirds. If they don't like it they should make the effort to stay out of jail.
JohnDar
Prolifically Gabby Member
Seems like we're now being told to run and hide behind the hollow core door of our bathroom, wait for the PD to arrive (if we were able to call them) and hope the intruder(s) don't find us. The bathroom would be a good hiding place. That way you can be sure not to soil yourself before help arrives, if it does.
Pretty high stakes wager to gamble that someone that breaks into your abode (while you're in it) has your best intentions in mind.
Pretty high stakes wager to gamble that someone that breaks into your abode (while you're in it) has your best intentions in mind.
wyleyrabbit
Well-known member
Yes, and all of them will be better trained and better armed than any of us would be.
Lynn1130
Well-known member
Good for you Trace and just make sure you choose the right one so we don't have to send you a cake with a hacksaw blade in it. But then the Manson family is in jail right now anyway.
From what all I have read here there are comments with a great amount of experience and training and people making suggestions. We can each make our own decisions. I still carry but I also have pepper spray and depending upon the circumstances will work up the use of force continuum as appropriate. If the bad guy jumps to deadly force then I follow quickly.
From what all I have read here there are comments with a great amount of experience and training and people making suggestions. We can each make our own decisions. I still carry but I also have pepper spray and depending upon the circumstances will work up the use of force continuum as appropriate. If the bad guy jumps to deadly force then I follow quickly.
talley
Well-known member
Fully agree with Doubleranch that we should be aware of the image we may be creating of ourselves and our "mind-set". My personal position regarding the intent in any use of lethal force is to stop the illegal threat of death or serious bodily injury.... not "shoot to kill". Now it may well be that the result of my defensive use of my firearm and the "center mass" targeting is the killing of the aggressor; my intent was only to stop the immediate threat. And those are the words that I will use to explain my action. These are terms that I had incorporated into my law enforcement training lesson plans. Any use of firearm (by civilian or police) will result in an investigation along with an assessment of the intent and reasonableness of the use of a weapon. A key issue will be "what would a reasonable person have done under the same circumstance".
Jim.Allison
Well-known member
The Canada statement is not accurate. You may pass through Canada with long guns if you declare them. You may not enter Canada with pepper spray, but you may purchase bear spray in Canada.
Not quite.
I have at one point had to check my shotgun at the border.
Picked it up on my way home.
Seems that it is at the discretion of the person allowing you to cross over.
Peace
Dave
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