How Necessary is a Weapon?

[Jim.Allison]

Were you towing?

I do not want to hog this thread, but this is a most important subject for those that carry. It is imperative that your self defense weapon be the most innocuous looking weapon you can get. It needs to look like grandpas pistol, or shotgun. laser sights, bone handgrips, conchos, and engraving is out of the question. If you ever have to use it, a prosecuting attorney in a criminal case and/or the plaintiffs attorney will make a lot of hay out of the appearance of your weapon and the ammo you use. If you have a modified 1911 with laser grips and bone handles and your loaded with Hornady Zombie Killers, you got big problems. You need a common handgun and common bullets such as Winchester 230 grain hollow points. Common, everything common as if you never expected in your wildest dreams that you would have to use grandpas gun to defend yourself. Don't even use "law enforcement round" there is nothing special about them anyway and you will be accused of being a cowboy vigilante sheriff because you have them. This is serious business, cops don't even carry anything but what departments issue them because of this point. My guns look like grandpas old guns or a hunting shotgun. My 1911 is just exactly the way it came from the factory.

Was stopped a few month ago in mi. I was going 80 in construction zone that was 60. He gave me a impeding traffic ticket. After he he made out the ticket he told my I should start carring my S W 38 with laser grips. Just thought it was odd, like, does he know something I don't.

 

[danemayer]

Pepper Spray is lawful in all 50 states and is not classified as a weapon under federal law. How ever there are subtle differences in laws between the states. ergo my statement, "when you are forced to use it" leave right away dont wait for the cops.

Further reading on the subject here. And if caught later, I wonder how a prosecutor would characterize you having fled the scene.

 

[Jim.Allison]

If you are concerned, about the concentration and volume of your pepper spray, you should invert the canister and empty the entire contents into the atmosphere and safely discard the canister prior to entering the state in question.

As far as fleeing, since when is it against the law to leave a place where you have been in an altercation, or you have been assaulted? It is against the law to leave the scene of an accident for obvious reasons. But not likely against the law to leave a place where you have been assaulted.

Further reading on the subject here. And if caught later, I wonder how a prosecutor would characterize you having fled the scene.

 

[danemayer]

If you are concerned, about the concentration and volume of your pepper spray, you should invert the canister and empty the entire contents into the atmosphere and safely discard the canister prior to entering the state in question.

As far as fleeing, since when is it against the law to leave a place where you have been in an altercation, or you have been assaulted? It is against the law to leave the scene of an accident for obvious reasons. But not likely against the law to leave a place where you have been assaulted.

- Bear spray - illegal to use on humans in some places - maybe everywhere.
- The other party will always claim that you were the aggressor.
- The other party will argue that knowing you had broken the law, you fled the scene to escape justice.
- The other party will argue that before there was any altercation, you decided to bring the bear spray with you as you left your vehicle, demonstrating you intended to attack.

- Your defense: you left your vehicle to calmly discuss something with the other party, and simply had the bear spray in your hand in case a bear suddenly approached.

$$$$

 

[dave10a]

Gawd--- it is amazing how things get convoluted in these posts.....

 

[TandT]

Gawd--- it is amazing how things get convoluted in these posts.....

I agree. For me, I guess what all of this boils down to is this;
If a situation can not be defused any other way and I feel mine or my loved one's life is in danger, I am going to use whatever means is available to save the folks near and dear to me. Trace

 

[porthole]

Further reading on the subject here. And if caught later, I wonder how a prosecutor would characterize you having fled the scene.

In New Jersey, the law that protects the criminals from the victims is a "duty to retreat"

Things are a bit different for us.

 

[Jim.Allison]

Ditto x 2. That is called escalation of force. Deploying the appropriate weapon/defense method to meet the threat.

I agree. For me, I guess what all of this boils down to is this;
If a situation can not be defused any other way and I feel mine or my loved one's life is in danger, I am going to use whatever means is available, to save the folks near and dear to me. Trace

 

[Jim.Allison]

I never thought I would encounter an argument against a non lethal defense mechanism in favor of a firearm. This is my last post on this subject and it is largely a response to your post. It is my last post on the subject.

You are assuming that I did not have the bear spray to use on trails where wild animals are known to attack, and it was the only thing I had, and or I did not have the Kimber pepper gun or a 1 oz can. The use of a baseball bat on humans is illegal also, but it is a defense that you used it to protect yourself because it was the only weapon available.

You are assuming that I got out of my vehicle to confront a subject and was not taking a leak at a roadside park, or fueling at a station.

Fleeing the scene is not the term, leaving the scene of a dangerous thug who threatened me and/or family and property is the term, you leave the scene to avoid shooting an aggressor or furthering the altercation and for your safety (notify the cops if you want) I won't unless it is appropriate, I'm also familiar with the inner working of police so I have an advantage over you there.

The other party will always argue that you were the aggressor whether you defended yourself or not, that is the nature of thugs they will claim it while you lay in the hospital it is rare that a criminal will try to press charges as you can press charges as well.

You can argue this to the nth degree, it does not change anything.

My comments are about the use of a non lethal device vs a lethal one. It is a forgone conclusion for me that I will defend myself against an aggressor no matter what, and non lethal is my choice UNLESS I have to escalate the use of force.

Misdemeanor charges against me are not going to stop me from defending myself, I will pay the fines if need be. The need to actually defend yourself is remote but at the same time violence is omnipresent in our society. Violence is only prevented by the aggressor thinking he may be shot, actually I dont even need a weapon as long as criminals think that I MIGHT have a weapon.

We can agree to disagree on the subject of defending oneself in the "off chance" that one must accomplish that task. For me, I don't cut and run unless it is a strategic decision that advances my defense plan, you can bet I will do it if it is best. It is a tactical error on my opponents behalf to attempt to assault me to begin with.

- Bear spray - illegal to use on humans in some places - maybe everywhere.
- The other party will always claim that you were the aggressor.
- The other party will argue that knowing you had broken the law, you fled the scene to escape justice.
- The other party will argue that before there was any altercation, you decided to bring the bear spray with you as you left your vehicle, demonstrating you intended to attack.

- Your defense: you left your vehicle to calmly discuss something with the other party, and simply had the bear spray in your hand in case a bear suddenly approached.

$$$$

 

[Birchwood]

Somehow I think he is speaking metaphorically. I dont know, I just get that feeling!!!!

Yes probably

 

[scott b]

As American citizens we have the right to bear arms , many like myself also believe it is a responsibility . The choice is a very personal one , but there is a lot that people just dont understand . If someone is buying a gun for the sole purpose of self protection , they need to ask themselves if they are really capable or willing to shoot at and possibly kill another human regardless of the situation ! With the exception of bodily harm to yourself or a family member , nothing will justify discharging a firearm in our country for purposes of self defense . There are numerous cases where home owners have caught shot and killed criminals in there own homes , and still faced criminal prosecution .

90 percent of the people that buy guns for home defense just aren't equipped physically or emotionally to carry out the act of shooting someone . Even top ranked shooters that shoot weekly are shaken at best when confronted with the stress of split second decisions like this , and that is why many folks find themselves looking down the wrong end of the barrel of there own gun !

On another popular RV website there was a post about a guy who had his Honda 2000 stolen and how to better secure it ...pretty soon you had knuckleheads claiming thats why they carry a gun. .really ? These cowboys are going to risk jail for 20 years or more for a generator.?

Non lethal Bear spray is Nasty , Nasty stuff , it throws a big pattern over 30 feet and will drop any man to the ground , certainly long enough to subdue the threat . I agree with Jim , I would take the fine or a few days in jail over a lifetime of regret .

I don't come on here much and I know people have very strong feelings when it comes to this topic , but i felt compelled to express the real life side of this issue. You can agree or disagree but there is no denying the fact that 99.9 percent of the time ,that once you brandish a firearm whether you pull the trigger or not , you are in for trouble you could never imagine.

I am by all definition a professional shooter and have been around guns and gun people my whole life just so you know that my words are not based on speculation.

Anyone can shoot and hit something with a spray bottle like Bear spray at 20 or 30 feet , very few can do the same with a gun at the practice range let alone under duress .

Hope everyone stays safe , smart and has a great weekend.....PS ..Go buy some Bear Spray . Scott

 

[Jim.Allison]

Scott. You forgot a lifetime of financial ruin!!!!! Along with the regret.

 

[dave10a]

People have the right to protect themselves and bear arms, but these days you need a lawyer to do so properly.

 

[JanAndBill]

Scott a lot of what you say is true, however to add to your comments, not all threats are equal. There's a big difference for example in using non-lethal defenses against an aggressor in an open area where you have the option to flee, and an aggressor who has just broke into your house in the middle of the night. If someone has just broken into my house in the middle of the night, I am going to: #1 assume they mean to do me or my family harm or they wouldn't risk breaking in with someone in the house, #2 I will not hesitate to pull the trigger, without warning, and with the full intent that they will not survive the encounter, because my failure to do so puts my family at risk. Now if they're in my yard, that's a different story. Different circumstances require different responses.

 

[scott b]

Bill , I agree with you about your scenario about a break in as well as your intent to use deadly force , however the political climate in which we now live Will Not . A man back east recently had been broken into twice bu the same two people , he prepared himself and the third time was the charm ..he shot and killed them In his home ...he is now in prison . This proves my point that no matter what you know about the law or what we as people think is right or wrong , doesn't mean squat , ever changing laws and criminal rights advocates are going to make sure that your life as you once knew it are over .
Look at all the cases of Police harassment in the news lately . 98 percent of these cases are or involve a certain ethnic group that believe that they have No obligation to interact with Police when questioned . You and I have been taught to pull over when we see red lights behind us , to provide ID to officers , to cooperate when questioned. ..And sadly so have these people , but because of the same advocates I spoke of before these people are in some cases excused , others get killed . Don't believe for a minute that you or anyone else is immune from criminal prosecution for using a weapon to stop a crime . The poor Police we hire to protect and serve are now under a microscope for doing there jobs .

Have a great Sunday ...Scott

 

[Jim.Allison]

Move to Texas we don't have to put up with stuff like that in Texas. Breaking into my "habitation" is "prima facie' evidence that you intend to do harm. Texas Castle Doctrine.

 

[JanAndBill]

I guess the point I'm trying to make Scott is that "legal consequences for myself" would never be a consideration when it comes to protecting my family. I wouldn't be able to live on anyhow if I knew that my wife or child died, because I was thinking about "legal consequences" instead of acting on the threat. Again it's the nature of the threat. Property can be replaced, that's why I carry insurance, the lives of my family can't and there's no room for second guessing when someone invades your home, while you are there. Alabama not only reinforced the Castle Doctrine, but expanded it in the 2013 Stand Your Ground revision, to include areas outside the home. One of the murky areas has to do with the use of deadly force on a law enforcement officer who enters your home without identification.

 

[JohnDar]

The case of the homeowner that killed the two repeat burglars involved the fact that he was waiting for them and the way they were shot heavily indicated more of an execution rather than surprise and suddenly having to defend himself.

 

[Rmcgrath53]

WITH the threat of isis doing something here in the us, most likely in the southwest states. We all should carry a gun. All a terrorist would have to do is get on a freeway that is jammed up and take cars out and bottle neck a jam up, then just walkalong and start dropping people right there. A gun should be with u while on the freeway.there are 6,000 Muslims students that, are right now, un accountable for. Isis has money to bankroll any kind of attack. Better be safe than not.

 

[Jim.Allison]

Can a Candybar and a Coke be a weapon of self defense?

But really, in disaster mode, a weapon is not a bad idea, but what weapon? I will leave the creation of the scenario to the reader and put forth this;

I read one man's account of the evacuation New Orleans after Katrina. He had some interesting ideas about weapons and what to carry. He asserted that in addition to a firearm, extra food was actually a better, and more likely weapon against violence. He argued that having a box of candy bars/energy bars, and bottled water strictly for the purpose of GIVING away or to intentionally expose to theft, would go further in protecting you and your own food supplies, than would a bullet. From his research/experience he said that you would be more likely assaulted, and disarmed by police than by your fellow citizens. And that the water and energy bars would satisfy the largest numbers of people who would do violence against you. This falls under the study of mega-disaster and is a subject of deep study, survival and self defense is sometimes counterintuitive in these scenarios.

WITH the threat of isis doing something here in the us, most likely in the southwest states. We all should carry a gun. All a terrorist would have to do is get on a freeway that is jammed up and take cars out and bottle neck a jam up, then just walkalong and start dropping people right there. A gun should be with u while on the freeway.there are 6,000 Muslims students that, are right now, un accountable for. Isis has money to bankroll any kind of attack. Better be safe than not.