How Necessary is a Weapon?

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HornedToad

Well-known member
Since there are an estimated, keyword estimated, about 275 to 300 million guns in the US...

Mathematically that would mean every man, woman & child in the US owns a gun...
or could it be that the most gun enthusiast own several guns or some many more.
(my brother in law has several hundred, including to this day many of the ones I got rid of)

Again mathematically, if the average gun owner has several weapons, what are the statistics???

I respect & vote for everyone's right to bear arms as written into our constitution,
and appreciate that I can decide not to carry.
 

Jim.Allison

Well-known member
65% of households don't have guns Pew Research
50% of households don't have gun Gallup (older)
Gun ownership ha been decreasing in the U.S. Federal Government Statistics

The most likely event of gun ownership is injury or fatality of someone in your household
Gun deaths in the U.S.will exceed traffic deaths by 2015 and become the second major cause of violent death (poisoning will remain first)

Murder rates in modern industrialized countries are highly correlated with gun ownership.

Yes, you can bury your head, but we have a problem


Its not about stats anyway. You will never convince me that the likely outcome of owning a gun is having an accident involving your own family member. There are people killed by felons (who are prohibited from owning firearms) every night in this country. Accidents involving family members are rare. 67% of the 12,000 murders in the USA involve guns, 33% involve other weapons. If there were no guns, what percent of murders would occur using other weapons then? You mis the point, a gun is a defense weapon. The Colt Model P. Peacemaker, 1873 did not become known as the "peacemaker" for no reason. As far as stats in 2010, 606/300,000,000 of the population were killed by a gun in the home (by accident). in that same year 12,000/300,000,000 were murdered and 67 percent of those were murdered by a firearm. The rest were murdered by blunt instrument, drowning or getting beaten to death.
If you are speaking of murder, then there is little cause to carry a gun to prevent one, 12-13k per year in the USA is a very small percentage.

A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:

• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"
• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"

I said you missed the point, what I mean by that is; NOT that owning
a gun does not pose a risk, because it does. First and foremost; it can be taken away from you and used against you or family member. Failure to retain your gun is a serious matter, if you own one you better be prepared to use it, or don't pull it out. If you do not know how and when to use it, don't buy one and certainly don't carry one. BUT if you are traveling around the country and stopping in at a roadside park, or a truck stop, or you are traveling on the interstate, you are involved with some of the most desperate criminals in the USA. They are good at what they do, they know us better than we know ourselves, they know us by the way we carry ourselves, they know we have money or valuables that they can get and sell or exchange for narcotics. We are marks to them. And if you don't realize this you are in jeopardy. You own a rig that you can take from the farthest reaches of Alaska to the Southern tip of Texas and back up to Main and all point in between. You are fooling yourself if you think that you haven't ever been noticed by a criminal as a potential mark. We live in a completely different world, a world where people help each other and a world where we WANT to trust, a world of peace. Our world is completely different than that of a criminal. They know our world, it is their business to know our world, it is us that do not know their world.

This thread examines the notion of traveling armed. As a former Law Enforcement officer, I will tell you that if you are traveling the interstate hwy system east or west your are traveling with some of the most dangerous criminals in the United States, and of late I-35 and I-37. And yes they do have their eyes on you. One thing that is often overlooked is the average criminal behind bars has committed 100's of crimes before he/she was finally convicted and imprisoned. I will also tell you that people that are addicted to narcotics can look like a innocent lady with a flat tire or a college boy with an overheated car. Our instinct is to help, theirs is to take your wallet maybe even your life. If you can't own and operate a long arm (not hand gun) then you must find ways to present an air of confidence, and eliminate all indications that you are vulnerable and watch your step. I hope you don't mind if I discretely carry my 12 ga with my head out of the sand, cause I don't mind if you don't carry. BTW as far as stats are concerned, you must read the actual stat, not what someone is presenting you. Never look for a stat that supports your argument look for stats that oppose your argument, you might learn something that has not been presented to you before. In this manner you can keep from burying your head as you put it.
 

jmgratz

Original Owners Club Member
Just Curious as to where you get the data to support this part of your statement. ( More people have been killed or injured by knives and clubs that guns) ?????????

No positive research but just personal observations during my 35 years as a Law Enforcement Officer. BTW in my observations more people have been killed and/or injured by the 'Saturday Night Specials' (small inexpensive .22 cal revolvers) than any other firearms. As any LEO to confirm that.
 

Shortest Straw

Caught In A Mosh
65% of households don't have guns Pew Research
50% of households don't have gun Gallup (older)
Gun ownership ha been decreasing in the U.S. Federal Government Statistics

The most likely event of gun ownership is injury or fatality of someone in your household

Gun deaths in the U.S.will exceed traffic deaths by 2015 and become the second major cause of violent death (poisoning will remain first)

Murder rates in modern industrialized countries are highly correlated with gun ownership.

Yes, you can bury your head, but we have a problem

Do you really think survey's are the end all truth? You are posting survey's that say what you want to say and what you believe yourself. There are 100's more that say the opposite of what you believe. That proves nothing. Many folks are not going to admit to owning a gun of any sort simply because many of them feel that this democrat fueled government is doing whatever it can to take peoples guns away. Let us scare folks with statistics. There is also a gallup poll showing the east and west coasts have the smallest gun ownership rates, and also have the highest number of people who want to takes everyone's guns away than compared with the middle of the country. Maybe I can believe that considering where you are from. I have met folks on the east coast who had never been outside of a 20 block radius of their home, ever. These same people want to take guns away from people who they will never meet and have zero idea of how they live. How is that right?? For anyone thinking that the police are there to protect you, read up on Warren v. District of Columbia or Castle Rock v. Gonzales. According to American Police Beat, the average response time for an emergency call is 10 minutes. Atlanta has the worst response time with 11 to 12 minutes and Nashville comes in at a lightning speed of 9 minutes. Even though the Department of Justice determined that the average police response time to a 911 call is 4 minutes, the average interaction time between a criminal and his victim is 90 seconds.

"Yes, you can bury your head, but we have a problem"

Yes we do. We have a problem when people think that if we disarm law abiding citizens that everyone will be safer. We have a problem when people think that criminals obey laws. We have a problem because people think that calling 911 will save them. We have a problem when people who believe something, try and force those belief's on everyone else. We have a problem because people believe that guns kill people and not that people kill people. We have a problem when people blame guns and not the way our society has changed. We have a huge problem when the mental health issues behind most mass killers is not addressed on a national scale. And we have a problem, the biggest IMO, that folks who do not want others to own guns simply are selfish and only care about themselves. There is a huge problem with not caring about your fellow man, neighbor etc. in society today.

You can temporarily make yourself feel safer by taking everyone's guns away, but how safe will you really feel knowing that the criminals know you are not armed and can enter your home without the fear of repercussion?
 

jimtoo

Moderator
OK,,, we are now getting political. So lets all back off, take a couple of refreshing deep breaths, and relax for a while.

Jim M
 

porthole

Retired
Funny, it's been widely report in all the legitimate media.

Oxymoron?


Gun ownership ha been decreasing in the U.S. Federal Government Statistics

Directly proportional to the rate of people immigrating to this country maybe?

Gun deaths in the U.S.will exceed traffic deaths by 2015 and become the second major cause of violent death (poisoning will remain first)

Directly proportional to the rate of DUI-DWI enforcement increases and the reality that it is not just OK to drink and drive?

Murder rates in modern industrialized countries are highly correlated with gun ownership.

Which Modern industrialized countries would those be?

likely outcome of owning a gun is having an accident involving your own family member.

I'd like to see us not use the word accident. There are no accidents involving guns or accidental discharges etc. Incidents related to that are a failure to follow rules.
If the 4 basic rules of firearm safety are followed 100% of the time there would be no "accidents"


If there were no guns, what percent of murders would occur using other weapons then?

One only has to do a bit of research across the pond and see just how the UK stacks up against us.
 

jimtoo

Moderator
I hope I never need to use any of my weapons. But as this article reveals, RV parks are not immune to crimes with guns.

Gunman Opens Fire Killing 3 people and Wounding a Child at Local RV Park

http://www.kiiitv.com/story/2653019...-people-and-wounding-a-child-at-local-rv-park

Before this gets to far,,, this is NOT AN RV PARK as we know rv parks. It is 90% full time, long time residents of trailers. It is not some place you would drive up and get a space. The people had lived there 10 and 15 years. The shooter hung himself in jail by using the pants legs and desk or table. This was an ongoing disagreement between the families.

aerial view from Google...
 
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Jim.Allison

Well-known member
This sounds like a place you might get into when your GPS is fouling up......lol. My GPS took me through a ghetto while taking me to a popular name brand fuel station. ITs difficult to get a rig out of a ghetto once you get in there. because the streets are narrow. The folks in there are not really bad people, they will help you out. LOL. But at first they think you are a new family moving in after having won the lottery.
I hope I never need to use any of my weapons. But as this article reveals, RV parks are not immune to crimes with guns.

Gunman Opens Fire Killing 3 people and Wounding a Child at Local RV Park

http://www.kiiitv.com/story/2653019...-people-and-wounding-a-child-at-local-rv-park
 

DW_Gray

Well-known member
Before this gets to far,,, this is NOT AN RV PARK as we know rv parks. It is 90% full time, long time residents of trailers. It is not some place you would drive up and get a space. The people had lived there 10 and 15 years. The shooter hung himself in jail by using the pants legs and desk or table. This was an ongoing disagreement between the families.

aerial view from Google...

Thanks for the clarification, Jim.
 
We live full time off-grid in our 5er, we boondock 6 months out of the year and on our off-grid property the other 6. The 6 that we travel/boondock, we're normally as far away as possible from others. We carry firearms with us based on being where we boondock we know we are the only ones that can protect us in the event that someone sees a nice new truck/RV and assumes that there is something of value in it, making us a target. We know and understand the risks and just like any other form of insurance we hope we never need to use it.
 

Jim.Allison

Well-known member
Always remember your security depends on the criminal believing that you might be armed, in other words you are secure because enough people around you own and carry guns, that the bad guys fear the risk of being shot while acosting you, because you might own and have a gun. Its kind of like flu shots, if everyone around you has been inoculated then your chance of getting the flu is much less, you should thank me that I own and carry it, you are safer because of it.

What does paranoia have to do with carrying a gun?

As a retired Border Patrol Agent, I can tell you that I have arrested some very vicious people right outside of prestigious RV parks, in national parks and forest where people were camped, on BLM lands just yards from parked RVs and campers, the number of drug smugglers that I have arrested at roadside parks and rest areas numbers into the hundreds, and that is just one agent, how many experiences do you think that 16,000 BPA agents add up to (not even talking about the local police, sheriffs and highway patrol), I remember one large drug bust that I participated in at a Walmart parking lot, the bad guy was hauling 2000 lbs in a 5th wheel. I was not familiar with RV's back then and I did not know why there were several RVs parked next to this one. I thought they were all smuggling narcotics or humans.

I was on the Mexican border but we have a Canadian border also, which is unique in that it is all bad guys that cross the border there, they are generally not looking for work (common on the southern border) but in the act of smuggling drugs or some other contraband, if circumstances arose they would be happy to "off you" and transport their stuff in your rig. After all who is going to stop them, you can't alert anyone because you are tied up in the trailer or worse, in the trailer and not tied up.

If you're comfortable not carrying a gun, then that is you, but don't insult others by implying that they are paranoid. But as long as we are talking about such things, the real question is how comfortable are you burying your head in the sand?

Be advised, because of our litigious society, my gun is for the protection of me and mine. It is not available to protect my neighbor, a store, a bank or anti gun fellow rv'r. But hey I will call 911 for you, and I will beg them to send someone right away.

Do you not realize that criminals are good at what they do. And when you are pulling that rig into a rest stop or rest area or fueling station, you have a large red X that says money. It says purse or wallet, food, vehicle. If you don't know this then you are out of touch and I'm sure that there is a psychological term for that too.

I know one thing is for sure, a tendency for unarmed people; is to call a man with a gun to come solve their problems for them. That would be fine if the bad guy would wait until the guy with the badge and gun show up, before they do what they do.

You might think that I advocate handguns for RV'rs but I don't, they are too troublesome and require too much attention to detail when crossing from one state to another. ITs alright for those that want to go through that much trouble, but my recommendation is a 12ga pump shotgun. NOTHING says I'm serious like the racking of a pump shotgun. Its far more effective than a handgun, a lot simpler to use, and the laws concerning them are fairly consistent in all 50 states, you can even pass through Canada with one. A shotgun owner is less likely to display it, for there is no mistake when a pump shotgun has been displayed and racked, you have to be real serious to pull it out in public. Not so much with a handgun, handguns are trouble in my opinion but let me be clear, I respect a mans right to carry as he sees fit. Handguns are just not for me, eventhough I have 2 1911's and a SW 686, and I'm a marksman and former firearms instructor at both the station level and at the academy level. I have given instruction and trained in SW 686 357, Beretta semi auto in 40 sw, M-16, M-4, 12 ga pump, UMP 40 and 9mm, ASP, side handle baton, and pepper spray. I have trained in weapons retention, disarming a perpetrator, and self defense.

I agree with the tenants of the magazine article, If you are hunting for someone to kill, then you should not carry any form of a firearm, you will create your opportunity to fulfill your own proficy, property is not the issue either, it is purely protecting your life or the life of a loved one or protecting yourself or another from grievous bodily harm. Stealing property is not a good reason to change my life permanently. And shooting someone will change you permanently, mentally and financially.

One thing that people do not realize unless they have been in the business, is the number of people driving our highways with EXTENSIVE criminal records. There are many criminals in our society that have a criminal record with 50 different arrest. But further, it takes hundreds of offenses in some cases before a criminal gets arrested and charged once, and the conviction rate is even less, a whole bunch of those charges are plead down and no prison time is ever served. Many bad guys are on probation and that is what keeps them straight. Almost anyone with an extensive criminal record has been arrested and convicted for at least one crime involving violence against another person. And the record only reflects the crimes that the public knows about.

Of late, I have become an advocate of "bear spray" as a defense weapon. It is highly effective non lethal defense weapon that merely makes the perpetrator wish he had been shot instead. Infact I think that one should have two cans of it. Once you splash it in their face, then one should follow them to the ground and make sure its all over their face and in their ears, you will be 150 miles away before they can open their eyes and breath again. And you will have a standby can. I would not bother calling the police, the criminal is not going to, so why should you.

Use your manners and refrain from calling names to people who are participating in a lawful constitutional endeavour of carrying weapons for defense purposes. I would never call someone with their head buried in the sand an idiot.

BTW, weapon or no weapon TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN.
If you intend to lay there while a bad guy has his way with you and your family then you don't have to do anything.

Neat thing about the constitution is it makes it very clear that you don't have to carry a gun if you don't want to.



How Necessary is a weapon?

I would say it all depends on what level of comfort or paranoia a person has with being out traveling and camping in unfamiliar places.

Here's a good write up: http://www.truckcampermagazine.com/newbie-articles/personal-safety-for-truck-campers-part-2
 
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Bohemian

Well-known member
"The best weapon is one you know how to use effectively and reliably and which your attacker will be unable to use on you."
 

argyll1st

Well-known member
OMG I had no idea about any if this , I travel in the US for around 2-3 months a year and had never considered any of this , I have a young family and I'm feeling rather foolish that I hadn't considered carrying a pump action shotgun with us, infact I should really have one in the cab of the truck as well incase someone tries to jack the truck, but what about when we are out shopping or at the movies, I would need something smaller, to think that I've been out in the US for all these occasions and not thought about any of this astounds me , I guess it's because I come from a country were handgun ownership is illegal.
 

Jim.Allison

Well-known member
The gun retention course is probably the most interesting course involved with firearms. I have been through it 3 times and taught it once. It is very difficult to retain a weapon in a controlled environment and even more difficult with a bad guy. I was always able to retain mine but I'm a very large man, getting my gun is not easy, many of my fellow students/agents lost theirs after a lengthy struggle, the coaches will not quit until they either get it or they realize it is not possible to get. You can imagine what it is like. I have done this with pepper spray involved as well. Try gun retention with pepper spray on you. But what is most telling about the gun retention exercise is that while you are having to retain your gun during a struggle you also have to defend yourself from punches, and weapons at the same time. The perp has control over what comes next, but what ever he does you have to retain that weapon as a priority.

So the upshot is, you are so right. You dont want the attacker to use the weapon on you, so get a weapon you can use and will use. That is why I like pepper spray because I have used it, but I don't like the small can, so I like a large can of bear spray. To me it is more effective, and non lethal. You don't need a license to carry the small can and your wife can have a can also. So if a struggle were to ensure she can hammer down with a squirt or two. I guarantee the perp will give up. If he does not then you should run like all get out. LOL


"The best weapon is one you know how to use effectively and reliably and which your attacker will be unable to use on you."
 

yport

Well-known member
I carry - with the secured, vaulted weapon - a copy of the Federal transportation laws (as suggested to me by a local law enforcement officer) showing chapter and section so that if questioned by some rookie cop in another state I can whip that out and refer him to it.

Also - most all now have smartphones - download the FREE great app "Legal Heat". It clearly tells you every states dos and don'ts, is quick to reference, and is updated very regularly. In addition, when a new state change is made you are sent an alert.
 
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